Do Protestants have "Faith"?

[saint_rafael]

sycarl,

Catechisms themselves are not infallible. The teachings they convey are infallible. Most Catechisms are great ( Trent, Puis X, Baltimore), but there can be confusion if they are written badly.

The '92 Catechism is one that needs to be looked with suspicion since Pope JPII was obessed with stamping every area of the Church with the spirit of VII. It was put together with those Cardinals who have been caught up in modernism. It was written in the same style of the VII documents. Long paragraphs that go on and on and can cause confusion. I prefer the Baltimore Catechism and older ones because it is simple direct Q&A. No vagueness and no ambiguity. Every line came from a Pope, saint, or doctor of the Church.

The term separated brother is a colloquial term that has no dogmatic meaning or weight. Heretic is a dogmatic term used by the Church magisterium. The catechism uses brother in a collequial sense.

The Catechism is right that Protestants become sanctifyed by baptism. What the Catechism doesn’t tell you is that Protestants loose their grace upon mortal sin and without the sacraments of the Church, they are in trouble because they haven’t recanted their heresy. It is almost impossible for Protestants to live their whole lives without committing mortal sin and to continue in a state of ignorance in which they never hear about Catholicism.

 

[saint_rafael]

sycarl,

I read your last post, I take it you must be a Protestant.

You say that you don’t care what anybody says, you rely on God,
However God speaks through his only one true Church which is the Catholic Church. If you want to know God’s will, it is only found in Catholicism. You are relying on subjectivism of your feelings. You are denying objective truth. That there a right and a wrong. God is one and cannot be divided, so his religion is one and the only true one.

As a person who is not ignorant, has read the Catechism, and is a senior member of a Catholic forum, must now realize that you are obligated to enter the Church and leave behind heresy. You will not be saved without converting to the Church.

It is amazing there are so many Protestant senior members of this forum, who have not decided to convert. They have found the truth and cannot be saved without conversion. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation is de fide infallible dogma that is true yesterday, today, and forever.

God despises all religions except the Roman Catholicism, the one true Christian religion.

 

[saint_rafael]

For those on this forum,

What’s with this OP business?

I am sure it has nothing to do with the DominiCani.

I would sure like to be assoiciated with those folks.

 

[wisdomseeker]

sycarl,

I read your last post, I take it you must be a Protestant.

You say that you don’t care what anybody says, you rely on God,
However God speaks through his only one true Church which is the Catholic Church. If you want to know God’s will, it is only found in Catholicism. You are relying on subjectivism of your feelings. You are denying objective truth. That there a right and a wrong. God is one and cannot be divided, so his religion is one and the only true one.

As a person who is not ignorant, has read the Catechism, and is a senior member of a Catholic forum, must now realize that you are obligated to enter the Church and leave behind heresy. You will not be saved without converting to the Church.

It is amazing there are so many Protestant senior members of this forum, who have not decided to convert. They have found the truth and cannot be saved without conversion. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation is de fide infallible dogma that is true yesterday, today, and forever.

God despises all religions except the Roman Catholicism, the one true Christian religion.

it amazes me that people insist in believing that their congregations is the same as the catholic church or Our God as the same God. Now, why would Jesus say I will build my Church and then go to some other churches?

 

[justasking4]

sycarl,

I read your last post, I take it you must be a Protestant.

You say that you don’t care what anybody says, you rely on God,
However God speaks through his only one true Church which is the Catholic Church. If you want to know God’s will, it is only found in Catholicism. You are relying on subjectivism of your feelings. You are denying objective truth. That there a right and a wrong. God is one and cannot be divided, so his religion is one and the only true one.

As a person who is not ignorant, has read the Catechism, and is a senior member of a Catholic forum, must now realize that you are obligated to enter the Church and leave behind heresy. You will not be saved without converting to the Church.

It is amazing there are so many Protestant senior members of this forum, who have not decided to convert. They have found the truth and cannot be saved without conversion. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation is de fide infallible dogma that is true yesterday, today, and forever.

God despises all religions except the Roman Catholicism, the one true Christian religion.

If God despises all religions except your church and cannot be saved unless a convert to it then what am i to make of these statements from the catechism:
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[Walking_Home]

You know, I am really amused by the way that the OP came in, made his post, posted some other random quotes to ‘supposedly’ support his assertions (even though Catholics even disagree with him), then POOF he’s gone without a retort to the answers and issues raised in the wake…

Hmmmmmm :ehh:

---

May likely be – that those Catholics who disagree --have fallen victim to religious indifferentism. The Catholic Church seems to be suffering a severe case of that.

newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Protestants are not in the same position for protestants are refusing graces available through the Catholic Church, even the originators of the reformation --Martin Luther and King Henry recognized that.

Look protestants are saved again and again and again. This which violates many of their own creeds.

Here we go… ​

• 1. How is that an argument against Protestantism ?
• 1. It’s not difficult to think of comparable flaws among Catholics.
• 1. If behaving contrary to the creed of a Church were a fatal objection to that Church, Catholicism would be unChurched long ago.
• 1. Condemning a Church by taking its worst features as typical of it is unfair
• Why is it so important for us to tear down our fellow Christians ? There is something badly wrong in a religion that exalts itself by diminishing others.

Catholics believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sin.
Many Protestant denominations are now saying well you really do not need to be Baptized. The reformers are turning in their graves.

Regrettable as that is, it need not make them less Christian. Baptism is not absolutely necessary, for the grace of it can be effective without the sacramental act that confers the grace.​

What Catholics have is Jesus in the Real Presence and graces from the Holy Spirit through the sacraments that are not available to other Christian Faiths.

He is not something we “have”, like a piece of property, but the Lord of the Church to Whom we are subject.​

God is Sovereign Lord of all His gifts; He gives them as He wills. Any talk that suggests that God is **obliged **to use only the means of grace which He has sovereignly & graciously chosen to create & to use, denies His freedom to be gracious to those not in His Church by using other means. For the Church is God’s - it is not ours. His Church is to serve Him - not to dictate to Him.

The two sacramentals that Protestants have is baptism and matrimony as these would be recognized as the bible states for a Priest or Bishop is not necessary.

They are sacraments - sacramentals are different. Although matrimony is a sacrament among us, it is not one among Protestants.​

The truth of the matter is Protestants are even destroying the Sanctity of these with divorce for compatiability and remarriage which is definitely a no no right out of the bible and protestants know it.

Surely no more than we are.​

Baptism well many are doing away with that as unnecessary esspecially the new mega Churches.

Now Matrimony would be valid between a Protestant and Protestant. Between a Protestant and Catholic unless special permission is granted the marriage may not be valid as the Catholic having the fullness of the faith is going outside the faith for a sacramental. For this ask a priest.

The Sacraments missing is Communion, Confession, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Annoiting of the sick.

The reformers understood the Sacramentals but many years later the Protestant Churches abandoned them or recognized they were not valid due to not having Apostolic Succession.

Plus while protestants have the bible as the Catholic Church. The bible is not infalliblie as it is a book. Protestants are missing Sacred Traditions and Sacred Teachings.

How does that - even if true; in fact, it’s highly debatable - stop them being Christians ? God is not subject to the means of grace He appoints: to some extent, we are.​

Plus they are missing the teachings of the early Church Fathers.

Try telling that to an Anglican.​

Some Catholics are familiar with the Fathers - many are not. Some Catholics are familiar with the Bible - many are not. The same applies to Protestants. If Catholics can survive without hearing of - let alone reading - Arnobius, Lactantius, James of Sarug, or John Moschus: why can’t Protestants ?

Reading a few selections of a handful of Fathers to quote against other Christians is not reading the Fathers; it’s “proof-texting”. This does not imply understanding their thought.

Protestants are not One Church under Christ and thus are not one in Christ for the early Church Fathers recognized the authority of the Church and the Real Presence (Transubstansiation)

There can be unity in Christ where Rome is unknown. We’ve been over this.

Protestants are breaking apart and many of them are on the brink of collapse.This can be shown by the many different denominations. Even a Baptist Church down the road from eachother will have different teachings. The same goes for the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, etc…

If at the time the church A Protestant goes to does not meet with their lifestyle than Protestants will change their church.

Now what the Catholic Church says is that the Church is not the Judge and that Jesus is.

Which makes our comments irrelevant ​

However the Catholic Church being one Church is the way to salvation. This can be shown by attending a Catholic Church in Rome to Australia to Africa to the U.S… It does not change, and has not for over 2000 years and has grown by leaps and bounds every year. While the Protestants denominations are shrinking in size. as a Catholic it is the same no matter where you go. May be some cultural differences but I can follow along never missing a beat even in a different language. Our Boss has the final say.

Churches which boast of their health are always humbled: if God is merciful to the CC, that is no reason for us to glorify it or boast of it; we should give thanks to Him, not boast.​

If Protestants are in trouble, we should pray that God may strengthen what is weak in them & heal what is sick. But our endless empty boasting shows only how Christless we are . Christian is as Christian does, surely ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If God despises all religions except your church and cannot be saved unless a convert to it then what am i to make of these statements from the catechism:
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

**The Catechism is the source to rely on. If Catholics ****contradict it, or deny its teaching - that is not a reflection on the Catechism. **​

Protestants do not lack faith, merely by being “outside” the CC. Any obstacles to faith there may be, are obstacles for Catholics too.** The Gospel is clear that the grace of God is not limited to “the usual channels”. I hope that quotation from paragraph 819 answers the question in the title of the thread. **

**BTW: Papal infallibility is not compromised by disobedience: if human disobedience invalidated Divine authority, there would be no People of God left. There are objections to Papal Infallibility, as there are to just about anything, but Catholic failure to attend to a Catholic authority is not one of them. The difference between the CCC & posts by Catholics on a message-board, is that the CCC is written by men who know the details of what they are talking about; most Catholics lack that depth of understanding in theology & associated sciences, so don’t. **

**I hope that clears that up. **

 

[guanophore]

Sometimes attacks against protestants must be answered as you susggest here— pointing out the log in the attackers eyes. If i was making these things up it would be right to accuse me of making a false witness but these are not false accusations but true facts.

This is the world as you see it, ja4. Others do not share your opinion, including Jesus and the Apostles. The writers of the NT did not share your opinions either.

The attacking is being done by you and other catholics who mock protestants for Sola Scriptura which is a direct atttack on the Scriptures themselves and imply and call some protestants bigots.

No, the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with the Holy Writings themselves. They do not teach any such thing, and they were not written to serve such a role. The New Testament is a Catholic book, so don’t be surprised if Catholics are offended when those who reject the TEachings of the authors misconstrue it’s contents.

Bigotry exists in Catholics as well as Protestants, and also has nothing to do with the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura, except for the possibility that the false doctrine appears to reinforce it.

Here is an example of bigotry, presumably written by a Roman Catholic:

God despises all religions except the Roman Catholicism, the one true Christian religion.

I am very thankful to God that this is not the case.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have watched this thread with some interest. First I don’t really care whether any particular Catholic thinks I don’t have Faith. I know that I do and the only one whose opinion I care about is God.

That being said, I think this thread shows the remarkable advantage that the Catholic Church has in having an infallible authority and how its members are obediant to that authority.

Now, if Catholics could only agree about what that infallible authority says.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the following about non-Catholic Christians:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

This seems to be pretty clear in what it says. But then maybe the Catechism is wrong and the Church is teaching error through it. Of course, that can’t be because the Church can’t err in matters of faith and morals and promulgating an inaccurate Catechism for the laity would certainly mean such an error had taken place.

Of course there are all those saints and popes who appear to say different things than the Catechism. Were they in error or has the Church changed its view? We know that can’t be the case because the Catholic Church doesn’t change doctrine.

**The CCC is authoritative, & in a very high degree - it is not of itself infallible; though parts are. It is a reliable expression of the Church’s teaching authority, & therefore, its teaching is authentic. **​

**As for changing doctrine - this is an extremely complex issue, because it is bound up with the issues of doctrinal development, continuity of Tradition, sources of authority, & the history of these topics. It is impossible to deal with this body of issues on a message-board. **

One can judge past utterances by the present, or those of the present by the past. Which one does, affects what one thinks of the orthodoxy of Vatican II & the CCC.

So between the Catechism (and other recent statements and actions by popes and others) and the sayings of other popes and saints so bountifully quoted in this thread there must be some consistent truth being taught. The problem is that Catholics can’t seem to tell what that truth is.

**If the past is seen as preparing for the present, & both of them as stages in the purposes of God in His world (which STM to be likely, as that is how the OT is related to the NT), then the doctrine of the past is more completely expressed in the present than it used to be. (God Willing, it will be even more completely expressed in the future.) If that is so, then the teaching of Vatican II is more adequate than that of earlier councils: it could learn from them - but they, being earlier, could not learn from it. **​

**In practice, & as a rule of thumb: the later the teaching, the less incomplete its expression (there are of course many problems with such a theory). ****That is not a contradiction of the past, so much as a going beyond it. Faithfulness to Tradition may entail seeming to contradict it; not going beyond it, can be a failure in faithfulness. When the Messiah came, He looked very unlike some of what had been said of Him - the Fulfilment was better than, & truer than, & looked different from, the earlier words about it. Something like this, but on a much smaller scale, is IMO is a feature of His Church’s life, & so, of its intellectual life: its tradition of teaching His doctrine. **

The result we find, as demonstrated in this thread, is that Catholics can be seen indulging in what they so often condemn Protestants for doing: engaging in private interpretation and cherry-picking. If we don’t like what one document of the Church says, let’s say that it isn’t authoritative and infallible. They we can find other statements that are more to our liking and follow those.

If we don’t like what the current leadership says we don’t have to obey it as long as we can find something saying the contrary that we can agree with. We only have to accept and obey what the Church currently says if we happen to agree with it. If we don’t agree with it we can say it is wrong and do what we want.

So much for an infallible authority and so much for obediance.

**All too true However, lack of faithfulness to the Church’s teaching does not invalidate the infallibility of the Church. The ****murmuring & rebellion of the Israelites did not in the slightest invalidate the Divine authority of Moses, nor their sins the value & authority & obligation of the Commandments. So with the CC today. **​

 

[saint_rafael]

sycarl,

Like I said, Catechisms themselves are not infallible. The material inside it SHOULD be infallible teaching. It is possible to have catechisms that are poorly written and do not teach what the magisterium has always taught.

I have the '92 Catechism and I read 818 and 819. All I can say is that it is not what the Magisterium has taught. This contradicts Trent It is infected with the spirit of Vatican II. The footnotes of 818 and 819 cite the documents from Vatican II and those documents are not dogmatic or binding.

818 and 819 are error and it is apparent that this Catechism contains error. Catholics need to keep in mind that only material that corresponds with the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium is infallible.

Sycarl, According to the magisterial, you need to convert to avoid eternal damnation. Your defense is erroneous material and not constant Church teaching.

 

[saint_rafael]

guanophore,

You don’t even know your own faith and Church. You are confused with modernism, modern error, modern philosophy, and pluralism

YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCUSE THESE PEOPLE AND CHURCH WITH BIGOTRY:

There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”
St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as “part” of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

Further, it is dogmatically set forth that no authority in the Church, no matter how highly placed, may lawfully attempt to change the clear meaning of this (or any) infallible dogma. Vatican I taught: “The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding.” This same Vatican I defined solemnly that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine

www.olrl.org/doctrine/

 

[Singinbeauty]

sycarl,

Like I said, Catechisms themselves are not infallible. The material inside it SHOULD be infallible teaching. It is possible to have catechisms that are poorly written and do not teach what the magisterium has always taught.

I have the '92 Catechism and I read 818 and 819. All I can say is that it is not what the Magisterium has taught. This contradicts Trent It is infected with the spirit of Vatican II. The footnotes of 818 and 819 cite the documents from Vatican II and those documents are not dogmatic or binding.

818 and 819 are error and it is apparent that this Catechism contains error. Catholics need to keep in mind that only material that corresponds with the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium is infallible.

Sycarl, According to the magisterial, you need to convert to avoid eternal damnation. Your defense is erroneous material and not constant Church teaching.

It seems to me, then, that we have no hope in preventing protestants from spreading misconceptions of the catholic church if the catechism contains error. When I talk to some catholics they direct me to the catechism for further understanding of what they believe. If it contains error, how will I know which is Truth and which is error? If the catholic church uses the catechism why would they use something that contains error?

Maybe this would be best suited in another thread, can I use your quote to start one?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3484783]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The attacking is being done by you and other catholics who mock protestants for Sola Scriptura which is a direct atttack on the Scriptures themselves and imply and call some protestants bigots.

guanophore
No, the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with the Holy Writings themselves. They do not teach any such thing, and they were not written to serve such a role.

What do you mean by Sola Scriptura? How would you define the term?

The New Testament is a Catholic book, so don’t be surprised if Catholics are offended when those who reject the TEachings of the authors misconstrue it’s contents.

Huh? What do you mean a “catholic” book?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore,

You don’t even know your own faith and Church. You are confused with modernism, modern error, modern philosophy, and pluralism

YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCUSE THESE PEOPLE AND CHURCH WITH BIGOTRY:

There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”
St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as “part” of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.

Further, it is dogmatically set forth that no authority in the Church, no matter how highly placed, may lawfully attempt to change the clear meaning of this (or any) infallible dogma. Vatican I taught: “The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding.” This same Vatican I defined solemnly that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine

www.olrl.org/doctrine/

You claim salvation is not possible outside the catholic church yet your catechism says otherwise:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Which is it???:bigyikes:

 

[Singinbeauty]

You claim salvation is not possible outside the catholic church yet your catechism says otherwise:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Which is it???:bigyikes:

According to Saint Rafael the catechism contains errors - see THIS post. So even though the catechism was written FOR catholics by catholics then approved by the catholic church to represent it’s teachings, if it doesn’t jive with Sait Rafael’s beliefs it is full of error. Talk about cafeteria catholic…

 

[t68ware]

But how can one seriously say that one “believes on the Lord Jesus” when one rejects His teachings? I’m thinking particularly about His teachings on the authority of Peter the first Pope, on eating of Christ’s flesh and blood in Holy Communion, and Justification by grace alone through faith and works.

How can you say that you “believe in Him” when you reject His Divine teachings?

No member of any church can determine the amount of belief and faith on has in Chirst. I believe in Him, and He is the judge on my degree of faith, not the Church. Again, apart from calling Luther a herectic and other names which some Catholics are fond of doing, look at the lives of some Christians today, the non-Catholic believers, and tell me their lives don’t point others to Christ. There are plenty of Non-Catholics today who lives Godly lives, and there are plenty of Catholics and non-Catholics who live lives not in accordance with Christ’s teachings, so instead of bashing those of us who try to live like Christ, maybe we should try to point the wayward souls back to Christ.

 

[guanophore]

What do you mean by Sola Scriptura? How would you define the term?

We can use your definition. In any case, the Scripture was not written to function apart from the people of God who wrote it.

Huh? What do you mean a “catholic” book?

Here is a post of yours from another thread on this same subject:

This is a complex subject and one that would require a lot of discussion. Let me give you a couple of principles:

1- was it written by a prophet of God?
2- was it written by an apostle or one associated with an apostle?
3- Does the writing come with the power of God?
4- was it accepted by the people of God?

Who is applying these principles? Where did they come from? They are Catholic, and are being applied by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

Catholics, through Sacred Tradition, are the ones who preserved the specifics about who wrote which books, when, why, and where. The “people of God” to whom you refer are Catholics. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. It is a Catholic book.

Even you don't have 100% accuracy with your traditions.

Catholics believe that God is able to watch over His Word to perform it.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore,

You don’t even know your own faith and Church. You are confused with modernism, modern error, modern philosophy, and pluralism

YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCUSE THESE PEOPLE AND CHURCH WITH BIGOTRY:

No, I will not saint rafael. I know that the Roman Rite did not emerge for almost 600 years, and that most of these Early Fathers wrote before that time. There are far more diverse Rites of Catholicism than Roman, and they are all in communion with the Roman Pontiff. To say that the other 22 Rites of Catholics cannot be saved because they do not belong to the Roman Rite is either ignorant, or bigoted. It is also demeaning to members of other Rites who deeply value their culture and liturgies.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3488093]We can use your definition. In any case, the Scripture was not written to function apart from the people of God who wrote it.

Here is a post of yours from another thread on this same subject:

Originally Posted by justasking4
This is a complex subject and one that would require a lot of discussion. Let me give you a couple of principles:
1- was it written by a prophet of God?
2- was it written by an apostle or one associated with an apostle?
3- Does the writing come with the power of God?
4- was it accepted by the people of God?

Who is applying these principles? Where did they come from? They are Catholic, and are being applied by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

If they are catholic then i have no problem with that. Even catholics can be right some of the time…

Catholics, through Sacred Tradition, are the ones who preserved the specifics about who wrote which books, when, why, and where. The “people of God” to whom you refer are Catholics. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. It is a Catholic book.

Actually a more correct term would be Christian since the Scriptures never use the term catholic for believers or the church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Even you don’t have 100% accuracy with your traditions.

guanophore
Catholics believe that God is able to watch over His Word to perform it.

Do you 100% confidence in this?