Do Protestants have "Faith"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter roguejim
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have a question, and this may need to be put on a separate thread but since it was raised here…

Earlier in the thread someone made the comment that the catholic church IS Christ.

I thought the Church was the Bride of Christ, not Christ Himself…
 
Mozart-250,

Jesus cannot be divided because Jesus and the father are one, so there must be only one true religion. You grew up in a false religion. Protestantism is a man-made religion that does not come from Jesus Christ. It was a heretical religion that was born in the 16th century.
Modernists and Catholic liberals have used Vatican II as an excuse to cease seeking the coversion of men from false religions.
I only write about what the Church has taught. That is found in the ordinary magisterium, which is the constant teachings of the Popes, bishops united to the Popes, and Church councils from the last 2,000 years.

Popes are human and can fall into error. Popes are only infallible when they speak ex cathedra, which means they make an infallible statement relating to faith and morals. This has only been done twice since Vatican I. Usually, Popes restate and teach on what has been declared infallible in the past.
The Past two Popes have made some errors in their pontificates. The case you mentioned about Pope John Paul II is one of them.
Pope John Paul II should have had the courage to tell Billy Graham the truth and tried to convert him. Unfortunately, Pope JPII was a holy man who did not always govern as a proper administrator.
 
singinbeauty,

The Church is the bride of Christ because that is the way it was described in the apocalypse of St John(Revelations).

The Catholic Church is also the body of Christ because he founded it and is considered the head of this body. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of Jesus Christ as St. Paul says in Ephesians 1:22-23
“And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.”

The Catholic Church as the body of Christ:
Colossians1:18
Ephesians 5:30
1 Cor. 12:20-27
Romans 12:4-5
 
Hmm…I’ve been told here I can not be a heretic because I was never a Catholic. Now I’m being told I am a heretic. Which is it folks?

Therefore I assume that Vat. 2.0 to you was wrong?

Therefore might I assume that the statements, actions, and attitudes of your most recent popes since Vatican II in this regard have been wrong? For example when pope JP II met with Billy Graham and called him his brother.

So, since I obviously know the truth (having been on these forums and engaged in some frinedly conversations), my chances are slim to none. I see. Obviously you have to be serious about converting me and my ilk if you feel we are all going to burn in the flames of hell for eternity.

So my first question to you “Is this what your faith teaches or is this your opinion?” (just trying to sort out individual opinions from what your faith really teaches here)
Hello and how are you, Hope you had a blessed Easter.

You cannot be a heritic as here is the Catholic Definition,

Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.

Ok so we have the air cleared there.

We can disagree we Vatican 2 but have to follow. If we go out of the Chuirch and claim it as being wrong then we are committinfg a heresy.

We can work within the Church to try to make changes. Vatican 2 really was a modernization of the Church and has proven to be effective as the Roman Catholic Church has grown to the worlds largest Religion 1.2 billion.

There have been recent changes that allow those that felt disenfranchised to go back to the pre-Vatican 2 Masses…
 
The Second Vatican Council is purely pastoral and not dogmatic. The Council did NOT change any doctrine or dogmas (because She simple CANNOT). Doctrine or dogma can develop over the centuries and it can be expressed in such a way to the modern day world (e.g., No salvation outside the Church). Therefore, Vatican II had NO INTENTION whatever in changing any moral teachings (e.g., pre-marital sex, artificial birth control, abortion, homosexual unions, and women priest just to name a few). However, the counsel has been MISINTERPRETED by many in the Church and has said to change these moral and other teachings.

Nowhere in the documents of Vatican II is there any teaching that Protestants shoudn’t convert to Catholicism.
 
c659smith,

What planet have you been living on for the last forty years? The Catholic Church is in complete ruins since Vatican II. There is apostasy and decadence everywhere. Here’s just two of many stats:

Mass attendance on sundays 1958: 74%
2007: 25%
some “Catholic” European countries today: 5%

U.S. seminarians 1965: 49,000
2007: 4,200

The Church is still waiting for the springtime VII promised, but so far only a cold dark winter.
 
Protestants and Protestantism were always been called heretical by the Church before VII. This was done as an act of Charity so that Protestants could see the gravity of their errors and convert to the Church and be saved.

After Vatican II, the Church decided to soften the language and enter into dialogue to reach Christian unity. This has been an utter failure and mistake. There has been little conversion, the Church has been ridiculed, and in the last forty years, Catholics have either apostasized or joined other faiths. Ex-Catholics now make up the second largest denomination. We have been dailoging for forty years with no end in sight. Honest ecumenism, has been turned by modernism, into a form of ecumania in which we reach unity without regard to doctrine or truth. The Church is seen as one church among many, one religion among many, and all religions being equal and salvific.

The doctrine of invisible igonorance can save some people who are not Catholics, but only the truly ignorant.Protestants are heretics even if they were born into their religion and have not heard of the Church and truth. of the truth. It is their duty to seek the truth and find out that their faith is a false gospel and heresy. Arians and donatists in the past, have converted when they found out the one true salvific Church. This is why Catholics have to be serious about converting Protestants.
So, Catholics need to convert Protestants…convert to what? We are already Christian. I just find the sheer arrogance of some Catholics to much to bear. There are some Catholics on this site who welcome us Protestants and dialogue without the name calling but there are some who just can’t accept the fact we love Jesus just as much as you do, but we have differences of belief. It is just a shame and it make me mad that we Protestants have our faith called into question and what next…will you question our love for God too?:mad:
 
Before Vatican II, the Magisterium was always very clear: It is not a matter of an individual’s character or traits. No one can be in the Church of Christ without professing the ensemble of the truths of Catholic Faith, being in unity with the Chair of Peter and receiving the same Seven Sacraments. The only Christian is one who accepts Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Church he established. Who can have God for Father and not accept the Church for Mother? (Pope Pius IX, Singulari quidem of March 17, 1856) Who can accept the spouse Christ, and not his mystical bride the Church? Who can separate the Head, the only begotten Son of God, from the body, which is His Church? (Pope Leo XIII, Satis cognitum of June 29, 1896). It is not possible.

In short, only those who profess the one Catholic Faith and are united with the Mystical Body of Christ are members of the Church of Christ. And only those members can legitimately bear the title of honor of Christian.

The Protestant sect started as a revolt, protesting the Church of Christ and, pretending to accept Christ without Peter, the authority He established on earth. With this split, they left the Church and became heretics. This used to be clearly said and understood, without sentimental fear of offending one’s neighbors or relatives: A Protestant is a heretic because he severed himself from the Body of the Church. He is not a Christian, and certainly not a “good Christian.”
www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html
 
OK…I’m now hopelessly confused. I think I am going to retire from this thread (and maybe take a break from the internet) because I don’t see any likelyhood that I will get unconfused any time soon.

As far as I can figure out, there are two camps here.

(1.0) Protestants do not have “faith”
  • Critical of Vatican II (in complete ruins since). But that’s ok because Vatican II is not incapable of being incorrect.
  • Critical of recent pontiffs (pope JP II was not a proper administrator). But that’s ok, they aren’t infallible anyway because they aren’t teaching on faith and morals.
  • Protestantism is a heresy and protestants are heretics (Protestants are not Christian)
  • Protestants are outside the Catholic church and therefore have no salvation (invincible ignorance does not apply)
  • Protestants have no faith because they do not accept all the teachings of Catholicism
  • This view is substantiated by quotes from older sources pre Vatican II.
(2.0) Protestants have faith
  • Supportive of Vatican II
  • Supportive of recent pontiffs
  • Protestantism (whatever that is) is a heresy, but individual protestants are not heretics
  • Protestants are imperfectly joined to the Catholic church (via trinitarian baptism) and thus can have salvation (albeit maybe with more difficulty)
  • Protestants have faith in Christ.
  • This view is substantiated by the current catechism and current sources post Vatican II.
I think I’ll vote for 2.0 myself.👍

However I dunno how you can disprove 1.0.
 
c659smith,

What planet have you been living on for the last forty years? The Catholic Church is in complete ruins since Vatican II. There is apostasy and decadence everywhere. Here’s just two of many stats:

Mass attendance on sundays 1958: 74%
2007: 25%
some “Catholic” European countries today: 5%

U.S. seminarians 1965: 49,000
2007: 4,200

The Church is still waiting for the springtime VII promised, but so far only a cold dark winter.
I do not know what area of the country you are in but here in Florida we just expanded our Church to seat 2000 people from 1200.
If you do not get there early enough tough getting a seat or parking spot.

This despite building several new parishes within a 20 mile radius.

There is new National Shrine Mary Queen of the Universe and besides seating in excess of over 2500 has to on holidays build a tent for additional masses.
maryqueenoftheuniverse.org/

Vatican 2 has nothing to do with people losing their faith if anything it should have strengthen it

At the Parish I belong to there is probably over 100 ministries and there is no challenges in volunteers.

There are numerous cultures there from Hispanic from at least 25 different countries, Haitian, German, Irish, Phillipines, Indoneshia, It is too numerous to count.

Something strange though one day our Pastor ask us all to say the “Our Father” in all the different languages. and do you know what happened we all understood eachother even started at the same time and finished the Prayer together.

Remember Our Church is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

What Ministries have you gotten involved with lately?

If not I challenge you to walk into your Parish and get involved. If there is something you do not like than work towards change in a polite and respectful manner.

Go to Adoration and spend an hour with our Lord. Jesus ask the Apostles can you not spend just an hour with me when He was in the Garden.
Ask when there for guidance and peace. You know it is a two way conversation.

Do not listen to the secular news agencies spoting their lies. Go see for yourself.

cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

note the Catholic World Population from 1970 to today.

Jesus’s Church is alive and well
 
Mozart-250

You are right there are two different camps in the Church. The traditionalists who adhere to the magisteruim, sacred tradition and the constant teaching of the Church and the neo-Catholics, who are conservative, but no sense of Church history, and been confused by modernists since VII. There are two different religions in the Church. Modernism is a heresy condemned by Pope Pius X that has infected the Church for forty years.

Let me clarify Vatican II. It was a pastoral council that was not infallible. This means it is not protected by the holy spirit and can contain error. The error is found in the ambiguity of the documents. Prior councils used infallible definitions in cannon style bulletins or what looks like modern day state statutes and legal definitions. Vatican II documents were written in paragraph form which means you can be vague and come out with different meanings or definitions. A future Pope will have to define and clarify Vatican II or make an ex-cathedra statement on its place in history.

It is convinient for Protestant heretics to want to join Catholic modernist heretics together in their blind errors. We in the Church have to fix our heresies and get rid of our garbage and then get back to our misssion of converting Protestant heretics.
 
First of all, I think it’s important to point out to some Protestants (esp. all those who are NOT Calvinists), that this is not an emotional topic. It is a question of Truth. We are not “insulting” you when we state that you may be (or are) a heretic. Some might say that “heretic” is a strong word. Maybe. I would say that it is an objective word that means an objective thing.

Anyway, I would first of all like to answer an objection raised by Doxiemom:
Non-catholic Christians are just that …Christian. Did not Jesus Himself say that ALL who call upon His Name shall be saved?
Yes He did, but He also said in Matthew 7:22: “Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” If Jesus says to someone, “I never knew you,” I don’t think we can call that person a Christian.

Regarding the original question, let’s allow St. Thomas Aquinas to shed some light on it:

Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.
[Summa Theologica, 2nd Part of the 2nd Part, Question 5, Article 3]

It seems to me, then, that if a Protestant, in good faith, (1) believes in Jesus and tries to follow his teaching, (2) is in invincible ignorance regarding the truths of the One, Holy, Apostolic Church, then we could say that he has faith. He is not a heretic, even though his beliefs may be full of errors.

However, the moment that he is presented with the truth of the One Church, but he clings to his own opinions out of willfulness, pride, pig-headedness, inconvenience (that is, the inconvenience of making his outward life conformable to the rule of faith, such as arises when folks realize that they are in an adulterous marriage), or a host of other reasons, then I would say that he is no longer merely “in error,” but a “heretic.” He is no longer in “good faith.” His will has been tested, and the result is that he chooses his own will and rejects God’s will. Now that he knows more about the *real *Jesus, he rejects Him, and says with Lucifer, “I will not serve.” That Protestant has no faith, but a mere collection of personal opinions he proudly cherishes for the mere sake that they are his own.
 
c659smith,

It is easy to be confused today with the bubble of novus ordo Catholicism. I hope you can open up your eyes to the reality of how bad in shape we are in. There is a crisis.
You say that they are building a bigger Church and masses are always crowded. Most Catholics are Catholics in name only. Masses are crowded because those are the only Catholics left. They are a tiny precentage of Catholics as a whole. The rest of the 75% of Catholics are not practicing their faith. They are building bigger churches because they are closing so many down and are trying to merge parishes. Priestless parishes keep doubling. The sex abuse crisis caused by homosexual priests and bishops has destroyed faith. Dioceses are fillling for bankrupsy all over the country.

The world has been atheist for over fifty years now. Europe used to be Catholic and now its paganism and secularism. Culture and customs have collapsed. I’m in my twenties and my generation has been lost to perversion and Satan.

I attend the Mass of all time, the Tridentine Latin Mass in my diocese and I help run a youth group in a Novus Ordo parish. I am catechizing youth for the first time in their lives and teaching them traditional orthodox Catholicism.
Our Lady of Fatima warned the Church about our times and when they release the third secret people will find out the truth.
 
Mozart-250

You are right there are two different camps in the Church. The traditionalists who adhere to the magisteruim, sacred tradition and the constant teaching of the Church and the neo-Catholics, who are conservative, but no sense of Church history, and been confused by modernists since VII. There are two different religions in the Church. Modernism is a heresy condemned by Pope Pius X that has infected the Church for forty years.

Let me clarify Vatican II. It was a pastoral council that was not infallible. This means it is not protected by the holy spirit and can contain error. The error is found in the ambiguity of the documents. Prior councils used infallible definitions in cannon style bulletins or what looks like modern day state statutes and legal definitions. Vatican II documents were written in paragraph form which means you can be vague and come out with different meanings or definitions. A future Pope will have to define and clarify Vatican II or make an ex-cathedra statement on its place in history.

It is convinient for Protestant heretics to want to join Catholic modernist heretics together in their blind errors. We in the Church have to fix our heresies and get rid of our garbage and then get back to our misssion of converting Protestant heretics.
What do you think Vatican 2 changed ?

Mass in the Tridentine rite — we can celebrate

Women head covering --optional

Confession – if front of or behind a curtin

Baptism–same

Communion In Hand or on Tongue***** stand or kneel

Cofirmation — still the same

All is the same the only thing different I can see is language.

What do you think Vatican 2 did that was so bad. state your case and we will take a look.
 
Mozart-250

You are right there are two different camps in the Church. The traditionalists who adhere to the magisteruim, sacred tradition and the constant teaching of the Church and the neo-Catholics, who are conservative, but no sense of Church history, and been confused by modernists since VII. There are two different religions in the Church. Modernism is a heresy condemned by Pope Pius X that has infected the Church for forty years.

Let me clarify Vatican II. It was a pastoral council that was not infallible. This means it is not protected by the holy spirit and can contain error. The error is found in the ambiguity of the documents. Prior councils used infallible definitions in cannon style bulletins or what looks like modern day state statutes and legal definitions. Vatican II documents were written in paragraph form which means you can be vague and come out with different meanings or definitions. A future Pope will have to define and clarify Vatican II or make an ex-cathedra statement on its place in history.

It is convinient for Protestant heretics to want to join Catholic modernist heretics together in their blind errors. We in the Church have to fix our heresies and get rid of our garbage and then get back to our misssion of converting Protestant heretics.
please tell us what are the hereies in the church today.
 
c659smith,

It is easy to be confused today with the bubble of novus ordo Catholicism. I hope you can open up your eyes to the reality of how bad in shape we are in. There is a crisis.
You say that they are building a bigger Church and masses are always crowded. Most Catholics are Catholics in name only. Masses are crowded because those are the only Catholics left. They are a tiny precentage of Catholics as a whole. The rest of the 75% of Catholics are not practicing their faith. They are building bigger churches because they are closing so many down and are trying to merge parishes. Priestless parishes keep doubling. The sex abuse crisis caused by homosexual priests and bishops has destroyed faith. Dioceses are fillling for bankrupsy all over the country.

The world has been atheist for over fifty years now. Europe used to be Catholic and now its paganism and secularism. Culture and customs have collapsed. I’m in my twenties and my generation has been lost to perversion and Satan.

I attend the Mass of all time, the Tridentine Latin Mass in my diocese and I help run a youth group in a Novus Ordo parish. I am catechizing youth for the first time in their lives and teaching them traditional orthodox Catholicism.
Our Lady of Fatima warned the Church about our times and when they release the third secret people will find out the truth.
As far as central Florida you are incorrect --the Catholic Church is alive and strong.

In my Parish we have 3 priests, 2 deacons, 4 brothers, Numerous Nuns

We call eachother brother and sister–we smile–we share our faith

We are in the bible belt here and are out numbered by Baptists but we continue to convert others

We march and pray at the Abortion Clinics with our Bishop and priests.

JMJ is alive and well.

There are 4 masses daily— there is 24 hour Adoration–

Saturday Mass–4:30pm & 6:30 pm

Sunday Masses 7:30 am–9am–10:30 am–12 noon–1:30 pm–6:30 Pm

17 baptisms alone at Easter Vigil

Baptisms at every Mass

I am originally from the North east and have a couple of years ago gone to Mass there and was surprised by the music and the I’m OK your ok message.

I have visited many different parishes in this country and would say that the Norht East and California has some challenges. But the rest are strong.

As far as the Abuse scandal it will make us stronger. have faith.

Glad to hear you are involved with your Parish.
 
What do you think Vatican 2 changed ?

Mass in the Tridentine rite — we can celebrate

Women head covering --optional

Confession – if front of or behind a curtin

Baptism–same

Communion In Hand or on Tongue***** stand or kneel

Cofirmation — still the same

All is the same the only thing different I can see is language.

What do you think Vatican 2 did that was so bad. state your case and we will take a look.
I am not the person you asked, and maybe I am not understanding you correctly, but there is more then just language. For example, during confirmation before V2, the bishop said, “N., I sign thee with the sign + of the Cross, and I confirm thee with the chrism of salvation; in the Name of the Father + and of the Son + and of the Holy + Ghost.”. The current rite of confirmation requires him to say something else.
The current rite also eliminates the slight tap on the cheeck while the bishop says Pax tecum.
Pre V2, communion was only received kneeling and on the tongue.
I could go on, but will stop here.
 
c659smith,

Vatican II was not needed. It was the invention of Pope John XXIII.
The Church has always called a coucil when there was a dispute over doctrine. Vatican II was called for I don’t know what, only Pope John knows. The greatest threat at the time was from atheistic communism and Vatican II did not adress it. Not a single word about the greatest threat that was communism in the documents.
If anyone reads the constitution on the liturgy, it in no way gave permisssion for what happened with the new Mass. It was not the intention of Vatican II to have the priest face the people. It did not ban Latin, it only gave permission for the vernacular to be used in certain parts of the Mass.

Communion on the hand: forbidden by the Church berfore VII, and was started in Holland out of disobedience.
Altar girls: Never given permission from Rome.
Vatican II never gave permission for lay ministers of holy communion.

The new Mass was created by Cardinal Bugnini and six Protestant ministers. The Latin Mass was considered forbidden by bishops and Catholics until Pope Benedict said it was nver abrogated and any priest can say it without permission.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top