Do Protestants Believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins?

[steve_b]

My former independent Baptist church rejected the notion of there being levels of sin. All sin was considered the same. I well remember sitting in a long sermon that took that position, *but I never could reach the same point of view of my pastor. If you hold that view, it would seem you are saying murder and saying a curse word are equal in God’s eyes. *

No matter the sin, all a person had to so was to say a private prayer of repentance and the sin was forever forgiven and forgotten. There was no such thing as confession nor was there a such thing as God’s punishing a person for sins that had been forgiven in prayer. It was all over once the person repented and prayed.

one would have to ask

• Why make a special arrangement to breath on them (His apostles) specifically, and give them the Holy Spirit so that they could forgive and retain sins,[Jn 20:23] if all one had to do is say a private prayer and all would be forgiven?
• Why would John say, I don’t say one should pray about mortal sin for forgiveness? 1 Jn 5:17]

The Douay translation came from the Jerome Vulgate from the 4th century

James 5:
[14] Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
(footnote)[14] “Let him bring in”… See here a plain warrant of scripture for the sacrament of extreme unction, that any controversy against its institution would be against the express words of the sacred text in the plainest terms.
[16] Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. [17] Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. [18] And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. [19] My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: [20] He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
(footnote)[16] “Confess therefore your sins one to another”… That is, to the priests of the church, whom (ver. 14) he had ordered to be called for, and brought in to the sick; moreover, to confess to persons who had no power to forgive sins, would be useless. Hence the precept here means, that we must confess to men whom God hath appointed, and who, by their ordination and jurisdiction, have received the power of remitting sins in his name.

 

[Publisher]

While most Protestants would not necessarily make the “legalistic” distincition between “venial” and “mortal” sins, in principle most do believe the distinction is present.

Murder vs a “white lie”…both are sins…however murder is much more severe in that it goes way beyond the seriousness of the “white lie”.

I don’t know that any would claim that if asked “Do you like my dress?” and one answers “Yes.” when in fact they believe it’s hideous and very unflattering would equate that with the torture and murder of a person…one “white lie” may cause one’s conscience to “prick” even though the “intent” was to “save the feelings” of the one in the dress…taking a life is much more serious in that the former may not break one’s relationship with God…while the latter would since usually murder carries with it other “sins” such as anger, hate, rage…as well as “playing God” by deciding who lives and who dies.

So while “venial sins” and “mortal sins” are not in our vocabulary…“venial” and “mortal” sins do exist…and both types do impact our spiritual lives…but it seems to me…my 'sins" are compounded greatly should I be involved in “murder” rather than “trying to spare one’s feelings”.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t think that this description is really descriptive of an educated Protestant position, or an Eastern position. There is a sense in which it is true, and a sense in which it isn’t.

Most Orthodox are expected to go to Confession on a regular basis as directed by their confessor, or when something weighs on them and they feel/think it is creating a barrier. Some might tell you that the relationship of confession before communion is not as cut and dried as with the Roman church as well.

But I am never sure why Catholics find this odd. Given that there is no official Roman Catholic list of mortal and venial sins, how do you decide when you need to go to confession?

Scripture speaks of grave matter re: sin that leads to death(mortal) and sin that doesn’t.

Sins that specifically keep one from heaven are without saying,

• grave matter.
• these sins are listed. (I gave lists from scripture, on previous posts)
• The consequence from scripture, was also given
• Once one knows that the sin is grave, and the consequence for the sin is known, and one commits the sin, they have officially committed a mortal sin.

Re: Mortal sin, here is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[Georgia]

After making my first post on this topic, it occurred to me that my former independent Baptist church taught that all sins by the faithful were, in effect, venial. They believed in once-saved-always-saved (OSAS), so no sin could seperate a person from salvation.

If one believes that he is forever saved and will go through the pearly gates no matter his sin after “accepting Jesus as his personal savior”, all sin would have to be venial. The belief is that Heaven is guaranteed for the believer.

When viewed through the prism of OSAS, there is a logic to belief in one class of sin. Though I no longer accept OSAS since crossing the Tiber, I finally understand why some believe all sin to be on an equal footing. I disagree, but I understand why they make that assertion.

 

[Esdra]

PART I

Esdra,

Is it different for you than anyone else?

Well, let’s put it like this, I have problems with it, as I don’t have any experience with that…
I am not married (don’t even have a girlfriend yet!)… I think I can agree that adultery is a sin, and it does seperate us from God, but I also think if we repent and come to God in prayer over that issue, then he will also forgive that sin…
And, well, ALL friends/collegues (except of course the members of my Baptist Church I am attending), I know do have sex before marriage and I just can’t think that they’ll go to hell for that…
Here in Austria having no sex before marriage is seen very odd and “Middle Ages”… Also because of the fact that even marriage itself is not really common here and if young people marry, they certainly don’t do it because they otherwise wouldn’t be allowed to have sex…
As I said, a very difficult topic for me…
After a long time of thinking about that, I made the decision to make it dependent upon my future girlfriend: If I find a devout Christian girl, I’ll have no sex before marriage, and if it happens that I get a non-devout girl, or even an Atheist girl, I will talk about it with her, if she can accept it - good - if not, well, then not.

Mark 10:11

Mark 10:12

Luke 16:18

How serious is adultery?

I think it is serious, for the man, the woman as well as the children. But it does happen, every day in the world a 1000 times…
But I think it shouldn’t be punished with that severe punishment as the CC does (denying the Holy Communion…). Of course, asking for God for forgiveness is needed in that case. It is a sin that seperates us from Him…

• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10

btw, as you know adultery is also a married spouse having sexual relations outside their marriage.

Of course I know that - and that’s the most awful thing you can do in my opinion. I think it is most important that I can trust my future partner that she won’t have sex outside the marriage with me!

You know now, there is that distinction to sin, and there is sin (plural) that is mortal. It’s the same for EVERYONE.

I know, because you told me, yes. The other question is if I believe it. (which I probably won’t…) Sin is sin and evil in the sight of God.
Of course in society murder is seen more severe a trespassing than lying, but I firmly believe that for God a sin is a sin. - He doesn’t make a destinction there.
Did he make a distinction when letting Moses write down the 10 commandments? No, he didn’t.
I think God thinks in other terms than we humans do.

Why does John say, one can pray for non mortal sin and God forgives that sin? Why does John THEN say one shouldn’t do that for forgiveness of mortal sin?

You’re avoiding that question

I don’t know. (I can understand Luther now, why he wanted to remove some letters in the NT from his bible! It’s really uncomfortable…)
First of all, I don’t believe in the model of “mortal sin” as the Catholic Church does.
Now, the only “mortal sin”, for me, is the denying of the Holy Spirit (even Luther’s Bible makes a link to Mark 3:28-30 (KJV):

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

and actually I tend to disagree with John here that you shouldn’t pray for them (who deny the Holy Spirit see above).
You should indeed pray for them so that they come back to our Father in Heaven. (And this is what you’ll find in every “reborn Church” done!)
He wants everybody to be saved and if this person comes back to Him, He will be as happy as, as the father in Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son. (Luke 15:11-31). But He also let’s us humans our free will, as he the father in the parable did in the parable.
Isn’t the whole Baptist movement with all it’s various denominations based upon that? Have you ever heard a conversion story of a Baptist or a Pentecostal or any other “Church of reborns”?
I hope, now I have finally answered your question!

**
A return question** for you: What does a Catholic do to get rid of a mortal sin in the sense of the CC, as well as in the sense of how I have written here, if he wants to turn back from his sinful lifestyle, if one shouldn’t pray for him, as John writes?

specific sins were identified that keep one from heaven if one dies with them on their soul. There are many of those sins

, not just one. Although as a catagory those sins mentioned are mortal sin

Every sin keeps us away from God and period!

Sin is both singular and plural.

No actually not, in English sin is singular and sins is plural! I must know, I have studied English grammar in depth in my Translation Studies!

**Question to the guy that knows Greek: Is in the original Greek the word ***sin unto death ***** in 1 John 5:16 singular or plural or both?

All those sins I listed are mortal.

Now you know differently. Now you should educate your protestant pastor.

For you as a protestant, that’s correct. It’s a consequence of protestantism.

A point we can agree on, wow, I am impressed!
**
to be continued…**

 

[Esdra]

PART II

Priesthood of believers, is not the same as a ministerial priest validly ordained by a valid bishop in apostolic succession.

For me it is the same. There is no ministerial priesthood as in the CC. In the New Covenant something like that isn’t needed anymore.

If you do something against me, I can forgive you of that. But if you do something to another, and ask me for forgiveness of that, I can’t forgive you of that, and I can’t give you absolution for that. If you commit mortal sin(s), I can’t forgive you for that. I can’t give you absolution, THAT’S the point!!! It requires a validly ordained priest with the powere to forgive or retain sin.

Well, I maybe can’t forgive you if you have sinned against guanophore, but I can encourage you to pray to the Lord and tell you that He will forgive your sin and I can say to you: Go to guanophore and ask him for forgiveness. And I can offer you to pray with you together. (As John writes, btw., in his first letter what we originally have discussed! )
I am convinced that also a validly ordained (Catholic) priest couldn’t forgive your sin against guanophore. The only one who can forgive sins is God. And a Catholic priest is not (a) God! A priest can only, as everyone else, pray to God to forgive you, but not forgive you himself (if you haven’t sinned against him) and he actually should also encourage you to ask guanophore for forgiveness. And it’s also nice if he tells you, “Bring this to the cross, to Jesus and God. And he will forgive you.” (This is what our pastor once said as I told the community that I have sinned, “Father thank you that you have forgiven *Esdra * this sin. He repents and prayed to you. Thank you for your mercy!” (or similar)).

When Jesus said after ordaining His apostles, He breathed on them, said recieve the Holy Spirit, whose sins YOU forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained, that’s a power THEY received. NOT you or I. Jesus wasn’t speaking to the entire planet when He gave that power. He gave that specifically to His apostles. The power was specific to those He ordained and to those they ordained, and to those who were ordained in THAT line of succession.

I don’t have an answer to that right now… It was REALLY exhausting writing this post.
I am not a theologian, but I tried my best to state the “reborn Churches” position…

in Christ,

 

[steve_b]

PART I

I am not married (don’t even have a girlfriend yet!)… I think I can agree that adultery is a sin, and it does seperate us from God, but I also think if we repent and come to God in prayer over that issue, then he will also forgive that sin…

What about someone who is in a remarriage situation after a divorce? What do THEY do?
E:

And, well, ALL friends/collegues (except of course the members of my Baptist Church I am attending), I know do have sex before marriage and I just can’t think that they’ll go to hell for that.…

The sin you discribe is a mortal sin. “no fornicator…will enter heaven” [Eph 5:3-5]

No one knows when they will die. What if they suddenly died today? God forbid, a car accident, or were hit crossing the street, etc etc or maybe tonight, die in their sleep? One might not have even a nano second to think about the state of their soul before they die. What usually happens, they die in the same frame of mind they live by. If that is in mortal sin, Scripture says they won’t enter heaven?
A:

Here in Austria having no sex before marriage is seen very odd and “Middle Ages”… Also because of the fact that even marriage itself is not really common here and if young people marry, they certainly don’t do it because they otherwise wouldn’t be allowed to have sex…

God eternalizes the directon a soul is going in. All we can do is 1st make sure our own soul is is right with God, then try and be a good influence to others for their soul. Ultimately, It’s their choice whether they pay attention to correction.
E:

As I said, a very difficult topic for me…
After a long time of thinking about that, I made the decision to make it dependent upon my future girlfriend: If I find a devout Christian girl, I’ll have no sex before marriage, and if it happens that I get a non-devout girl, or even an Atheist girl, I will talk about it with her, if she can accept it - good - if not, well, then not.

Good for you
E:

I think it is serious, for the man, the woman as well as the children. But it does happen, every day in the world a 1000 times…
But I think it shouldn’t be punished with that severe punishment as the CC does (denying the Holy Communion…). Of course, asking for God for forgiveness is needed in that case. It is a sin that seperates us from Him…

restricting one from the Eucharist who is in mortal sin, is to keep that soul from compounding their mortal sin with a sacralege on top of that .
E:

I know, because you told me, yes. The other question is if I believe it. (which I probably won’t…) Sin is sin and evil in the sight of God.

We aren’t disagreeing that all sin is wrong. We seem to be disagreeing that, not all sin is deadly to grace in the soul. As you know, I used John’s words, not mine.
E:

Of course in society murder is seen more severe a trespassing than lying, but I firmly believe that for God a sin is a sin.

In the Old Testament,(OT) ALL sin kept a soul out of heaven, even the little sins. Jesus hadn’t opened heaven yet so no one coulg go to heaven. Adam and Eve closed heaven to all humans. That is NOT the situation in the NT. And the conditions of sin being forgiven, is clearly spelled out for minor sins and mortal sins…
E:

• He doesn’t make a destinction there.
  Did he make a distinction when letting Moses write down the 10 commandments? No, he didn’t.
  I think God thinks in other terms than we humans do.

Don’t confuse testaments on this.
E:

I don’t know. (I can understand Luther now, why he wanted to remove some letters in the NT from his bible! It’s really uncomfortable…)
First of all, I don’t believe in the model of “mortal sin” as the Catholic Church does.

Scripture clearly states that the Catholic position is correct.
E:

Now, the only “mortal sin”, for me, is the denying of the Holy Spirit (even Luther’s Bible makes a link to Mark 3:28-30 (KJV):

You’re not exempt anymore than I’m exempt from what scripture clearly states.

If a sin has the ability to send a soul to hell, that by definition is a mortal sin. Look at all the sins scripture listed that qualify as (deadly) mortal sin. There are MANY. As you’ll also notice, the sexual sins were the ones mentioned most.

btw, did you notice in the lists of sins I posted from scripture, that one who divides from the Church also commits mortal sin?

Speaking of Luther, (and all those who broke from the Catholic Church) These passages were as valid for Luther as they are today, just as when Paul wrote them ~58 a.d.

• Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
• Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that *those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. *

 

[steve_b]

PART II

For me it is the same. There is no ministerial priesthood as in the CC. In the New Covenant something like that isn’t needed anymore.

If you’re up to reading a few articles, check these out.

Tim Staples, catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp
Tim Staples, catholic.com/thisrock/2010/1003btb.asp
E:

Well, I maybe can’t forgive you if you have sinned against guanophore,
but I can encourage you to pray to the Lord and tell you that He will forgive your sin and I can say to you: Go to guanophore and ask him for forgiveness. And I can offer you to pray with you together. (As John writes, btw., in his first letter what we originally have discussed! )

I am convinced that also a validly ordained (Catholic) priest couldn’t forgive your sin against guanophore. The only one who can forgive sins is God.

That’s the same charge made against Jesus by the pharasees. When Jesus said the following do you believe Him?

Jn 20:21 *As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. *23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Keep in mind Esdra,

Protestantism doesn’t have any of this. The Catholic Church does, because it’s the Church Jesus established and made His promises to.

Keep in mind, when you read scripture, know that when Paul writes to the Romans, he’s writing to the Church of Rome. This Church is already there at the time Paul writes to it. He compliments the Romans on their obedience of faith, and that their faith has been reported throughout the world as an example. This is the chair of Peter. Do you doubt Jesus holds anything back from His Church?
E:

I don’t have an answer to that right now… It was REALLY exhausting writing this post.
I am not a theologian, but I tried my best to state the “reborn Churches” position…

in Christ,

that’s okay. Keep at it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

All sin is wrongdoing but there is sin that is not mortal.(does not lead to death) [1 Jn 5:17]

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 3:4[/BIBLEDRB]

The distinction is in scripture. It’s absolutely clear.

The West views sin as transgressions against God. A crime. The East views it something different. A disease, also a failing in trying to achieve our goal in life which is to share in the Divine Nature of God. When we sin, we fail to be like God as Christ has commanded us. Its like a half empty, half full kind of perspective. The West sees sin as something you have done wrong. The East sees sin as something you have failed in doing what is right.

How do you know, then, whether or not you need to go to confession before taking communion?

The Eastern way is to have a spiritual father or mother (doesn’t have to be clergy) who will guide you. You will be advised if you need to go to confession. In some instances, your spiritual father can also be your confessor (thus a priest).

I don’t know about all Eastern Catholics. As a Chaldean Catholic, I believe we have a distinction between mortal and venial sins. I may be wrong on this but I am confident that if I were to ask the Chaldean priests, they would say that there is a distinction. Your post is making me curious now. Hmmm…

Have you compared what is taught in the Assyrian Church of the East? I know especially here in North America, Latinizations have been picked up because its common knowledge and easier to teach.

Interesting information. So do the Orthodox then also believe (similar to Protestants) that all sins are the same evil in the sight of god?

As noted above, the East has a different concept of sin based on our Theology on how salvation is achieved.

 

[steve_b]

1 John 3:4 (Douay Rheims)

4 Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity; and sin is iniquity.

pretty much what 1 Jn 5:17 says, except John further defines what he is teaching
C:

The West views sin as transgressions against God. A crime. The East views it something different. A disease, also a failing in trying to achieve our goal in life which is to share in the Divine Nature of God.

sin is ALWAYS a transgression against God (see Rom 5:14 & Acts 9:4 that follows)
The Catholic Church doesn’t view all sin as crime. Some yes. ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=crime&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Sin is Transgression against God:
**Rom 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Even if we sin against our neighbor, sin is ALWAYS a transgression against God,
When Paul(Saul) persecuted the Church what did Jesus say to him?
Saul, Saul why do you persecute ME Acts 9:4)
C:

When we sin, we fail to be like God as Christ has commanded us. Its like a half empty, half full kind of perspective. The West sees sin as something you have done wrong. The East sees sin as something you have failed in doing what is right.

seems you’re trying to make a distinction between omission and deed.
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=omission&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
C:

The Eastern way is to have a spiritual father or mother (doesn’t have to be clergy) who will guide you. You will be advised if you need to go to confession. In some instances, your spiritual father can also be your confessor (thus a priest).

you go to a non clergy to tell them what you’ve done and THEN you go or don’t go to confession based on what THEY say?

 

[Bluegoat]

you go to a non clergy to tell them what you’ve done and THEN you go or don’t go to confession based on what THEY say?

Well, does this seem less sensible than looking at a list which supposedly tells you what sins are mortal and venial, when the Latin Church actually teaches that no such list exists? A spiritual adviser knows the individual intimately and can give advice on that basis, unlike some list which is only ever an approximate kind of answer.

 

[steve_b]

Well, does this seem less sensible than looking at a list which supposedly tells you what sins are mortal and venial, when the Latin Church actually teaches that no such list exists? A spiritual adviser knows the individual intimately and can give advice on that basis, unlike some list which is only ever an approximate kind of answer.

There’s no mystery here. The Catholic Church and Scripture aren’t conflicted on mortal sin.

For example:

• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Does one need an interpretor to understand that warning? Or that any sin there, that prevents one from inheriting heaven, is grave matter, as in deadly, as in a mortal sin?
Can one in their own mind disagree with what Paul said here because it’s inconvenient to one’s lifestyle, and therefore, reduce for themselves, any of these grave sins to a misdemeanor? I’m sure people do that all the time. It’s a stupid move because the HS is inspiring Paul to write that warning, ergo we know how God will judge the person who doesn’t heed the warning and dies in that sin. And since none of us knows when we will die, it’s not a smart thing to have one’s soul full of mortal sin…true?

Now look at these sins that follow. Do you doubt these are grave matter? Just look at the consequences. Is one conflicted over understanding what fornication, adultery, prostitution, lust, orgies, drunkenness, homosexual offenders, murder, etc etc means? I think it’s pretty clear.

1. • Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
   • Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
   • Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
   • Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
   • Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
   • 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
   • 1 Jn 3:15 you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
   All I did was open up scripture. Does one have to memorize all this or is one pretty much aware of what’s going on here after reading it once?
   
   Another example:
   Look at how many people live together without marriage. #'s 2, 3, 5, 6 above, say it’s grave sin. If today that person died after getting crunched on the freeway, or hit crossing a street by a drunk driver, or suffered a fatal heart attack in the night, yada yada, Paul’s warning is, and he’s inspired by the HS to make that warning, that person won’t be going to heaven.
   
   Here’s the followup issue. The condition AFTER confession of that sin, these people living together have to live seperately now or live like brother and sister. Will they realistically do it? Most people in such an arrangement probably don’t go to confession because they don’t want to make a mockery out of a sacrament. Ergo they have no intention of stopping what they are doing, ergo they walk around with mortal sin on their soul… iow, playing Russian roulette with their soul.

 

[Bluegoat]

There’s no mystery here. The Catholic Church and Scripture aren’t conflicted on mortal sin.

For example:

• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Does one need an interpretor to understand that warning? Or that any sin there, that prevents one from inheriting heaven, is grave matter, as in deadly, as in a mortal sin?
Can one in their own mind disagree with what Paul said here because it’s inconvenient to one’s lifestyle, and therefore, reduce for themselves, any of these grave sins to a misdemeanor? I’m sure people do that all the time. It’s a stupid move because the HS is inspiring Paul to write that warning, ergo we know how God will judge the person who doesn’t heed the warning and dies in that sin. And since none of us knows when we will die, it’s not a smart thing to have one’s soul full of mortal sin…true?

Now look at these sins that follow. Do you doubt these are grave matter? Just look at the consequences. Is one conflicted over understanding what fornication, adultery, prostitution, lust, orgies, drunkenness, homosexual offenders, murder, etc etc means? I think it’s pretty clear.

1. • Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
   • Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
   • Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
   • Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
   • Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
   • 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
   • 1 Jn 3:15 you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
   All I did was open up scripture. Does one have to memorize all this or is one pretty much aware of what’s going on here after reading it once?
   
   Another example:
   Look at how many people live together without marriage. #'s 2, 3, 5, 6 above, say it’s grave sin. If today that person died after getting crunched on the freeway, or hit crossing a street by a drunk driver, or suffered a fatal heart attack in the night, yada yada, Paul’s warning is, and he’s inspired by the HS to make that warning, that person won’t be going to heaven.
   
   Here’s the followup issue. The condition AFTER confession of that sin, these people living together have to live seperately now or live like brother and sister. Will they realistically do it? Most people in such an arrangement probably don’t go to confession because they don’t want to make a mockery out of a sacrament. Ergo they have no intention of stopping what they are doing, ergo they walk around with mortal sin on their soul… iow, playing Russian roulette with their soul.

1. 
   What is and is not a “mortal” sin is not depends on the person involved, the circumstances, and other factors. It is not possible to have one correct “list” of mortal and venial sins. A seemingly small sin can overtake a persons life on a daily basis and slowly separate one from God; a terrible crime can be much less serious if it is committed in an overwhelming passion or without real understanding. And those kinds of sins are often not repeated, and are hard to “miss” like the smaller sins that work to alienate us from God.
   
   To think that a list is going to give us clear guidance is crazy to me, and to many people - perceptive Catholics IME also realize this. So why you would think that an inanimate list is a good tool, whereas taking advice from a wise spiritual adviser who knows your struggles intimately is not, confounds me slightly. I think the list approach, which I see very often herer at CAF, tends to lead to ignoring supposedly “venial” sins that are actually having a serious impact of people’s souls, or issues with scrupulosity.

 

[steve_b]

What is and is not a “mortal” sin is not depends on the person involved, the circumstances, and other factors. It is not possible to have one correct “list” of mortal and venial sins.

That’s relativism.

When a specific sin has the consequence “won’t inherit heaven” and it’s given by an authoritative source, and now you know it, then you also KNOW based on that consequence, it’s a grave (deadly as in mortal) sin. And if you comit it after knowing this, then you’ve comitted a mortal sin…

Why are there specific lists?

Rom 7:7…I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

iow Paul said without specific rules identifying certain sin as grave, then there are no rules that are uniform for all. ergo What’s bad for me isn’t bad for you etc etc… That’s lunacy.
B:

A seemingly small sin can overtake a persons life on a daily basis and slowly separate one from God; a terrible crime can be much less serious if it is committed in an overwhelming passion or without real understanding. And those kinds of sins are often not repeated, and are hard to “miss” like the smaller sins that work to alienate us from God.

small sins can dispose one for big sins. But by themselves they aren’t the biggy sins, nor are they going to send one to hell like the big sins that specifically say, one won’t go to heaven with those on their soul at death. Scripture is crystal clear on this.
B:

To think that a list is going to give us clear guidance is crazy to me, and to many people - perceptive Catholics IME also realize this. So why you would think that an inanimate list is a good tool, whereas taking advice from a wise spiritual adviser who knows your struggles intimately is not, confounds me slightly.

Would you call Paul a wise spiritual guide? Does he give clear guidance here?
Is anything misunderstood here?

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
B:

I think the list approach, which I see very often herer at CAF, tends to lead to ignoring supposedly “venial” sins that are actually having a serious impact of people’s souls, or issues with scrupulosity.

No one is ignoring sin or discounting venial sin. But the idea that all sin is equally serious, is NOT scriptural.

 

[Bluegoat]

That’s relativism.

When a specific sin has the consequence “won’t inherit heaven” and it’s given by an authoritative source, and now you know it, then you also KNOW based on that consequence, it’s a grave (deadly as in mortal) sin. And if you comit it after knowing this, then you’ve comitted a mortal sin…

Why are there specific lists?

Rom 7:7…I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

iow Paul said without specific rules identifying certain sin as grave, then there are no rules that are uniform for all. ergo What’s bad for me isn’t bad for you etc etc… That’s lunacy.

small sins can dispose one for big sins. But by themselves they aren’t the biggy sins, nor are they going to send one to hell like the big sins that specifically say, one won’t go to heaven with those on their soul at death. Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Would you call Paul a wise spiritual guide? Does he give clear guidance here?
Is anything misunderstood here?

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

No one is ignoring sin or discounting venial sin. But the idea that all sin is equally serious, is NOT scriptural.

You do realize steve that the CC doesn’t give any authoritative lists of venial and mortal sins?

And it has nothing to do with relativism, nor is it just a matter of knowledge, though that is one factor. An individual could know murder is a serious sin, but in any particular circumstance it could still be less serious for other reasons.

This is pretty basic stuff, but I guess I am not surprised. There are many Catholics here who understand this, but they seem surprised when I tell them that many people are taught, as adults, to use this list approach.

This is the objection I have to making the differentiation between mortal and venial sin at all - it’s used as a crutch by priests who don’t bother to teach people how to really understand the concept in a mature way, and it lends itself strongly to misunderstanding. Which is why the Catholic East doesn’t use it, nor the Orthodox, nor Anglicans.

 

[Balian]

I appreciate those who have contributed to this discussion. I’m converting to the Catholic Church and was really having a difficult time with understanding the difference between mortal and venial sins. As one raised a Protestant I too, as many have noted here, never was taught that there were mortal sins and venial sins. Yes, it was common sense that something like murder was much more grave than telling a white lie but essentially a sin was a sin in the eyes of God.

I actually had been looking for a list of mortal sins like that which has been discussed mostly because in doctrinal statements I had found nothing beyond the three conditions for a mortal sin:

1. An act of grave matter that is…
2. Committed with full knowledge, and…
3. Deliberate consent.

Numbers 2 & 3 are easily understood but what I had difficulty with was who decides what constitutes a “grave” matter? That I suppose is what made me wish for a list.

I now have a much better understanding of the difference between mortal and venial as a result of reading this thread. Thanks again.

 

[heart4home]

PART I

And, well, ALL friends/collegues (except of course the members of my Baptist Church I am attending), I know do have sex before marriage and I just can’t think that they’ll go to hell for that…

This is where I become very confused by some Bible Believing Christians, who say that we are to take the Bible literally and solely and yet, then they don’t think God will send you to hell for things that he clearly lists as detestable or as in leading to death.

God wiped out our whole World and spared only Noah and his family, and yet you believe that He is incapable of sending somebody who is well aware that it is a SIN to commit adultery or have premarital sex to hell.

I’m not talking about somebody who has no knowledge, I’m talking about Bible Believing Christians that have full knowledge and commit the sin anyways. OF course the same goes for Catholics.

Is our God loving. YES. Is our God capable of sending people who do not follow His word to an eternity in HELL, yes I believe HE is.

 

[Esdra]

This is where I become very confused by some Bible Believing Christians, who say that we are to take the Bible literally and solely and yet, then they don’t think God will send you to hell for things that he clearly lists as detestable or as in leading to death.

God wiped out our whole World and spared only Noah and his family, and yet you believe that He is incapable of sending somebody who is well aware that it is a SIN to commit adultery or have premarital sex to hell.

I’m not talking about somebody who has no knowledge, I’m talking about Bible Believing Christians that have full knowledge and commit the sin anyways. OF course the same goes for Catholics.

Is our God loving. YES. Is our God capable of sending people who do not follow His word to an eternity in HELL, yes I believe HE is.

Uhm, just one remark: I think I am in some points a rather “liberal Bible Christian”.
So, please don’t generalize from me to other Bible Christian, unless of course you really know also others who think similar like me.

Yes, and exactly such points are the problem points.
Premarital sex and adultery ('though I rather tend that adultery is a sin than premarital sex) will send you to hell?
I guess I will talk with my pastor about that as well…
Same goes for same sex relationships. Such people will go to hell?
I just have problems with such a thinking…

 

[steve_b]

You do realize steve that the CC doesn’t give any authoritative lists of venial and mortal sins?

And it has nothing to do with relativism, nor is it just a matter of knowledge, though that is one factor. An individual could know murder is a serious sin, but in any particular circumstance it could still be less serious for other reasons.

This is pretty basic stuff, but I guess I am not surprised. There are* many Catholics* here who understand this, but they seem surprised when I tell them that many people are taught, as adults, to use this list approach.

This is the objection I have to making the differentiation between mortal and venial sin at all - it’s used as a crutch by priests who don’t bother to teach people how to really understand the concept in a mature way, and it lends itself strongly to misunderstanding. Which is why the Catholic East doesn’t use it, nor the Orthodox, nor Anglicans.

I already gave you a list from scripture. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8310886&postcount=71 While not complete, you get the idea

Now, here’s other Catholic sources besides scripture, to support the CC teaching

• Catholic encyclopedia, 7 [deadly/capital] sins are listed. Have you never heard the term 7 deadly sins? Pride, Avarice, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth, newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#II start reading from “division” you’ll also find that list in the [CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1866 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1866) .
• CCC search engine. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Just insert a term you want to look up

go back and compare that information with the scriptures I quoted earlier. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8310886&postcount=71 There’s no conflict here.

If a Catholic continues to argue about this, then it says more about THEM, than the teaching,

Since Anglicans are Prortestants you’re validating that you don’t believe in mortal and venial sin, even though it is clearly taught in scripture. EO are not Catholic, and they too apparantly think like you on this.

 

[steve_b]

Uhm, just one remark: I think I am in some points a rather “liberal Bible Christian”.
So, please don’t generalize from me to other Bible Christian, unless of course you really know also others who think similar like me.

Yes, and exactly such points are the problem points.
Premarital sex and adultery ('though I rather tend that adultery is a sin than premarital sex) will send you to hell?
I guess I will talk with my pastor about that as well….
Same goes for same sex relationships. Such people will go to hell?
I just have problems with such a thinking…

Esdra

Premarital sex, adultery and homosexual offenders carry the same penalty

Scripture is clear on these matters.

• premarital sex is fornication. Adultery is cheating on ones spouse, or divorce and remarriage… these sins are mortal. If one dies with them on their soul they won’t go to heaven
• homosexual offenders have the same fate. If they die with this sin on their soul they won’t go to heaven

Ephesians 5: 3-5 …no* fornicator* … has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 …adulterers, … homosexual offenders, will not inherit the kingdom of God.