Do Protestants Believe in Mortal Sins and Venial Sins?

[Bluegoat]

And so you figure that the Eastern Catholics, who do not use this distinction, are way off base? It isn’t a secret - Rome realizes that they do not describe it according to the Latin model.

 

[steve_b]

And so you figure that the Eastern Catholics, who do not use this distinction, are way off base?

Distinction in sin is right out of scripture. As I said previously, anyone who continues to argue with this, Catholic or otherwise says more about THEM than the teaching.
B:

It isn’t a secret - Rome realizes that they do not describe it according to the Latin model.

Which is?

 

[Bluegoat]

Distinction in sin is right out of scripture. As I said previously, anyone who continues to argue with this, Catholic or otherwise says more about THEM than the teaching.

Which is?

You are talking like a strict sola scriptura Protestant! Are you a convert? You must realize by now that in many - most - cases what is “obviously” right there in Scripture is not always so very obvious and clear.

The Eastern Catholics have a different way of understanding sin. They think of our relationship to God not in terms of some almost black and white binary system of venial and mortal sin, but in terms of theosis. The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion.

The problem for the way you are arguing this is that your own Catholic Church says the way the Eastern Catholics think about the subject and how they interpret the Scriptures is just as good as the Latin way.

 

[Esdra]

You are talking like a strict sola scriptura Protestant! Are you a convert? You must realize by now that in many - most - cases what is “obviously” right there in Scripture is not always so very obvious and clear.

The Eastern Catholics have a different way of understanding sin. They think of our relationship to God not in terms of some almost black and white binary system of venial and mortal sin, but in terms of theosis. The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion.

The problem for the way you are arguing this is that your own Catholic Church says the way the Eastern Catholics think about the subject and how they interpret the Scriptures is just as good as the Latin way.

Very nice post!

I think Latin Catholics are sometimes looking down a bit in the Eastern Catholics, as they believe some things differently. (Like mortal vs. venial sins - existing or not?)
I had once a look in the Eastern Catholic section here on CAF…

 

[steve_b]

You are talking like a strict sola scriptura Protestant! Are you a convert?

As it says, I’m a cradle Catholic. As you know, Catholics aren’t sola scriptura. But that doesn’t mean we diminish scripture in any way, or deny what is written. If you’ll notice the 3 sources of authority always mentioned by the CC is

• sctipture
• Tradition
• teaching magisterium of the CC

In my argument I used scripture, the catechism of the CC (teaching of the magisterium), and Tradition, to support the position. That’s Hardly a SS argument

btw. you do realize the bible is a Catholic book. It was written in, by and for the CC. If a Protestant uses the bible, they are merely using a Catholic set of books for their own purposes.
B:

You must realize by now that in many - most - cases what is “obviously” right there in Scripture is not always so very obvious and clear.

Not here. The Church has taught clearly on this subject
B:

The Eastern Catholics have a different way of understanding sin. They think of our relationship to God not in terms of some almost black and white binary system of venial and mortal sin, but in terms of theosis.

Ukranian Catholic Catechism scroll down 1 page to p 225
archive.org/stream/UkrainianCatholicCatechismOurFaith/Our_Faith_Byzantine_Catechism#page/n223/mode/1up/search/mortal+sin

Hit the (+ in the magnifying glass icon) to better view the page. You’ll see mortal and venial sin is clearly understood by Eastern Catholics.

Western & E Catholics believe in theosis. It’s not either/or. As Peter taught, among other attributes, make every effort to add knowedge/education to your faith, in ever increasing amounts. Don’t discount knowledge or let it sit stagnating, or you will be ineffective in your undertanding of Jesus. And if THAT happens, how can one advance in theosis? They can’t and that’s Peter’s point. [2 Pet 1:5… paraphrased]

Look up the passage for yourself. In the CC teaching, you’ll find the pope hits ALL the points that Peter mentions there.
B:

The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion.

You seem to ignore the fact that If one is in union with the pope they agree with the pope’s teaching even if they don’t use the same terms. They don’t oppose the pope. And as you can see from an Eastern Catholic Catechism, the Easten Catholics DO have an understanding of mortal and venial sins.

Don’t confuse E Orthodox with E Catholic.
B:

The problem for the way you are arguing this is that your own Catholic Church says the way the Eastern Catholics think about the subject and how they interpret the Scriptures is just as good as the Latin way.

The problem with your way of arguing this, is that you think the EC is arguing with the pope over this. Or that the EC thinks all sin is the same with no distincrion of matter or severity… I hope this educated you.

 

[steve_b]

Very nice post!

I think Latin Catholics are sometimes looking down a bit in the Eastern Catholics, as they believe some things differently. (Like mortal vs. venial sins - existing or not?)
I had once a look in the Eastern Catholic section here on CAF…

I think there’s too much disinformation and false witness being spread by non Catholics here.

 

[Esdra]

I think there’s too much disinformation and false witness being spread by non Catholics here.

By non-Catholics? But not by me, right?

I mean I haven’t posted that much in threads in the Eastern Catholic Forum…
That’s only what I realised when reading the one or other post…

 

[steve_b]

Actually,* the distinction is only found in Roman Catholicism*. Eastern Catholics do not traditionally have distinction between venial and mortal sins.

you DO speak of it and use it in your catechism.

P 224 Ukranian Catholic Catechism archive.org/stream/UkrainianCatholicCatechismOurFaith/Our_Faith_Byzantine_Catechism#page/n223/mode/1up/search/mortal+sin scroll 1 page to p225 use the (+) in the magnifying galss icon to read the page.

 

[Esdra]

PART I

What about someone who is in a remarriage situation after a divorce? What do THEY do?

That’s interesting: Just last Sunday a woman from our church witnessed that she is remarried (and thus is divorced).
Noone shouted, “You are a sinner, let’s stone her or so.”
I guess in the Reborn-Christian tradition it is so that if you ask Jesus for forgiveness, ALL sins will he forgive you then.
Because, as she said, she already had been a “Christian” (meaning a reborn-Christian) for two years at that time (when she got divorced).

The sin you discribe is a mortal sin. “no fornicator…will enter heaven” [Eph 5:3-5]

No one knows when they will die. What if they suddenly died today? God forbid, a car accident, or were hit crossing the street, etc etc or maybe tonight, die in their sleep? One might not have even a nano second to think about the state of their soul before they die. What usually happens, they die in the same frame of mind they live by. If that is in mortal sin, Scripture says they won’t enter heaven?

I don’t know, you see. That’s really a touchy topic for me…
Nearly everyone around me (except maybe my brothers and sisters in the Baptist Church) have sex before marriage…
I mean, even my sister, has had sex with her friend - and of course, they are not married yet. (They are still students and thus have no time and/or money to marry.)
Will she go to hell? Hopefully not, at least she is my sister!!

God eternalizes the directon a soul is going in. All we can do is 1st make sure our own soul is is right with God, then try and be a good influence to others for their soul. Ultimately, It’s their choice whether they pay attention to correction.

Very correct. I pretty hard had to learn that. After I have become a “Christian”, I had the feeling I had to tell EVERYBODY the Good News and expected that they become Christians too. But mostly I failed.
And then I learned that God Himself gave us our free will - he won’t force anybody to come to Him and so I also should act. That really helped me.

Good for you

Hm, I am not sure if you got that right: I mean, if it happens that I get to know an Atheist girl (or non-devout Christian, which is more likely, as most people here are at least on the paper Christian) and she will become my girlfriend, that I will think about having sex before marriage… Not that I will say, “No thank you, bye!”
I mean, I do hope that I get to know a devout Christian girl (in this case it is not even important which denomination she belongs to. - Most important that she is a devout Christian.). And, at least it should be like that, this question doesn’t come up…

restricting one from the Eucharist who is in mortal sin, is to keep that soul from compounding their mortal sin with a sacralege on top of that .

Well, the thing with the Eucharist…
Most priests here in Austria will also allow divorced men/women to recieve the Eucharist.
And in the Baptist context this question also doesn’t arise.
My pastor said, “If you are alright with Jesus, you are invited to His table and can partake.”

We aren’t disagreeing that all sin is wrong. We seem to be disagreeing that, not all sin is deadly to grace in the soul. As you know, I used John’s words, not mine.

Yes, you use/d John’s word. I’ve asked my pastor. And I am really wondering what he will answer. He’s been on holiday in Croatia until Sunday, and know he has 30 Emails to answer.
I will remember the question to ask him, if he doesn’t answer it anyway by answering my email, if all sins, if you don’t repent, are deadly.

In the Old Testament,(OT) ALL sin kept a soul out of heaven, even the little sins. Jesus hadn’t opened heaven yet so no one could go to heaven. Adam and Eve closed heaven to all humans. That is NOT the situation in the NT. And the conditions of sin being forgiven, is clearly spelled out for minor sins and mortal sins…

You are a hundred procent right concerning the OT.
Concerning the NT, I have to disagree. In my eyes, Jesus erased ALL sins. He, better said God, with Jesus as a mediator, is willing to forgive us ALL sins, if we repentfully confess them.
I am not talking about unconfessed sins here of course. That’s something completely different then…

Don’t confuse testaments on this.

I don’t, be sure. See above.

Scripture clearly states that the Catholic position is correct.

Well, the thing with correct. Who has the truth? We all have only parts of the truth,
as Paul writes,
"9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. " (1 Cor 13:9-13)

You’re not exempt anymore than I’m exempt from what scripture clearly states.

That’s all interpretation. You interpret our verses from 1 John Chapter 5 this way, and I the other…
**
to be continued…**

 

[Esdra]

PART II

If a sin has the ability to send a soul to hell, that by definition is a mortal sin. Look at all the sins scripture listed that qualify as (deadly) mortal sin. There are MANY. As you’ll also notice, the sexual sins were the ones mentioned most.

Every sin has the ability to send you to hell, unless she has been confessed (to God).

btw, did you notice in the lists of sins I posted from scripture, that one who divides from the Church also commits mortal sin?

Yes, I know, I will got to hell because I am not Catholic anymore…
Guan has told me that often enough.
But I am not divided from the One Church which is the Church of all believers! (And then with Guan I had a very lengthy discussion about that…)

Speaking of Luther, (and all those who broke from the Catholic Church) These passages were as valid for Luther as they are today, just as when Paul wrote them ~58 a.d.

• Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
• Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that *those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. *

The Lutheran Church (that arose because of Luther) is not a division.
Only another part of the One Church. Let’s take a parable: The Catholic Church is the foot and the Lutheran the hand.
One body - one Church. Same goes for all other CHRISTIAN (=trinitarian) denominations.

Okay, I got it. Sin is evil.
Most people who are not devout Christians do live like that and they will go to hell.
That’s really sad… My poor sister.

But as John writes, "18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. " (1 John 5:18)

And that’s, btw, the A and O of what Baptists teach. If you are REBORN, then will happen what John has written above…

 

[Esdra]

If you’re up to reading a few articles, check these out.

Tim Staples, catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp
Tim Staples, catholic.com/thisrock/2010/1003btb.asp

Sorry to tell you that, but I have already books of Scott Hahn at home (even in English), but I read a few pages and then just couldn’t stand it and layed the book aside. (And as I really love reading, this means something. Normally NO book is led aside by me.)
And I suppose the same will happen to these books of Staples…

That’s the same charge made against Jesus by the pharasees. When Jesus said the following do you believe Him?

Jn 20:21 As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

And again our communication problem: What Jesus says to the Apostles, is also true for EVERY believer. As the Apostles are the first Christian ever.

I will ask my pastor about that. I am not sure what to say, as we have already said that I can’t forgive your sins you did against for example Bluegoat (just an example, Blue. )

Man, you really challange me, Steve. I know so little in some important questions concerning Baptist theology…

Keep in mind Esdra,

Protestantism doesn’t have any of this. The Catholic Church does, because it’s the Church Jesus established and made His promises to.

Keep in mind, when you read scripture, know that when Paul writes to the Romans, he’s writing to the Church of Rome. This Church is already there at the time Paul writes to it. He compliments the Romans on their obedience of faith, and that their faith has been reported throughout the world as an example. This is the chair of Peter. Do you doubt Jesus holds anything back from His Church?

Did he? Didn’t he say EVERYTHING in His Word? (and thus religions like LDS or Islam is wrong, God has revealed unto us EVERYTHING in His word. He doesn’t hold back anything and then says, “Oh, I forgot, I’ll need a prophet my humans on earth don’t know this and that.”)
I guess he did already reveal to us everything we need to know to come to Him - in this world and in the world after this one.

that’s okay. Keep at it.

Trying my best, friend!

in Christ,

 

[steve_b]

By non-Catholics? But not by me, right?

right

:console:

However it could be interpreted by your agreement with Bluegoat, forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8326750&postcount=83 that you also agree with his disinformation…right?

When he said

“The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion”

He’s wrong. I quoted an Eastern Catholic Catechism that not only says they DO understand mortal and venial, but quote the same scripture passages I quoted. btw, the Ukranian Catholics are the largest of the Eastern Catholic rites.

Bluegoat is trying to start an argument where there isn’t one.

 

[Esdra]

right

:console:

However it could be interpreted by your agreement with Bluegoat, forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8326750&postcount=83 that you also agree with his disinformation…right?

When he said

“The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion”

He’s wrong. I quoted an Eastern Catholic Catechism that not only says they DO understand mortal and venial, but quote the same scripture passages I quoted. btw, the Ukranian Catholics are the largest of the Eastern Catholic rites.

Bluegoat is trying to start an argument where there isn’t one.

Mhm, no I think I don’t agree with him/her on the post itself.
But I wanted to say that some Latin Catholics here (not you steve.) believe that only because Eastern Catholics are Catholics, they aren’t allowed to have their traditions. (Like the Assyrian, the Greek tradition etc.)
I only got to know that when I was once in the EC forum discussing the canon of the OT…

 

[steve_b]

PART I

That’s interesting: Just last Sunday a woman from our church witnessed that she is remarried (and thus is divorced).
Noone shouted, “You are a sinner, let’s stone her or so.”
I guess in the Reborn-Christian tradition it is so that if you ask Jesus for forgiveness, ALL sins will he forgive you then.
Because, as she said, she already had been a “Christian” (meaning a reborn-Christian) for two years at that time (when she got divorced).

Does it make sense to you that if one is living in adultery now, they confess it, then continue to live in adultery and that’s okay? If they are truly sorry, then they quit living in adultery. Otherwise asking God for forgiveness is just lip service. They really aren’t sorry because they don’t intend ro stop living in adultery. therefore, God does not forgive someone who is not sorry. They remain in their sin
E:

I don’t know, you see. That’s really a touchy topic for me…
Nearly everyone around me (except maybe my brothers and sisters in the Baptist Church) have sex before marriage…
I mean, even my sister, has had sex with her friend - and of course, they are not married yet. (They are still students and thus have no time and/or money to marry.)
Will she go to hell? Hopefully not, at least she is my sister!!

touchy yes, it is fornication just the same.

Look how far people have dismissed and ignored the behavior. They should be extremely concerned about this sin’s consequence on their soul?

*Eph 5: *5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them,
E:

Well, the thing with the Eucharist…
Most priests here in Austria will also allow divorced men/women to recieve the Eucharist.

Divorce doesn’t exclude one from the Eucharist. Divorce and remarriage does, assuming one hasn’t gotten an annulment of their previous marriage.
E:

Well, the thing with correct. Who has the truth? *We all have only parts of the truth, *
as Paul writes,
"9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. " (1 Cor 13:9-13)

The context of this passage you quote is “spiritual gifts” started in ch 12. Paul is NOT questioning who has the truth.

Esdra,

Re: we all have part of the truth

• That’s not what Paul is saying. Otherwise he would be contradicting himself when he said to Timothy, the pilar and foundation of truth is the Church 1 Tim 3:15]. And we know scripture doesn’t contradict itself. When you see Church, that doesn’t mean organizations that came out of the protestant revolt and further proliferated from that revolt down to today. None of those organizations were started by an apostle, it goes without saying none of them were started by God. God is not the author of confusion.

Re: the Baptist …Reborn-Christian tradition

• the roots of your particular tradition came from John Smyth ~1600 in Amsterdam. Have you ever asked yourself, who gave him the authority to start his own church?

 

[steve_b]

Every sin has the ability to send you to hell, unless she has been confessed (to God).

please quote the passage from scripture. I want to see your references
E:

Yes, I know, I will got to hell because I am not Catholic anymore…

You were Catholic?
E:

Guan has told me that often enough.
But I am not divided from the One Church which is the Church of all believers! (And then with Guan I had a very lengthy discussion about that…)

The Lutheran Church (that arose because of Luther) is not a division.
Only another part of the One Church. Let’s take a parable: The Catholic Church is the foot and the Lutheran the hand.
One body - one Church. Same goes for all other CHRISTIAN (=trinitarian) denominations.

Sorry friend, you’re wrong. They are divided. You’ve bought into a schismatic justification for division. No matter who you name, Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Smyth, etc etc etc, NONE had authority to divide our Lord’s Church or divide from Our Lord’s Church. Scripture condemns division from the Church and those who divide from the Church.
E:

But as John writes, "18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. " (1 John 5:18)

Who is John specifically talking about?
E:

And that’s, btw, the A and O of what Baptists teach. If you are REBORN, then will happen what John has written above…

Who speaks for “baptists”?

 

[steve_b]

Sorry to tell you that, but I have already books of Scott Hahn at home (even in English), but I read a few pages and then just couldn’t stand it and layed the book aside. (And as I really love reading, this means something. Normally NO book is led aside by me.)
And I suppose the same will happen to these books of Staples…

Which book of Scott’s did you lay aside?

The articles I gave of Tim Staples are short. 1 page in length.
E:

And again our communication problem: What Jesus says to the Apostles, is also true for EVERY believer. As the Apostles are the first Christian ever.

With regard to:
Jn 20:21 *As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. *23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

There ARE distinctions between what an ordained apostle can do and who they ordain, vs what a lay person can and can’t do. That’s just obvious…agreed?
E:

I will ask my pastor about that. I am not sure what to say, as we have already said that I can’t forgive your sins you did against for example Bluegoat (just an example, Blue. )

Man, you really challange me, Steve. I know so little in some important questions concerning Baptist theology…

You said in a previous post that you were Catholic. When did you leave the Church and join the Baptists?
E:

Did he? Didn’t he say EVERYTHING in His Word? (and thus religions like LDS or Islam is wrong, God has revealed unto us EVERYTHING in His word. He doesn’t hold back anything and then says, “Oh, I forgot, I’ll need a prophet my humans on earth don’t know this and that.”)
I guess he did already reveal to us everything we need to know to come to Him - in this world and in the world after this one.

We know Mohammed in the 600’s started Islam… We know who started the LDS, it was Joseph Smith in 1830. We know who started every Protestant organization, and when they all got started. John Smyth for example, seperated from Anglicanism who themselves, divided from the Catholic Church, started the Baptists in 1609 in Amsterdam. Luther in 1515 the father of protestantism, divided from the Catholic Church and the proliferation of further protestant denomination went into serial divisions up to our present day.

Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church ~32 a.d. And Benedict XVI is the 266th successor to St Peter.
E:

Trying my best, friend!

good

 

[Esdra]

Does it make sense to you that if one is living in adultery now, they confess it, then continue to live in adultery and that’s okay? If they are truly sorry, then they quit living in adultery. Otherwise asking God for forgiveness is just lip service. They really aren’t sorry because they don’t intend ro stop living in adultery. therefore, God does not forgive someone who is not sorry. They remain in their sin.

I am still waiting for the answer of my pastor what the Baptist Church teaches concerning divorce and remarriage…
But I suppose, 'though I am not sure, she can’t use salvation because she has accepted Jesus into her heart and thus she is saved by faith.
But don’t tear me apart , I am really not sure.

touchy yes, it is fornication just the same.

Look how far people have dismissed and ignored the behavior. They should be extremely concerned about this sin’s consequence on their soul?

*Eph 5: *5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them,

So, my sister and nearly everyone I know, will go to hell?
That’s even worse than to say that everyone who hasn’t accepted Jesus into his/her heart (although he knew about Christ and willingly reject Him) will go to hell… - And I already struggle with that.

Divorce doesn’t exclude one from the Eucharist. Divorce and remarriage does, assuming one hasn’t gotten an annulment of their previous marriage.

Sorry, my mistake, I, of course, meant divorced and remarried people.

The context of this passage you quote is “spiritual gifts” started in ch 12. Paul is NOT questioning who has the truth.

Well, the truth is the Bible (and at Paul’s time where there was no Bible, meaning NT, yet, this was the Sacred Tradition which then became the NT together with the Septuagint as Sacred Scripture.) and Christ, and I am sure for Paul the truth also was exactely that.

Esdra,

Re: we all have part of the truth

• That’s not what Paul is saying. Otherwise he would be contradicting himself when he said to Timothy, the pilar and foundation of truth is the Church 1 Tim 3:15]. And we know scripture doesn’t contradict itself. When you see Church, that doesn’t mean organizations that came out of the protestant revolt and further proliferated from that revolt down to today. None of those organizations were started by an apostle, it goes without saying none of them were started by God. God is not the author of confusion.

Yes, but I mean we as Christians. We all have the Holy Bible, the Trinity (At least the Trinitarian Churches, the other sects/cults I don’t see as Christians!), and the believe in Jesus Christ who has died for us and arose and thus saved us.
And, as my pastor always says, "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth in that sense that every Christian needs the Church, which is the community of all believers; He needs Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus with whom he can progress and help them progress on their journey on the path of Christ.
Because according to Paul, we should become more similar to Christ (i.e. Romans 8:29)

Re: the Baptist …Reborn-Christian tradition

• the roots of your particular tradition came from John Smyth ~1600 in Amsterdam. Have you ever asked yourself, who gave him the authority to start his own church?

I don’t ask myself the question about authority. And I already have told so guanphore (with whom I’ve had quite a similar discussion half a year ago or so, like we have now.)
We are all children of God, all euqual. All brothers and sisters in Christ, there aren’t people who are higher or so than other…

 

[Esdra]

please quote the passage from scripture. I want to see your references

For me, the verses you quoted to prove that there are mortal and venial sins, are only examples of sins.
So, no, I think I can’t remember of a verse where it exactely says that all sins are equal evil and will send you all to hell (unrepented and unforgiven[by God], of course.)

You were Catholic?

Yes, but, please, I don’t want to derail the thread here any further by telling you why I left.
If you want you can search my older posts here on CAF. (Probably not that much the oldest ones, as I was really quite Anti-Catholic at that time…)
It suffices me to say that I was really very, very poor catechised.
I’ve always seen in the Catechism something evil, as my mom always said ('though not that directly) that it’s “evil”. - She, by the way, had to learn it by heart and she hated it and never wanted me to read it or even learn it…

Sorry friend, you’re wrong. They are divided. You’ve bought into a schismatic justification for division. No matter who you name, Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Smyth, etc etc etc, NONE had authority to divide our Lord’s Church or divide from Our Lord’s Church. Scripture condemns division from the Church and those who divide from the Church.

As I said before, the question of authority isn’t a question for me…

Who is John specifically talking about?

Please, not talking in circles… I have answered you this question before somewhere in this thread. And we disagree…

Who speaks for “baptists”?

Don’t really get what you mean.
Do you suggest I am “talking for Baptists”?
Well, as I have written you somewhere before, I am just trying to state the doctrine of, what I would consider as Baptist doctrine, as good as I can…
And, as you may have realised, I don’t know everything…

 

[Esdra]

Which book of Scott’s did you lay aside?

It is “Reasons to Believe”.

The articles I gave of Tim Staples are short. 1 page in length.

Well, maybe I’ll have a look at it…

With regard to:
Jn 20:21 As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

There ARE distinctions between what an ordained apostle can do and who they ordain, vs what a lay person can and can’t do. That’s just obvious…agreed?

Well, priesthood of all believers teaches something different here.
All people are equal and the Holy Spirit gives his gifts to everyone what he wants and how much he wants (1 Cor 12:7-11). And so also pastors are normal people like every other as well, only that they have the gift to lead a parish and/or to preach.

You said in a previous post that you were Catholic. When did you leave the Church and join the Baptists?

I have “left” (meaning: So far, I’ve de facto left nothing. In Austria you have to register what Religion you are, and I am on the paper still Catholic!), when I was 16 years old, then I’ve studied the Bible privately until 2009, summer, then I’ve gotten to know someone of the “Charismatic Baptist Church” (Terms for Reborn Churches are different here than in the US), found out that what I’ve found out in my private Bible studies nearly fits a 100% to the Baptist’s view, unthrusted my life to Jesus and since then I’ve been an unoffical member of that Church (as baptism is missing, as well as resigning from the CC and entering this Baptist Church.)

We know Mohammed in the 600’s started Islam… We know who started the LDS, it was Joseph Smith in 1830. We know who started every Protestant organization, and when they all got started. John Smyth for example, seperated from Anglicanism who themselves, divided from the Catholic Church, started the Baptists in 1609 in Amsterdam. Luther in 1515 the father of protestantism, divided from the Catholic Church and the proliferation of further protestant denomination went into serial divisions up to our present day.

Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church ~32 a.d. And Benedict XVI is the 266th successor to St Peter.

And this is also one thing I’ve written so often here on CAF, “Christ hasn’t started anything. He has always been a faithful Jew 'til his death!”
The Apostles (after Pentecost maybe, or later) started the catholic Church.

Nevertheless, we are all Christians, believe all in Christ Jesus and are all part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. - No matter which denomination you talk about. (Absolute must-have is, of course, the believe in the Trinity. Otherwise, at least for me, a sect is not Christian but something else. I am referring to JWs or LDS etc. in this case.)

good

Yes, it’s really hard with you at times.
But I really enjoy debating with you nevertheless!

in Christ,

 

[Bluegoat]

right

:console:

However it could be interpreted by your agreement with Bluegoat, forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8326750&postcount=83 that you also agree with his disinformation…right?

When he said

“The do not understand what Scripture says about mortal sins in the same way you are interpreting it - you are looking at it in a typical Latin fashion”

He’s wrong. I quoted an Eastern Catholic Catechism that not only says they DO understand mortal and venial, but quote the same scripture passages I quoted. btw, the Ukranian Catholics are the largest of the Eastern Catholic rites.

Bluegoat is trying to start an argument where there isn’t one.

Not at all. And given your participation on the Eastern Catholic thread, I think you are being disingenuous. The example you gave is a Latinization, an import from Latin practice - it isn’t the Eastern theological model at all, and several Eastern Catholics have said so. It stems from a time in the Eastern Catholic church which was not very good. It is pretty easy to do some reading on any of the other apostolic churches and see that they do not understand the difference between mortal and venial sin the way you do, and their practice is quite different.