Do Protestants have "Faith"?

[heisenburg]

Mozart…

You hit the nail on the head… Your understanding (as well as mine) is the official Catholic position…

If you are baptized in the triune formate… you are Catholic… This is not per me… per you, per Jimmy akin, or anyone else… this is per the CCC and the Catholic Church…

And yes… this is a horrible example of Cafeterism…

Those that don’t like the rules of the church and can’t accept them make their own…

In Christ

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FaithofAbraham,

Perhaps we should clear up the “Faith” issue before launching into the salvation issue. I know they’re related, but I think the Faith issue might need to be resolved first.

Isn’t that what you are saying though, for Catholics true faith and thus salvation is only found in the Church; for all others, a kind of deluded belief you really have faith, but in reality only leads to damnation?

 

[roguejim]

“Somtimes people say ‘It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.’ That is not true. That would mean at bottom one could be saved without the true Faith. No, a bad Catholic remains a child of the family - although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has the right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant is, for he is a member of the household, whereas the Protestant is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!”
ST. PETER JULIAN EYMARD

“This would be the right place for a study of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church. Do not all the baptized belong to the Church? And is not the Church one only? Yes, the Council answers, but, membership in the Church requires other conditions besides baptism, such as identical faith and unity of communion. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. Outside this body, the Holy Spirit does not give life to anyone. Those who are hostile to unity do not participate in divine charity. Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. And those who wish to possess the Holy Spirit take good care not to remain outside the Church. A Christian must fear nothing so much as to be separated from the Body of Christ. If, in fact, he is separated from the Body of Christ,
he is not one of His members: and, not being one of His members, he is not fed by His Spirit.”
POPE PAUL VI

“That we can have at least good hope for the salvation of all those who have never been in the true Church of Christ is hereby condemned as error.”
VEN. POPE PIUS IX

It was to the Apostolic College alone, of which Peter is the head, that Our Lord entrusted the one Body of Christ into which all those who belong in any way must be fully incorporated."
II VATICAN COUNCIL

“The Church is visible because she is a Body, therefore, they are straying from divine truth who imagine the Church to be something merely “Spiritual” as they say, a Church in which many Christian communities, although separated by faith, could be joined by some kind of bond invisible to the sense.”
POPE PIUS XII

“All true Christians are members of the Church.”
ST JOHN EUDES

“A manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others.”
ST ROBERT BELLARMINE

“The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. It is error to believe that men can find the path of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion whatsoever. It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permitted to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

The above quotes, of which there many more, are simply to provide some sense of clarity amid the post-conciliar confusion.

 

[heisenburg]

roguejim,

With humble respect, I think you are missing a huge thing here…

None of your statements indicate that the church does not view Protestants as Christians of the Christian faith… You seem to be taking criticism of Protestantism as proof they are not ‘Christian’…

But you absolutely have to remember that if they are baptized in the Triune formate…

As far as the CATHOLIC CHURCH is concerned…

THEY ARE CATHOLIC

Please be careful not to let your zeal blind you to what the church is saying. As far as the church is concerned, you are approaching dangerous waters…

If you genuinely do not believe that Protestants have ‘faith’ then I propose we do what the bible says…

You and I take our disagreement to the Church…

Ask an Apologist is a great place to go for this… These are often run by chaplains…

IF they come back and say your understanding is mistaken, then you must submit to the church if you claim to be a faithful Catholic…

If you do not, then by your own definition, you do not have faith since you do not trust the church you seem to want to defend…

Please…

I reiterate…

As a catholic, take your concern to the Church…

Here is a link to Ask the Apologist

In Christ

 

[Triumpha]

Faith is the supernatural gift from God that enables one to believe all that God has revealed.

Protestants don’t believe* all* that God has revealed. It’s possible that some/many are able to, if they knew what else He has revealed, then upon hearing about the Catholic Church, they would join it.

Faith can move mountains. It can also move Protestants into the Catholic Church, whereupon they are no longer Protestants.

 

[roguejim]

Heisenburg,
I never thought I’d see the day that a Catholic(?) would say that Protestants are Catholic. Just astounding. Pope Paul VI would seem to disagree. It might be worth reiterating that Protestantism is still heresy. If Protestants are Catholic, can you then tell me what the value of Truth is? If I can enter Heaven believing the Assumption, and a non-Catholic can enter Heaven vehemently denying the Assumption, then Truth has no bearing in the economy of salvation, does it? I might suggest you read the Athanasian Creed where it says we are to, above all else, hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate in order to be saved. I think you need to take your belief that “Protestants are Catholics” to the Church. I have brought the traditional mind of the Church to you.

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, in testifying that those who are not with Him are His adversaries, does not designate any particular form of heresy,
but declares that all heretics who do not gather with Him scatter His flock and are His enemies.”
POPE LEO XIII

“Whosoever has cut himself off from the Church of Rome has become an alien to Christianity.”
POPE ST. BONIFACE I

“Hence, the separated heresies have been torn off like dead branches. Some are at a very great distance from Christ, others are disinherited for some slight matter and have made themselves and their children aliens from Him: they are outside the boundaries
but have set themselves up outside. They have nothing left of Christ but the name.”
ST EPIPHANIUS

“The Catholic Church alone, then, Christ calls His Spouse. The Church, therefore, is one; this cannot be said amongst any of those who are heretics or schismatics. The churches of every one of the heretics is prostituted; they are churches which Christ repudiates as unnecessary, since He is the Spouse of the One Church.”
ST OPTATUS OF MILEVUS

“Because there is no Holy Spirit outside the Church, it is impossible for there to be any sound faith not only among heretics but even among those who are established in schism.”
ST CYPRIAN

 

[mozart-250]

So how am I as a poor, heretical Protestant supposed to know which one of you is telling me the truth according to Catholicism and which one of you is not? I mean on the face of it, you both sound convincing.

If the Catholic church really believes I am going to hell because I am not Catholic, I would kinda sort of like to know it before I bake in the lake for all eternity.

I like Heisenburg’s idea of asking an apologist. I would think I could trust somebody who is trained in Catholicism over an anonymous poster on the internet. In fact think he nails it…if I have to be Catholic in order to have eternal life, then I would think that y’all should be able to trust a trained Catholic to arbitrate between you.

 

[HannahLisa]

Ouch. Now you’re saying that Protestants have to believe exactly what the Catholic Church says Catholics have to believe and do in order to have faith in order for Protestants to be considered to have faith? Isn’t that a bit illogical?

Some Protestants would most definitely fall under the category of NOT KNOWING that the Church is the “true Church” and would, according to that, be innocent of any wrongdoing. I can’t find exactly where it says that in the Catechism but I know it’s there. If you are honestly ignorant, the Catholic Church does not guarantee that you will burn in hell! Most Protestants haven’t cut themselves off from the Church – they don’t necessarily know anything about the Church. They are not heretics because they did not reject the Church!

There is no way anyone can say that the faithful Protestant martyrs did not have faith. There is no way anyone can say that some faithful Protestant Christians alive today do not have faith. You cannot expect them to go by Catholic standards when they are not Catholic. There are many Protestants who fulfill everything except the part about believing what the Church teaches – because they are not Catholic and cannot be expected to believe it. Only God can say whether an individual Protestant is in trouble for that or not, because He is the only one who truly knows all the circumstances in all these cases!

 

[roguejim]

mozart-250,

If I were you, I would simply look to early history for the answer as to whether or not Our Lord established a church. In the 1ST century, Ignatius of Antioch, who was the man taught by St. Peter, and also replaced him as bishop of the church of Rome, indentified the church as “catholic”. There are many books on the early Church Fathers which will solve many problems and answer many questions concerning what the early Christians believed. And one must remember that these 1ST century Christians were, in fact, taught by the Apostles themselves.

The dogma “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” which means “no salvation outside the Church” is a dogma of the Faith, and as such, must be assented to by all Catholics. This is a very positive pronouncement as it shows mankind where to find salvation. One merely has to enter the Ark. So, my plea to you is, “Enter the Ark now where you may receive the means of salvation, which are the sacraments.” The many quotes which I posted serve two ends: to provide “clear” teaching, and to instill a sense of urgency in anyone who is considering coming home to Our Lord’s House, which is of course, The Holy, Roman, Catholic Church. Too often today Catholics are afraid of offending others by giving them the straight Truth, which is in the end, Jesus Christ. We spend much time joining hands in common causes, and never say what really needs to be said. I hope you can see past the perceived “harshness” and recognize the truths of the quotes. Time really is of the essence as no one knows the day nor hour when he or she will receive their particular judgment. I may be chastised for being too direct, but I won’t be for lack of zeal. And do remember, sloth is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. God bless.

I want to leave two dogmatic pronouncements dealing with the salvation issue:

papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

We believe that all who are saved are saved because Jesus Christ, God the Son, became man, died and rose from the dead.

We believe that God the Father wants us all to accept Jesus and the church he established.

We don’t think just being a Catholic means you will go to heaven.
We don’t think just being non-Catholic means you will go to hell.

We cannot say who is going to hell.

​

 

[mozart-250]

Roguejim:

But you are obviously in disagreement with other Catholics here?
I am sure that the other Catholics here can cite other Catholic sources to support their side also.

So how do I as a non-Catholic know which one of you is correct and which one of you is quoting out of context?

If your pope was on this forum and weighed in on the issue, would that settle it? But since he probably is not here, would a priest do?

 

[Namesake]

Why not. If you don’t believe your Church is the only way to go and everyone else is headed for Hell on false faith, why bother devoting yourself to it.

Because there is more than one path to salvation. The road is narrow, but it is not single file. Even the RCC clearly states that.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t think so either and while my response is a bit harsh (especially since I see that the OP is new to the boards) I really get tired of the hypocrasy that protestants can’t make sweeping generalizations but catholics can…

Ask the question in the spirit of seeking Truth, not tearing another group down…

IMO & AFAICS & AFAIK, what you said was completely right ​

The idea that the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation - which is what is implied in the judgement that those outside cannot be saved - is not the teaching of Church, & it is a great over-simplification. The authentic teaching of the Church on this an other matters is stated & expounded in great detail in Lumen Gentium, which is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. What was said in the past is less adequate than the teaching of the Dogmatic Constitution, & cannot be treated as though the Dogmatic Constitution had not been given to the Church & the world. In that sense, past teaching documents are inadequate, for they are not as full. The CCC does little more than quote Lumen Gentium - but to see how everything fits together, the Constitution has to be read

If the Church were absolutely necessary for salvation, it would follow that no grace was given outside it: a position which has been condemned - in 1713, in the Bull “Unigenitus Dei Filius”. Jesus several times rejects or ignores the attitude of exclusiveness: so Christians have no business restoring it. The only people in the
gospels who express it are - the Pharisees. If He were on earth today, that kind of exclusiveness would mean rejecting Him; for He was a Jew, & not a Christian.

The problem is that Catholicism tends to see the content of Christianity as guaranteed by its form - Protestantism, OTOH, tends to judge the form by its faithfulness to the content. They are different emphases, but they appear to be something more as well: so whether they can be reconciled - in a higher synthesis, perhaps ? - is not clear.

 

[Emerald]

Hi roguejim.

You know, after having been conversing with the traditionalists for quite some time and become quite familiar with particular mistakes which some of them make, I almost forgot how bad it was on the flipside of that same coin, namely, mistakes made with a touch of the liberal, like some of the responses your question has earned you.

It is most definitely Catholic dogma that the Catholic Church is the exclusive means of salvation. It has been pronounced Ex Cathedra. No one can claim otherwise. Now there are some people who take issue with this because they equate such a statement with bigotry. That’s a mistake on their part, and the claim is not a just claim, and the Church’s claim that outside it there is no salvation, remains the Catholic truth.

To illustrate this truth more clearly, let’s put the matter into another context, or not a context, actually, but as how Christ and the Church see it, as the reality of marriage. It flows like this: no one here will claim that it ok for a man to have other wives than his own. No one, likewise, will claim that to say a man cannot have other wives is bigotry. Now the bride of Christ is the Church. If we claim that the Catholic Church is not the only spouse of Christ, the we have to call God unfaithful, which is blasphemy. So if we believe one man must have one woman, then we must believe that Christ must have one Bride, the Church.

 

[Emerald]

IMO & AFAICS & AFAIK, what you said was completely right ​

The idea that the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation - which is what is implied in the judgement that those outside cannot be saved - is not the teaching of Church…

Then it is not absolutely necessary for a man to be faithful to his wife. But of course, we all know that such an idea is absolutely silly, and we all know, or at least we all should know, that sacramental marriage is in fact a shadow of the divine marriage between Christ and His Church, and that it is in fact called “the Divine Analogy”.

When the Church defines dogma, such as the Immaculate Conception, Catholics have to accept it. The dogma in question here, the dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation, is one such dogma.

 

[t68ware]

Heisenburg,
I never thought I’d see the day that a Catholic(?) would say that Protestants are Catholic. Just astounding. Pope Paul VI would seem to disagree. It might be worth reiterating that Protestantism is still heresy. If Protestants are Catholic, can you then tell me what the value of Truth is? If I can enter Heaven believing the Assumption, and a non-Catholic can enter Heaven vehemently denying the Assumption, then Truth has no bearing in the economy of salvation, does it? I might suggest you read the Athanasian Creed where it says we are to, above all else, hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate in order to be saved. I think you need to take your belief that “Protestants are Catholics” to the Church. I have brought the traditional mind of the Church to you.

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, in testifying that those who are not with Him are His adversaries, does not designate any particular form of heresy,
but declares that all heretics who do not gather with Him scatter His flock and are His enemies.”
POPE LEO XIII

“Whosoever has cut himself off from the Church of Rome has become an alien to Christianity.”
POPE ST. BONIFACE I

“Hence, the separated heresies have been torn off like dead branches. Some are at a very great distance from Christ, others are disinherited for some slight matter and have made themselves and their children aliens from Him: they are outside the boundaries
but have set themselves up outside. They have nothing left of Christ but the name.”
ST EPIPHANIUS

“The Catholic Church alone, then, Christ calls His Spouse. The Church, therefore, is one; this cannot be said amongst any of those who are heretics or schismatics. The churches of every one of the heretics is prostituted; they are churches which Christ repudiates as unnecessary, since He is the Spouse of the One Church.”
ST OPTATUS OF MILEVUS

“Because there is no Holy Spirit outside the Church, it is impossible for there to be any sound faith not only among heretics but even among those who are established in schism.”
ST CYPRIAN

Protestants have no faith, hmmm. It never fails that on this fantastic forum where I have met some fantastic Catholics I find one that is set on bashing us Protestants. Have we forgotten what Hebrews 11:1 says? Perhaps you need to read that again. My RCIA class regards me as a Christian because I have been baptised in the Name of the Triune God, and believe in Jesus as the Son of God. How can I believe in Jesus without faith? The bishop who said we Protestants have no faith is wrong, sorry to say. That means Billy Graham has no faith, John Wesley had no faith, etc. Are you willing to believe that also? How about a person like Michael W Smith, a Christian music artist who has help lead thousands to find Christ with his music? Does he have no faith? And if you do not know who Michael W Smith is, go to his website. I am sad there are people who believe your point of view.

 

[Emerald]

My RCIA class regards me as a Christian because I have been baptised in the Name of the Triune God, and believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

This is just my take on it, but far from being insulted, consider what a grand thing it is that Christ wants to make you His faithful beloved. Can’t ask for better than his in this life, or in the next.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Well now…where to begin.

Singinbeauty,

Your emotion laden gibberish is difficult to decipher, and therefore, hard if not impossible to respond to in any rational sense. I, literally, don’t know what to say.

Wow, it seems that others would disagree with you since they got what I was saying and agreed. SHOCK Some are even catholic!!! :bigyikes:

I think that you should hang back on responding and starting threads on the Non-Catholic forum because you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to protestants or even what your own catechism says about us. Come back in the spirit of seeking Truth and then we can talk…

 

[Dropper]

roguejim,

I might take it a step further. Just for the record, before I go any further, I would just like to state that I am a convert from Seventh-Day Adventism.

We as Catholics believe that the Church (the Catholic Church) is the one, true Church that Christ himself founded. I believe that since the Father of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ Himself, the father of the protestant sects has to be the devil.

So who do protestants worship? What faith do they have? I am not sure. At one point, I would have said that, while they think they worship the one, true God, they worship a god that the devil himself has created, a false idol that satan himself used people like Martin Luther to create.

Is this correct? I don’t know for sure, but I have to lean toward yes. This is the only answer that is logical.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Because there is more than one path to salvation. The road is narrow, but it is not single file. Even the RCC clearly states that.

If the RCC states that then they are saying there is not one true Church of believers, but many Churches of many different beliefs. Where does RCC say that.