Do Protestants really follow the Bible alone?

[JonNC]

=dberrie2000;10162970]Some Protestants may believe that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins–but Protestants, for the main–are sola fide–faith alone.

They do not believe that repentance and water baptism has anything to do with the forgiveness of sins–they would not be sola fide if they did.

First of all, it isn’t simply water baptism, but baptism by water and the spirit. And by Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him–anathema to the faith alone, for the main.

Scripture has it that God gives us His grace as a free gift, for Christ’s sake. In Baptism we are buried in death with Him and resurrected in new life.

IE–do you believe that repentance and water baptism was given for the remission of sins?

Augsburg Confession

Article IX: Of Baptism.

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

and

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

Jon

 

[dberrie2000]

From the Lutheran confessions:

Here bound means more than just “certain to”, but “required to”.
And:

In other words, to not do good works is a perseverance in sin.

When we say that by grace alone through faith alone in Christ we are justified, that is speaking to the way we access justification. It is not a statement that we are, somehow, given license to not obey His commands. Sanctification must follow justification, good works must be a fruit of faith, or it is a dead faith, and not a saving faith.

But beyond that, you said, “Protestants do not follow the Bible at all.” So there must be more than this. Is there?

I was wondering if benjohnson was a Lutheran also.

Lutherans are an exception to faith alone–they are a cross between Protestantism and Catholic. They are not sola fide.

 

[PRmerger]

The Protestants are what I call faith alone–sola fide. Their whole post and pillar rests on the doctrine of faith that is alone for salvation–no acts of obedience required for His grace unto life. May we start with this scripture?

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Well, since Protestantism is a behemoth of beliefs, denominations and practices, it is really difficult to ascribe to them a particular quality that applies to all Protestants.

And it’s also provocative to say that they do not subscribe to the tenets of the Bible “at all”, which was your initial premise.

That is not true at all.

 

[JonNC]

I was wondering if benjohnson was a Lutheran also.

Lutherans are an exception to faith alone–they are a cross between Protestantism and Catholic. They are not sola fide.

Yes, Ben is Lutheran.

Beg your pardon? It was Luther who said that the Church stands or falls on the doctrine of justification. Lutherans clearly believe in sola fide.

I have a feeling you are confusing sola fide with Calvin’s TULIP in general, and more specifically, the preseverence of saints and its younger cousin, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Lutherans are an exception to faith alone–they are a cross between Protestantism and Catholic. They are not sola fide.

Haha! I originally read this as “Lutherans are exceptional” and I was going to give that the .

They are, indeed, exceptional. Esp. my friends JonNC and benjohnson. :hug1:

 

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000;10162970]Some Protestants may believe that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins–but Protestants, for the main–are sola fide–faith alone.

They do not believe that repentance and water baptism has anything to do with the forgiveness of sins–they would not be sola fide if they did.

First of all, it isn’t simply water baptism, but baptism by water and the spirit. And by Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with that statement–but how are you relating this to the fact that Protestants are sola fide, for the main–and do not believe that water baptism has the first thing to do with the remission of sins? Nor do they believe that baptism has anything to do with salvation–nor any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

Scripture has it that God gives us His grace as a free gift, for Christ’s sake. In Baptism we are buried in death with Him and resurrected in new life.

But the forgiveness of sins is not a free gift–that requires that one repent and is water baptized. The free gift went to all men:

Romans 5:18—King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That free gift did not forgive anyone’s sins.

 

[dberrie2000]

Haha! I originally read this as “Lutherans are exceptional” and I was going to give that the .

They are, indeed, exceptional. Esp. my friends JonNC and benjohnson. :hug1:

All men are exceptional, IMO. The offspring of God is not to be underestimated.

 

[benjohnson]

No, you did fine. The answer, of course–is that you don’t believe in the Protestant tenent of sola fide.

What denomination do you profess? I am LDS.

Most people here have their religious decription in the upper right of their posts - you can see I’m Lutheran from one pf the more confessional synods.

I think phaps you din’t quite grasp what Lutherans say when mention ‘sola fide’ - it’s a rather bombastic term that Luther used to decribe how the then Lutheran church denyed the Catholic practice paying for indulgances, symony, and donating money for some of the other sacraments, and the understood need for good works at that time.

Sadly, I would say the term has gottern away from it’s origional meaning by a world that can look at the apparent meaning without delving into the teaching,

If you chose to misunderstand what we mean by the term, not to be rude, but that’s an issue with either your chruch’s teaching or perhaps your undrstanding.

 

[dberrie2000]

Yes, Ben is Lutheran.

Beg your pardon? It was Luther who said that the Church stands or falls on the doctrine of justification. Lutherans clearly believe in sola fide.

Anyone who believes that water baptism is essential to salvation does not believe in the same sola fide the majority of mainline Protestants believe in.

Lutherans are a cross between Catholic and Protestant.

I have a feeling you are confusing sola fide with Calvin’s TULIP in general, and more specifically, the preseverence of saints and its younger cousin, Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Jon

No–sola fide to most Protestants means just that–faith alone. No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation. The Lutherans may be an exception, but there are few exceptions, as to the denominations of Protestants. The Church of Christ is another exception. But very few exceptions.

 

[PRmerger]

All men are exceptional, IMO. The offspring of God is not to be underestimated.

Well, to borrow a quote from The Incredibles, “Which is another way of saying nobody is.”

 

[JonNC]

=dberrie2000;10163191]Anyone who believes that water baptism is essential to salvation does not believe in the same sola fide the majority of mainline Protestants believe in.

Sola fide and Baptismal regenereation are not mutually exclusive. Now, yes, I know there are some who reject baptismal regeneration.

Lut

herans are a cross between Catholic and Protestant.

If you are saying we are not Reformed or part of the radical reformation, I would agree. Lutherans consider themselves catholic.

No–sola fide to most Protestants means just that–faith alone. No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation. The Lutherans may be an exception, but there are few exceptions, as to the denominations of Protestants. The Church of Christ is another exception. But very few exceptions.

Well, I’ve said often here that many do not atually practice sola fide, even though they call it that, so perhaps you are right in that way.

Jon

 

[dberrie2000]

I think phaps you din’t quite grasp what Lutherans say when mention ‘sola fide’ - it’s a rather bombastic term that Luther used to decribe how the then Lutheran church denyed the Catholic practice paying for indulgances, symony, and donating money for some of the other sacraments, and the understood need for good works at that time.

I agree–and it is a different meaning that what most mainline Protestants confess. They are faith that is alone for salvation–no acts of obedience necessary for salvation.

Sadly, I would say the term has gottern away from it’s origional meaning by a world that can look at the apparent meaning without delving into the teaching,

I agree–which translates into most of the Protestants not believeing that any acts of obedience is necessary for salvation. Lutherans and the Church of Christ being an exception.

If you chose to misunderstand what we mean by the term, not to be rude, but that’s an issue with either your chruch’s teaching or perhaps your undrstanding.

Please–no misunderstanding. I do not misunderstand what you are saying–only that most Protestants do not believe that there are any acts of obedience necessary for salvation. The sola fide of the Lutherans and the sola fide of most of the Protestants take on two entirely different meanings.

 

[JonNC]

Haha! I originally read this as “Lutherans are exceptional” and I was going to give that the .

They are, indeed, exceptional. Esp. my friends JonNC and benjohnson. :hug1:

Thanks, PR, that’s very nice of you to say. The feelings are mutual.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I agree–and it is a different meaning that what most mainline Protestants confess. They are faith that is alone for salvation–no acts of obedience necessary for salvation.

I agree–which translates into most of the Protestants not believeing that any acts of obedience is necessary for salvation. Lutherans and the Church of Christ being an exception.

Please–no misunderstanding. I do not misunderstand what you are saying–only that most Protestants do not believe that there are any acts of obedience necessary for salvation. The sola fide of the Lutherans and the sola fide of most of the Protestants take on two entirely different meanings.

Lutherans, too, would say that our acts of obedience or good works do not add merit to Christ’s for salvation. So, let’s be clear, salvation is the work alone of the living God. As Paul says, it is by grace through faith, and not by works. But James is also right, that faith has no meaning without good works, that faith without works is dead.

Jon

 

[JustaServant]

I agree–and it is a different meaning that what most mainline Protestants confess. They are faith that is alone for salvation–no acts of obedience necessary for salvation.

I agree–which translates into most of the Protestants not believeing that any acts of obedience is necessary for salvation. Lutherans and the Church of Christ being an exception.

Please–no misunderstanding. I do not misunderstand what you are saying–only that most Protestants do not believe that there are any acts of obedience necessary for salvation. The sola fide of the Lutherans and the sola fide of most of the Protestants take on two entirely different meanings.

No, I really don’t think you know what you are talking about. You are not describing “Faith alone”, you describing is Calvinism.
In what other way do you believe Protestants do not follow the Bible at all?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Anyone who believes that water baptism is essential to salvation does not believe in the same sola fide the majority of mainline Protestants believe in.

Peter seems to disagree with you.

[bibledrb]1 Peter 3:21[/bibledrb]

Jesus disagrees as well

[bibledrb]John 3:5[/bibledrb]

Sola Fide appears once in the Bible, and it has something very interesting to say about it::

[bibledrb]James 2:24[/bibledrb]

James seems to disagree with you.

No–sola fide to most Protestants means just that–faith alone.

Exactly how many Protestants are you representing? And, Do they know you are?

No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation.

[bibledrb]Matthew 4:17[/bibledrb]

Jesus seems to disagree with you, again.

The Lutherans may be an exception, but there are few exceptions, as to the denominations of Protestants. The Church of Christ is another exception. But very few exceptions.

Now I’ve been to my share of different denominations and I am very interested in Theology and I’ll be the first one to admit that I am not an expert or a Doctor in such matters.

However, you sound a bit on the arrogant side in the way you seem to appoint yourself to speak for most (mainline) Protestant denominations. Perhaps you can share your credentials to back such authority?

So that we can have a more educated exchange: Are you a 5 point Calvinist, 4 point, 3 point, Not Calvinist, other? It will help understand where you stand, and we can then know exactly what it is you mean when posting your rebuttals. It would benefit us all if you can also define the terms you use in your posts. It minimizes the risk of misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

Thanks.

 

[batman1973]

Haha! I originally read this as “Lutherans are exceptional” and I was going to give that the .

They are, indeed, exceptional. Esp. my friends JonNC and benjohnson. :hug1:

Aww, well, I like ya PR

 

[joe370]

Lutherans, too, would say that our acts of obedience or good works do not add merit to Christ’s for salvation. So, let’s be clear, salvation is the work alone of the living God. As Paul says, it is by grace through faith, and not by works. But James is also right, that faith has no meaning without good works, that faith without works is dead.

Jon

Hey Jon. Perfect! You mind if I quote you? I am gonna send this post to certain Lutheran family members of mine, reminding them that you are a Christian belonging to the Lutheran church. And, if they don’t believe me then I am going to ask her to talk to you personally here at CAF. My niece is so brainwashed with anti-catholic rhetoric; she could really learn so much from you, about Lutheranism, via dialogue right here at CAF. Getting her here is the problem. LOL…

 

[JustaServant]

Aww, well, I like ya PR

Nothing creates ecumenism quicker than a common foe.

 

[JonNC]

Hey Jon. Perfect! You mind if I quote you? I am gonna send this post to certain Lutheran family members of mine, reminding them that you are a Christian belonging to the Lutheran church. And, if they don’t believe me then I am going to ask here to talk to you personally her at CAF. My niece is so brainwashed with anti-catholic rhetoric; she could really learn so much from you, about Lutheranism, via dialogue right here at CAF. Getting her here is the problem. LOL…

Sure. Quote away. You know the problem, Joe, because it is true in the CC, too: poor catechesis. If she doesn’t want to come here, send me an email and I’ll email you back.

Jon