Do Protestants have "Faith"?

[THutch04]

Wow, it’s threads like this that make people want to leave the Church…myself included.

I should really learn to not click on links that will make me angry…

 

[Doxiemom]

Saying such things do not make it true.

and. to suggest that Holy Scripture is in any way possible not to be absolute truth and could be declared as such and that (my) catholic church , with its writings could be a better substitute

is

almost

an abomination to say such a horrific thing

God is God the Creator
and
man is nothing more than His creation

not even worthy but even the rightous are as filthy rags

Do you not get this?

 

[c659smith]

so let me try to follow this “no salvation outside the Church” thinking. All Catholics and Protestants believe salvation is found in Christ alone…that we agree upon. But the Catholic Church says for those outside it, there is no salvation. So from this logic, if one were to believe in Christ and believe in Him with all their heart, soul and mind, and they were not Catholic, either they are not truely saved or there is salvation outside the Church. The Bible makes the simple statement “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” The argument that Peter was speaking as head of the Church is up for debate, and always will be as long as their are non-Catholics, but to say that knowledge of Christ is found and dispensed only through the Church is faulty. Again, what about the thousands who have come to Christ via a Billy Graham crusade? Or those who attend Christian concerts and believe in Christ from the preaching? The Church is a vehicle of God’s grace and not the sole dispenser of faith and the salvific message.

Hopefully some of those Christians from Billy Graham will become Catholic.

Again the Catholic Church does not say who will be saved and not saved but states there is not salvation without the church, the Catholic Church

Let me put it in another way.

The Catholic Church through the Holy Spirit was responsible for the bible contents and what is in the bible today

If the Catholic Church said the bible was a lie and they should know because they approved it’s content, the same bible you use, where will you denomination be?

The Catholic Church holds most of the miracles, Saints, Rome, etc… and if they destroyed them all in a couple of generations how many Christians would there be?

If the Catholic Church denied as lies all Traditions and Teachings --you would not have any.

Where would Christianity be?

If the Catholic church ceased to exist the other Christian faiths would surely follow.

The Catholic Church has been around for over two millinium and will continue on for that is what Christ Promised in scripture.

I do not want to tick anyone off but it is clear to see deny Peter, deny the early church fathers, deny the first 1500 years of catholism and you lose Christianity.

But without us you cease to exist for we are the Church of Christ.
So there is no salvation without the church. However have faith

But, of course, it isn’t just an association. The Church is a supernatural association, which is meant to get us to heaven. It isn’t merely something which unites Catholics together, it is the thing which unites Catholics to Jesus Christ. And that, I think you can say, is the main difference between the Protestant and the Catholic idea of salvation. The Protestant hopes to be saved just by faith in Jesus Christ; the Catholic hopes to be saved by living and dying as a member of the Church which Jesus Christ founded. . . .

founded what we call .his Church. When he said to St. Peter, "You are my rock, and

I am going to build my church on this rock," he was setting out to do the same thing which God had done when he called his people out of Egypt. Moses had started a church, the church of Israel; now our Lord was going to start a Church of his own—that is what he meant by “my Church.” He, too, was going to have a picked lot of people to serve him and to represent him, and that picked lot was the Catholic Church

. “In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis” [Acts 9:32-34] (Ibid. 17:27).

 

[Bible_Believer]

I believe the Catholic Catechism answers in the affirmative, however, I know of at least one Catholic bishop who says “No. They have simple human belief.” I think the bishop’s response is a fair and accurate answer since the definition of Faith given in the CCC necessarily excludes all non-Catholics by virtue of their open rejection of Church teaching, not to mention open rejection of the Vicar of Christ which is tantamount to rejection of Jesus Christ (He who hears you, hears Me. He who rejects you, rejects Me.). The fact that Faith is Truth, and a gift from God necessitates one accepting Catholic truth. Since all non-Catholics (including Protestants) are in open rejection of Truth, they cannot have Faith. I’m open to correction.

reading all of your uh…stuff…to put it nicely…no I dont think you are open to correction…and you are going to sit there and say that I am in rejection of the truth…omg…all I can say is that you had better get your Bible out and read what it teaches about faith and salvation and such…and opps…I dont see the Catholic church mentioned in there…
sorry…I usually dont like to be so harsh…but you just kind of brought it out of me!

 

[roguejim]

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)

www.olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

A most excellent defense of the Faith, St. Rafael. But as one can see, it doesn’t really matter how much logic, or how many authoritative quotations one produces. The holy words of saints, popes, martyrs, and councils matter little to the tepid, lukewarm, ignorant neo-Catholic that one finds here. He/she is awash in the glow of his golden calf, “ecumenism”, which makes a vagrant of the Truth, who is Jesus Christ. Of course, it is a false ecumenism, that “ignores the things that separate us and celebrates what we have in common”, instead of focusing on conversion to the One, True Church which is always at the heart of true ecumenism. This “true ecumenism” knows that these things “which separate us” are often the very truths which are necessary unto salvation, and must be the focal point of any ecumenical discussion. For the last 40+ years, this type of churchman has given scandal to the Church Militant, and dare I say, the Church Triumphant?

As for the non-Catholics here, why should they convert? It doesn’t appear they’re given any real reason to, at least not by anyone here. But, since “I” must go to my particular judgment one day, I exhort you one last time to “Come in to the Ark before you perish.”

 

[c659smith]

reading all of your uh…stuff…to put it nicely…no I dont think you are open to correction…and you are going to sit there and say that I am in rejection of the truth…omg…all I can say is that you had better get your Bible out and read what it teaches about faith and salvation and such…and opps…I dont see the Catholic church mentioned in there…
sorry…I usually dont like to be so harsh…but you just kind of brought it out of me!

Ok here is what I have.
The Greek roots of the term “Catholic” mean “according to (kata-) the whole (holos),” or more colloquially, “universal.” At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term “Catholic” in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.

The term “Catholic” is in the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, and many Protestants, claiming the term for themselves, give it a meaning that is unsupported historically, ignoring the term’s use at the time the creeds were written.

“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

That is the year 110 !!!

“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

that is the year 155 !!!

Sorry fella the Church did not start in the year 1500*

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hopefully some of those Christians from Billy Graham will become Catholic.

Again the Catholic Church does not say who will be saved and not saved but states there is not salvation without the church, the Catholic Church

Let me put it in another way.

The Catholic Church through the Holy Spirit was responsible for the bible contents and what is in the bible today

If the Catholic Church said the bible was a lie and they should know because they approved it’s content, the same bible you use, where will you denomination be?

If it did say that, the worse for the CC. The Bible would be not changed by that - it would be the same Word of God as it was before. The Church is not the Lord & Master of the Bible, but is a witness to it. It is no more entitled to say the Bible is a lie than a witness in a trial is entitled to give false witness. The Church is a witness to God & the Bible - it is not the Bible’s creator. It has no power over the Bible, but a commission to be faithful to the Message of Christ, which is a very different thing. And the NT is the inspired precipitate of that Message.​

The Catholic Church holds most of the miracles, Saints, Rome, etc… and if they destroyed them all in a couple of generations how many Christians would there be?

If the CC were obliterated & utterly forgotten as though it had never been, God would raise up servants to Himself from the stones & the dust, if there were need. He is Our Sovereign Lord, & He needs nothing - it is we His creatures who need Him. The CC cannot afford to be proprietorial, as though it were somehow superior to all other Churches - it is less than all of them, especially when it boasts of its greatness: for what good has it, that God has not given it ? But if all those goods are a gift, what has it to boast of ? The free grace by which the poverty of Christians is made wealth is given for the Glory of God & the doing of His Will - not so that the pride of Christians may be increased. All those graces are equipment for the Church, that it may do His Will - they are not weapons for Christians to wound Christians.​

If the Catholic Church denied as lies all Traditions and Teachings --you would not have any.

God would provide. Not all holiness & grace is in the CC - in fact, the mission of the Church is far more important than the Church. If the CC denied its teaching, it would be denying Christ & committing apostasy. If it wanted to damn itself, why should it drag other Christians down to Hell ? Where would Christianity be?​

If the Catholic church ceased to exist the other Christian faiths would surely follow.## There were plenty of Christians in India & China & what is now Iraq, even when there were no Catholics - the Assyrian, Armenian, & Coptic Churches were left to themselves for centuries: it didn’t stop them being blessed by God.

The Catholic Church has been around for over two millinium and will continue on for that is what Christ Promised in scripture.

I do not want to tick anyone off but it is clear to see deny Peter, deny the early church fathers, deny the first 1500 years of catholism and you lose Christianity.

But without us you cease to exist for we are the Church of Christ.
So there is no salvation without the church. However have faith

The Church would be - is - nothing, but for Christ. It is better to deny Peter than to imitate his denial of his Master - as he said, after Christ had converted him, “We must obey God rather than man” (Acts 5.29). Popes, Fathers, Councils, Tradition - they are nothing, without Christ.​

But, of course, it isn’t just an association. The Church is a supernatural association, which is meant to get us to heaven. It isn’t merely something which unites Catholics together, it is the thing which unites Catholics to Jesus Christ. And that, I think you can say, is the main difference between the Protestant and the Catholic idea of salvation. The Protestant hopes to be saved just by faith in Jesus Christ; the Catholic hopes to be saved by living and dying as a member of the Church which Jesus Christ founded. . . .

founded what we call .his Church. When he said to St. Peter, "You are my rock, and

I am going to build my church on this rock," he was setting out to do the same thing which God had done when he called his people out of Egypt. Moses had started a church, the church of Israel; now our Lord was going to start a Church of his own—that is what he meant by “my Church.” He, too, was going to have a picked lot of people to serve him and to represent him, and that picked lot was the Catholic Church. “In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis” [Acts 9:32-34] (Ibid. 17:27).

 

[c659smith]

If it did say that, the worse for the CC. The Bible would be not changed by that - it would be the same Word of God as it was before. The Church is not the Lord & Master of the Bible, but is a witness to it. It is no more entitled to say the Bible is a lie than a witness in a trial is entitled to give false witness. The Church is a witness to God & the Bible - it is not the Bible’s creator. It has no power over the Bible, but a commission to be faithful to the Message of Christ, which is a very different thing. And the NT is the inspired precipitate of that Message. ## If the CC were obliterated & utterly forgotten as though it had never been, God would raise up servants to Himself from the stones & the dust, if there were need. He is Our Sovereign Lord, & He needs nothing - it is we His creatures who need Him. The CC cannot afford to be proprietorial, as though it were somehow superior to all other Churches - it is less than all of them, especially when it boasts of its greatness: for what good has it, that God has not given it ? But if all those goods are a gift, what has it to boast of ? The free grace by which the poverty of Christians is made wealth is given for the Glory of God & the doing of His Will - not so that the pride of Christians may be increased. All those graces are equipment for the Church, that it may do His Will - they are not weapons for Christians to wound Christians.## God would provide. Not all holiness & grace is in the CC - in fact, the mission of the Church is far more important than the Church. If the CC denied its teaching, it would be denying Christ & committing apostasy. If it wanted to damn itself, why should it drag other Christians down to Hell ?​

Where would Christianity be?

If the Catholic church ceased to exist the other Christian faiths would surely follow.## There were plenty of Christians in India & China & what is now Iraq, even when there were no Catholics - the Assyrian, Armenian, & Coptic Churches were left to themselves for centuries: it didn’t stop them being blessed by God. ## The Church would be - is - nothing, but for Christ. It is better to deny Peter than to imitate his denial of his Master - as he said, after Christ had converted him, “We must obey God rather than man” (Acts 5.29). Popes, Fathers, Councils, Tradition - they are nothing, without Christ.

You quite mis-understand my post–It would be impossible for the Catholic Church to do any of that.

The point is there is no salvation without the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is Christ and Christ is the Church.

The message was for the non Catholics out there for without the Catholic Church they have nothing–

There would have been nothing to protest aganist ( Protestant)

There would be no Christianity as Christ once again is the Church and the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.

What is diffulcult here to figure out?

The Protestant Churches are falling apart today and splitting
(33,000 + denominations) quicker than an amobea –

Do you know there are more Church going Catholics in England now than Protestants that attend church.

Keep an eye on alot of Europe today it tells a big story.

They certainly would not hold together for there whole being is the big protest.

Without the Church to pick on they would tear eachother apart.

 

[c659smith]

If it did say that, the worse for the CC. The Bible would be not changed by that - it would be the same Word of God as it was before. The Church is not the Lord & Master of the Bible, but is a witness to it. It is no more entitled to say the Bible is a lie than a witness in a trial is entitled to give false witness. The Church is a witness to God & the Bible - it is not the Bible’s creator. It has no power over the Bible, but a commission to be faithful to the Message of Christ, which is a very different thing. And the NT is the inspired precipitate of that Message. ## If the CC were obliterated & utterly forgotten as though it had never been, God would raise up servants to Himself from the stones & the dust, if there were need. He is Our Sovereign Lord, & He needs nothing - it is we His creatures who need Him. The CC cannot afford to be proprietorial, as though it were somehow superior to all other Churches - it is less than all of them, especially when it boasts of its greatness: for what good has it, that God has not given it ? But if all those goods are a gift, what has it to boast of ? The free grace by which the poverty of Christians is made wealth is given for the Glory of God & the doing of His Will - not so that the pride of Christians may be increased. All those graces are equipment for the Church, that it may do His Will - they are not weapons for Christians to wound Christians.## God would provide. Not all holiness & grace is in the CC - in fact, the mission of the Church is far more important than the Church. If the CC denied its teaching, it would be denying Christ & committing apostasy. If it wanted to damn itself, why should it drag other Christians down to Hell ?​

Where would Christianity be?

If the Catholic church ceased to exist the other Christian faiths would surely follow.## There were plenty of Christians in India & China & what is now Iraq, even when there were no Catholics - the Assyrian, Armenian, & Coptic Churches were left to themselves for centuries: it didn’t stop them being blessed by God. ## The Church would be - is - nothing, but for Christ. It is better to deny Peter than to imitate his denial of his Master - as he said, after Christ had converted him, “We must obey God rather than man” (Acts 5.29). Popes, Fathers, Councils, Tradition - they are nothing, without Christ.

The word in the Bible is Church not churches

 

[Huguenot]

**That’s a different topic **​

---

"[C]an’t the same thing apply to us ?" - the comparison fails for this reason: a Catholic is in full communion with the Pope or Council or episcopate that defines previously-undefined dogma X.

---

**Christians on the other side of the Reformation divide are in communion with the CC in many important respects: the communion is a real one, not a phantom: those on either side are very definitely “brothers in Christ” (even though the fraternal relationship is sometimes of the Cain & Abel variety ) - but, the union is not complete in doctrine & faith, nor in discipline, nor in assumptions about authority. **

---

**In short: Catholics in 1949 were in the same Church under the same conditions as the Popes in 1950 or 1965 or 2008. Which is not quite the case with Christians on the other side of the Reformation. **

---

Hope that helps

what helped me most is the fact that you said we’re brothers in Christ …

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Where would Christianity be?

If the Catholic church ceased to exist the other Christian faiths would surely follow.

There were plenty of Christians in India & China & what is now Iraq, even when there were no Catholics - the Assyrian, Armenian, & Coptic Churches were left to themselves for centuries: it didn’t stop them being blessed by God. ## The Church would be - is - nothing, but for Christ. It is better to deny Peter than to imitate his denial of his Master - as he said, after Christ had converted him, “We must obey God rather than man” (Acts 5.29). Popes, Fathers, Councils, Tradition - they are nothing, without Christ.​

The word in the Bible is Church not churches## That is part of the Biblical teaching on the Church - for St. John wrote to the seven churches - the parts matter as much the whole, & the Church can quite easily be thought of composed of the Churches. In this sense, all Protestant Churches are parts of the one Universal Church, & and are united not by man, but are one in Christ through the Spirit; the churches we see on our streets being local expressions of the many Churches within the one Church.

 

[mozart-250]

Curious RogueJim, what do you think of Second Vatican Council and all the popes since that time.

It really seems to me that what you are saying is in contradiction to that council.

 

[mozart-250]

Wow, it’s threads like this that make people want to leave the Church…myself included.

I should really learn to not click on links that will make me angry…

Oh don’t leave your church and get angry . This is quite fascinating actually.

 

[BillTBC]

[sign]…[/sign]

 

[wisdomseeker]

I do believe they have faith. i believe they love the Our Lord.

my question is: are they in obedience to Our Lord? i would say no.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Catholics please!. Peace of Our Lord be upon us all.
before anybody else we are the true brothers and sisters. for Jesus said: “Love one another for if you do this the world will know you are mine.”
above all lets be kind and patient to one another. if you are frustrated take time and think before posting. use the Wisdom of God not our own.

:bowdown:

 

[O.S.Luke]

Somebody… anybody… put this thread out of it’s misery…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

c659smith:

You quite mis-understand my post–It would be impossible for the Catholic Church to do any of that.

So long as God preserves it from doing so. Without Him to restrain us, there is no evil we are not capable of committing - “us” being Christians of all kinds​

The point is there is no salvation without the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is Christ and Christ is the Church.

That’s an over-simplification - if it were so, the Church should be sinless. Many of its acts show it is not. It is holy - but it is not sinless. The holiness of the Church is the Holiness of Christ - & being we are sinners, that Holiness is obscured.​

The message was for the non Catholics out there for without the Catholic Church they have nothing–

There would have been nothing to protest aganist ( Protestant)

There was a protest because of the rotten state of the CC. What people forget is that “protest” is a word with two meanings:​

• speak against
• bear witness to
  They would have Christ - He is not the Church’s prisoner or lapdog, but its Lord: & the sins of men cannot hinder Him. If the CC fell away tomorrow, He would still be Lord & Saviour. If every Church on earth fell away, His power to save would be unchanged.

Without Christ we would have nothing - not “without the Church”.

• Christ is Lord - the Church is not
• Christ was crucified for us - the Church was not
• Christ died for our sins - the Church did not
• Christ reconciled us to His Father - the Church did not
  Did the Church create all things ? No. Nor is the Church to come in glory to judge all mankind, for it not the Church that sits at the right hand of the Father, but Christ.

The Holy Spirit could easily convert all the elect by working in their hearts to reveal Christ to them, without involving other men. But without Christ, we cannot even exist, let alone be elected or saved.

There would be no Christianity as Christ once again is the Church and the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.

What is diffulcult here to figure out?

What is absolutely impossible - not difficult - is to see how a weak, dependent, created thing, composed of sinners, can be given a status like His. We cannot put our hopes in any creatures, for they are not more reliable than God has made them. God can be trusted without limit, & ought to be - but no creature (& all Churches are creatures) can be trusted so greatly.​

The Protestant Churches are falling apart today and splitting
(33,000 + denominations) quicker than an amobea –

Do you know there are more Church going Catholics in England now than Protestants that attend church.

Did you know that seven out of ten Catholics in England are “lapsed” ?​

Since when was God was impressed by numbers or size ? There was plenty of boasting & crowing of that kind by Catholics in the '50s - then, after Vatican 2, there was rather less of it. God humbles the proud and exalts the lowly. Protestants are our fellow-Christians - not our competitors, even less our enemies. No one gains by the
weakness of Protestantism in the UK, except the world. If Protestantism is weak, Christ is not being preached & the righteousness & grace of God are not being made known. Most people in the UK are not Catholics & are most unlikely ever to become Catholics, so the weakness of Protestantism means that the Great Commission of Matthew 28 is not being fulfilled. That is not something Catholics can take pleasure in .

Keep an eye on alot of Europe today it tells a big story.

They certainly would not hold together for there whole being is the big protest.

Without the Church to pick on they would tear eachother apart.

This Catholic triumphalism is very off-putting - & if I find it off-putting, how is it going to impress Protestants ? And the same goes for this Catholic martyr-complex.​

As for picking on the Church:

• It’s not important enough
• Most people have far better things to do
• Protestantism is held together by Christ - not by some grossly exaggerated shared hatred of the CC
• Catholics don’t need Protestants to tear apart - they are very good at rending one another as it is; so why should Protestants need the CC to hate ?
• Except for the Fundamentalistic sects, Protestants & Catholics generally get on rather well. Places like Northern Ireland were notable because they were exceptional; & the de facto segregation there used to be was never universal, & is certainly not now.
• The world does does not revolve around the CC.

 

[c659smith]

So long as God preserves it from doing so. Without Him to restrain us, there is no evil we are not capable of committing - “us” being Christians of all kinds## That’s an over-simplification - if it were so, the Church should be sinless. Many of its acts show it is not. It is holy - but it is not sinless. The holiness of the Church is the Holiness of Christ - & being we are sinners, that Holiness is obscured. ## There was a protest because of the rotten state of the CC. What people forget is that “protest” is a word with two meanings:​

• speak against
• bear witness to
  They would have Christ - He is not the Church’s prisoner or lapdog, but its Lord: & the sins of men cannot hinder Him. If the CC fell away tomorrow, He would still be Lord & Saviour. If every Church on earth fell away, His power to save would be unchanged.

Without Christ we would have nothing - not “without the Church”.

• Christ is Lord - the Church is not
• Christ was crucified for us - the Church was not
• Christ died for our sins - the Church did not
• Christ reconciled us to His Father - the Church did not
  Did the Church create all things ? No. Nor is the Church to come in glory to judge all mankind, for it not the Church that sits at the right hand of the Father, but Christ.

The Holy Spirit could easily convert all the elect by working in their hearts to reveal Christ to them, without involving other men. But without Christ, we cannot even exist, let alone be elected or saved. ## What is absolutely impossible - not difficult - is to see how a weak, dependent, created thing, composed of sinners, can be given a status like His. We cannot put our hopes in any creatures, for they are not more reliable than God has made them. God can be trusted without limit, & ought to be - but no creature (& all Churches are creatures) can be trusted so greatly. ## Did you know that seven out of ten Catholics in England are “lapsed” ?

Since when was God was impressed by numbers or size ? There was plenty of boasting & crowing of that kind by Catholics in the '50s - then, after Vatican 2, there was rather less of it. God humbles the proud and exalts the lowly. Protestants are our fellow-Christians - not our competitors, even less our enemies. No one gains by the
weakness of Protestantism in the UK, except the world. If Protestantism is weak, Christ is not being preached & the righteousness & grace of God are not being made known. Most people in the UK are not Catholics & are most unlikely ever to become Catholics, so the weakness of Protestantism means that the Great Commission of Matthew 28 is not being fulfilled. That is not something Catholics can take pleasure in . ## This Catholic triumphalism is very off-putting - & if I find it off-putting, how is it going to impress Protestants ? And the same goes for this Catholic martyr-complex.

As for picking on the Church:

• It’s not important enough
• Most people have far better things to do
• Protestantism is held together by Christ - not by some grossly exaggerated shared hatred of the CC
• Catholics don’t need Protestants to tear apart - they are very good at rending one another as it is; so why should Protestants need the CC to hate ?
• Except for the Fundamentalistic sects, Protestants & Catholics generally get on rather well. Places like Northern Ireland were notable because they were exceptional; & the de facto segregation there used to be was never universal, & is certainly not now.
• The world does does not revolve around the CC.

It is not over simplified

The Church is sinless are you saying Christ committs sin?

Man committs sin not the Church

Christ promised that this Church – His Church will not fall.

Christ began the Church with the Apostles even one of his Chosen Judas Iscariot committed grave sin. That does not mean His Church is fallible but the men in it may be.

We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17).

Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 (“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail”), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").
Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).

So the church could never sin.

 

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This thread obviously contradicts the notion of “Catholic Unity”.