Do Protestants really follow the Bible alone?

[Porknpie]

The first rosary I and my children said was at the October HHS mandate protest - I was curious about it, and a rather kind man helped us along.

I’ve often admited the evangleistic ability of the BVM among people who are hurt and need love, and I’d love to see a bit more of her in our churches.

Wonderful for you and your family. Always remember (more for the lurkers) that Mary always points us to her Son…

 

[JonNC]

=Papa Paul;10163797]The Protestants do not follow Holy Scripture.

Luther devised an alternative philosophy to oppose Christianity (Catholicism) and to free himself from his vow of obedience. Luther was a Secular Humanist and Relativist (as well as being Bipolar).

Thank you, Dr. Paul. Or, if you’re not a doctor making this diagnosis, perhaps you have a source. The implication that Luther opposed Christianity is not only offensive, but blatantly false.

The Protestants believe there is no ultimate authority outside of themselves, as each individual determines what God can say, and where he can say it (Protestant Bible as directed by Luther). God’s message changes, relative to that individuals circumstance and lifestyle.

Again, a source, please. And since you seem fixed on Luther in this way, please site in the Lutheran Confessions or other Lutheran offical text what you say here.

This Philosophy spread like wildfire to those hungry to free themselves from a God centered life of piety and allowed them free to “sin” to their hearts delight without fear of heavenly reprisal. .

Baloney. It spread because German rulers were tired of Rome picking them over, and the peasants likewise.

After all each Protestant is a “Pope” unto himself, and infallable when it comes to his/her salvation as long as they can “cut and paste” quotes from the Bible to rationalize their thoughts and actions

Again, a source please. Which protestant communion says each one of us is a pope unto himself.

Quite rediculous actually, but people love the freedom to sin to their hearts content. Luther said “It is better to sin than to perform good works!”

Source and context of your quote, please.

Jon

 

[Adamski]

1 Timothy 3:15
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
15*But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Respect and charity please.

 

[JonNC]

=fordhamstudent;10163656]Most contemporary Protestant scholars today assert that the solas of the Reformation are oversimplifications of complex theological and biblical issues regarding soteriology.

Source, please. That said, it is usually the case that phrases such as these are short hand for indepth beliefs.

Sola Scriptura is indefensible today since it rejects the source of the Scriptures, namely the Catholic Church who compiled and canonized the texts, and it is not supportable by modern Protestant biblical scholarship who has clearly shown that the text of the New Testament with all of its variants and scribal and redactor errors, cannot be the foundation of Protestantism.

Lutherans recognise the source:
Yes, we ourselves find it difficult to refute it, especially since we concede – as we must – that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scripture, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them? - Luther

Sola Christe is unsupportable since it rejects the Church Christ founded as the vehicle for salvation and is a denial of the promise of Christ that the gates of hades will not prevail against the Church. Sola fide and gratia are indefensible since they deny that the believer can become “perfect as the Father is perfect” as the Scriptures attest. Fundamentally, private judgment–a Protestant notion–has only created division instead of unity and confusion instead of clarity of truth.

Source, please, where we deny that the gates of hell will not prevail. I don’t believe the gates of Hell will prevail for a second, regardless of our divisions in the Church Militant.

Luther’s primary problem is he universalized Augustinian theology as being the primary theological paradigm of the Catholic Church, when he neglected to realize and differentiate between the Germanic and Augustinian Catholicism he experienced and the various expressions of Catholic faith in the other religious orders, other national expressions, and did not even consider that one could hold to Eastern Christian views in the Church united to Rome. The Reformers had tunnel vision and collapsed within their limited perspective on the Catholic Church and only judged the Church based on their experience of a localized and national Catholic expression. We however, are called to be in dialogue with the children of the Reformers since the Council and we should hold them with esteem, love, and respect. The children of error should not be punished because of their parents.

The bolded may be to a degree true, and I thank you for what you say following the bolded.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

I have done extensive research on the Reformation and Martin Luther as well as his life and his works.

Papa,

it’s fair to ask what your sources are of your extensive research?

and which source knows he was bi-polar and what does that have to do with his theology?

 

[fordhamstudent]

Some of the more critical resources I read as an undergraduate are:

Martin Luther: A Life by Martin Marty
The Theology of Martin Luther: A Critical Assessment by Hans-Martin Barth
Lift High This Cross: The Theology of Martin Luther by Eugene F Klug
The Age of Reform, 1250-1550: An Intellectual and Religious History of Late Medieval and Reformation Europe by Steven Ozment
Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions Ed. Paul McCain

Of course my all time favorite is the book from a Catholic perspective called: Facts About Luther, By: Rev. Msgr. Patrick F. O’Hare. It is an apologetic work, but necessary reading even though it lacks the charity of the post-Conciliar Church since it is a product of its time. However, it is a staple of traditional Catholics when approaching Luther.

Regardless of what has been said in the past by Catholic apologists my policy is always to follow the direction of the Council on those who are separated from the Church united to the Pope of Rome–to value what Lutherans have in common with us and to speak to them as brothers and sisters in Christ. It is clear that through the sacramental mystery of baptism we are united to the Catholic Church, both Catholics and Lutherans. I tend to have a dislike for religion-wars and apologetics tends to feed into that mentality.

 

[JonNC]

Some of the more critical resources I read as an undergraduate are:

Martin Luther: A Life by Martin Marty
The Theology of Martin Luther: A Critical Assessment by Hans-Martin Barth
Lift High This Cross: The Theology of Martin Luther by Eugene F Klug
The Age of Reform, 1250-1550: An Intellectual and Religious History of Late Medieval and Reformation Europe by Steven Ozment
Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions Ed. Paul McCain

Of course my all time favorite is the book from a Catholic perspective called: Facts About Luther, By: Rev. Msgr. Patrick F. O’Hare. It is an apologetic work, but necessary reading even though it lacks the charity of the post-Conciliar Church since it is a product of its time. However, it is a staple of traditional Catholics when approaching Luther.

.

Thanks for this. I would suggest that there are far better Catholic works on Luther than Father O’Hare.

I guess what I’m asking for, however, is specific sources for the claims you made. I wouldn’t consider O’Hare a legitimate source.

Regardless of what has been said in the past by Catholic apologists my policy is always to follow the direction of the Council on those who are separated from the Church united to the Pope of Rome–to value what Lutherans have in common with us and to speak to them as brothers and sisters in Christ. It is clear that through the sacramental mystery of baptism we are united to the Catholic Church, both Catholics and Lutherans. I tend to have a dislike for religion-wars and apologetics tends to feed into that mentality

I appreciate this.

Jon

 

[fordhamstudent]

Can you give the reasons you remain a Lutheran Christian and have not converted to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches? I am interested.

 

[JonNC]

Can you give the reasons you remain a Lutheran Christian and have not converted to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches? I am interested.

For both: the issue of the universal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome is the main reason.
If this were solved (reconciliation between Rome and Orthodoxy), I would see no cause to convert to the unified Church.

That said, I am a cradle Lutheran, raised by a Lutheran pastor, educated at a Lutheran college. I am, without a doubt, aculturated in Lutheranism. At 58, it would be a big change.

Jon

 

[fordhamstudent]

As you know everything in the Catholic Church takes time to change. Vatican II took over 400 years after Luther to appreciate some of his reforms in the liturgy. Ecclesiological reform, which the Orthodox and Lutheran Churches desire, will take many more years, but if it is the will of the Lord it will happen.

I am sure when we get to heaven the Lord will not have a section for Catholics or Lutherans, just those who have been justified by his Son. You should stay where you have been planted until the Spirit moves you to do otherwise.

Thank you for sharing a little of your situation.

Merry Christmas!

 

[batman1973]

He’ll have a special section for the Baptists, all walled off and tell people, “They think they are the only ones here”

 

[benjohnson]

I am sure when we get to heaven the Lord will not have a section for Catholics or Lutherans,

EDIT: Batman beat me to it

I’m reminded of a story told to me by my good Baptist friend:

A jew, a Lutheran and a Catholic arrive at the pearly gates at the same time, and St. Peter welcomes them in turn and begins to show them around heaven. They witness happy people joyous in God’s love, they eat together, and continue their tour, they bump up to a wall. St. Peter looks at them sternly and with his finger up to his lips he whispers “Shhhh… be quiet!.” The truculent (as ever) Lutheran whispers to St. Peter, “Why?”

St. Peter whispers - “Behind this wall are the Baptists… they think they’re alone up here!”

 

[fordhamstudent]

I always loved that joke. I believe my focus in this area fits more closely with the marvelous sermon by the Metropolitan Anthony on the divisions within Christianity. I will post his sermon so you can enjoy it, I know I loved it.

youtube.com/watch?v=-wtWxW_BTjs

 

[benjohnson]

Can you give the reasons you remain a Lutheran Christian and have not converted to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches? I am interested.

For myself, If I could add some practical reasons to Jon’s reasons:

My Lutheran church has rigorous catakeysis, hymns that overflow with the gospel, great fellowship in Christ, Pastors that strongly and lovingly tend to their flock, and a liturgy that is traditional and worshipful and is done with love, joy, solemnity and purpose. I also have a place for my talents to help out as much as I can.

As my Catholic friend remarked to me (he’s also god-parent to my third child) after our service: “You Lutherans almost make good Catholics.” I took it as the complement it was.

In short, while I’m not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I think I flourish in thanksgiving in God’s grace in the church that He has placed me.

 

[fordhamstudent]

It is good when you can find a good parish to belong too that meets your spiritual needs. There are many Catholics who are conservative who may not have at their parish, which is albeit in communion with Rome, the expression of the faith they hunger for. Good for you:thumbsup:

 

[Papa_Paul]

I find it sad that the Protestants do not have the fullness of the Scriptures, as determined by the Holy Spirit, during the early years of the Church.

Martin Luther proved himself to be a thief and a con-man, when it came to Scripture.

How was one man (Martin Luther) able to appoint himself sole arbitrator between the Word of God and humanity without any authority? He claimed authority comes from the Bible. Was Martin Luther mentioned in the Bible? Is his authority Biblical? Simply does not make sense.

 

[benjohnson]

Martin Luther proved himself to be a thief and a con-man, when it came to Scripture.

If your goal is to get others to see your viewpoint, I would say that you’re failing.

 

[Papa_Paul]

Papa,

it’s fair to ask what your sources are of your extensive research?

and which source knows he was bi-polar and what does that have to do with his theology?

Please!

This is the electronic age, as well as the age of the w.w.w.

Do not act as if you can not just Google: “Martin Luther Bipolar” or “Martin Luther Manic Depressive”

There are various studies and opinions that have been submitted for decades from Catholic and non-Catholic Psychologists and Psychiatrists about Martin Luther.

It is the same for any assertion. Do not take my word, when the Web holds the answers.

 

[batman1973]

Please!

This is the electronic age, as well as the age of the w.w.w.

Do not act as if you can not just Google: “Martin Luther Bipolar” or “Martin Luther Manic Depressive”

There are various studies and opinions that have been submitted for decades from Catholic and non-Catholic Psychologists and Psychiatrists about Martin Luther.

It is the same for any assertion. Do not take my word, when the Web holds the answers.

So, that’s a no on the sources then. Thank you for sharing.