Do "rapture" believers realize it isn't part of consistent Christian tradition?

[Telestia]

Part 2 Of the Rapture Verses

And From the OT:

Daniel 12: 1 - 12

**"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 " Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 " Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” **

5 **Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, " How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”
**

All scriptures NASU

 

[Telestia]

1 Co 15:42-549

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 - 58 [The Mystery of Resurrection]

**Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. " O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.**
NASU

Finally, the word rapture does not appear in scripture (as far as I know), but the above event described in these 3 postings is summarized with the word ‘Rapture’. These verses is what is meant as rapture by those who use the word ‘rapture’.

 

[po18guy]

1 Co 15:42-549

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 - 58 [The Mystery of Resurrection]

**Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. " O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.**
NASU

Finally, the word rapture does not appear in scripture (as far as I know), but the above event described in these 3 postings is summarized with the word ‘Rapture’. These verses is what is meant as rapture by those who use the word ‘rapture’.

BUT, all of this, as well as every single other theory put forth in the past 500 years is the result of the private interpretation of scripture. Thus, it has all of the strength of personal opinion behind it. Some make the leap of faith by formalizing opinion as doctrine, but time reveals all. Don’t all bibles have 2 Peter 1:20 in them? I guess that, privately interpreted, even that verse also means something else.

 

[zz912]

Part 1 of 3

The Rapture is based upon the following Scriptures:

**1 Th 4:13-5:11

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.** For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Mt 24:29-44 [The Glorious Return - Jesus is speaking]

"But immediately after the tribulation of those daysTHE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

If you mean the rapture that will occur with the Second Coming of Christ, that is Scriptural and what the Catholic Church teaches. But if you mean the rapture that many Protestants do, which is a secret rapture of Christians before the great tribulation, that is unscriptural and unchristian.

Notice the underlined in the verses you provided. Christians are called to the Lord at His Second Coming, NOT before. They are called at the sound of the Lord’s trumpet, which will be the loudest sound ever heard on earth. It WON’T be secret.

BTW, funny side note, the word rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, which most Protestants claim is errant or incorrect as it contains the Deuterocanonicals.

 

[andrewstx]

No, not Darby, but a female member of his church. Darby used the ‘visions’ and formed the outline of dispensationalism. It would take C.I. Schofeld to popularize it in his famous ‘referance’ Bible at the turn of the twentieth century.

I think you are thinking of Margaret McDonald. She was sick and began to have “prophetic visions”.

 

[po18guy]

The Parousia is looked forward to by all Christians. The “rapture” is not from the Holy Spirit, and there is only one other source for things spiritual…

 

[Doxiemom]

Very good posts Telestia

As for the word rapture not appearing in the Scriptures…

well neither does the word trinity but we know the Scripture speaks of it

but what i find interesting is that the catholic church is perfectly willing to make dogma out of the Assumption of Mary (she is taken up into heaven )(caught up)(i.e. raptured) and there is not one single word of this event in Scripture

yet

the taking up to meet the Lord in the air, in a twinkling of an eye, having been called up with a shout and by a trumpet of the angel …as it is written of in Holy Scripture…is mocked and denied

it isn’t , for all of us who look for “these things which must come” as a reality to happen, an insanity party. It isn’t any individual interruptation of the Word.

it is a simple plain reading of the plain text.

Rejoice! your redemption draweth near!

In the end, just be ready----------rapture or not, we shall all meet the lord, whether at the bema Seat or the Great White Throne.

 

[Georgia]

Back to the original question:

Many Fundamentalists think many Christians throughout the ages believed exactly as they do, including belief in the rapture. They are surprised to learn otherwise. They think there was a faithful group that followed the original Christianity and that it led directly to today’s Fundamentalist churches.

In that I came from Fundamentalism, I know full well that our church never discussed Darby or the origin of rapture theory. It was a given that the plain text of the Bible taught dispensation and that was that. Scofield Reference Bibles were in every hand.

When I began my journey across the Tiber, I was very much surprised to learn that the belief was not universal. No church I visited before had taught otherwise, so I knew nothing else.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Consistency and historicity are turnoffs for evangelicials. Evangelicals often think of the Bible as this mysterious codebook that was written yesterday and we have to decipher it. Never mind the fact that the catholic church has had the Bible for 2000 years along with apostolic tradition.

 

[zz912]

Very good posts Telestia

As for the word rapture not appearing in the Scriptures…

well neither does the word trinity but we know the Scripture speaks of it

but what i find interesting is that the catholic church is perfectly willing to make dogma out of the Assumption of Mary (she is taken up into heaven )(caught up)(i.e. raptured) and there is not one single word of this event in Scripture

yet

the taking up to meet the Lord in the air, in a twinkling of an eye, having been called up with a shout and by a trumpet of the angel …as it is written of in Holy Scripture…is mocked and denied

it isn’t , for all of us who look for “these things which must come” as a reality to happen, an insanity party. It isn’t any individual interruptation of the Word.

it is a simple plain reading of the plain text.

Rejoice! your redemption draweth near!

In the end, just be ready----------rapture or not, we shall all meet the lord, whether at the bema Seat or the Great White Throne.

You’re not paying attention. The Church teaches that we will be taken up with the Lord at His Second Coming. What is the new invention is the idea of a special rapture BEFORE the Great Tribulation. This is false and unscriptural.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Most Protestants (and some Catholics) do not know that the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings, and that the Bible didn’t exist until the end of the fourth century. A little knowledge of the history of Christianity and the history of the Bible does a body a world of good.

The New Testament was based on the teaching of the Catholic Church, not vice versa. But it’s been (mis)interpreted by thousands of Protestant denominations. The “Rapture” is a 19th century invention, just as Protestantism was a 16th century invention.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[JustaServant]

1 Thess. 4:16-17 - Paul writes that “we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Many Protestants call this experience the “rapture” (even though the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, although is derived from the Latin vulgate of this verse – “rapiemur”). John 14:3; 1 Cor. 15:52 - these are other passages that Protestants use to support the rapture experience. The question Protestantism has raised is “when will the rapture occur?” They have developed three theories – (1) post-tribulation; (2) pre-tribulation; and, (3) mid-tribulation. We address these theories later on. But first, here is some more background.

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. Protestants generally call this period of a thousand years the “millennium.” The “millennium” is a harbinger of the end of the world, and the theories of when the “rapture” will occur center around this period of time. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a “thousand hills.” The word “thousand” here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a “thousand thousands” served him. Again, “thousand” means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a “thousand” years and a “thousand” years is one day. “Thousand” is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.

 

[CountrySteve]

BUT, all of this, as well as every single other theory put forth in the past 500 years is the result of the private interpretation of scripture. Thus, it has all of the strength of personal opinion behind it. Some make the leap of faith by formalizing opinion as doctrine, but time reveals all. Don’t all bibles have 2 Peter 1:20 in them? I guess that, privately interpreted, even that verse also means something else.

well as a former protestant I’ll tell you this they consider their interpretation as given by the Holy Spirit and so they dont consider it as their interpretation but they consider it of God

 

[Telestia]

BUT, all of this, as well as every single other theory put forth in the past 500 years is the result of the private interpretation of scripture. Thus, it has all of the strength of personal opinion behind it. Some make the leap of faith by formalizing opinion as doctrine, but time reveals all. Don’t all bibles have 2 Peter 1:20 in them? I guess that, privately interpreted, even that verse also means something else.

All I did was provide the Biblical scriptures defining what the ‘rapture’ means by those who seriously use that word. Of course, there are always those people who know the word ‘rapture’ and in their mind make up their own meanings. But this happens with a lot of words and/or ideas. Such is the world we live in.

BTW, I did not give any private interpretation.

 

[Telestia]

If you mean the rapture that will occur with the Second Coming of Christ, that is Scriptural and what the Catholic Church teaches. But if you mean the rapture that many Protestants do, which is a secret rapture of Christians before the great tribulation, that is unscriptural and unchristian.

On every subject or topic under the Sun, people have differing views. There is no stopping them. “Where you have two Jews, you’ll have three opinions. How many more opinions would there be in a room where there are many?" Just be thankful that we are saved through accepting Jesus atoning blood for the forgiveness of our sins for all time, and not because all our beliefs happen to be the exact correct beliefs.

Notice the underlined in the verses you provided. Christians are called to the Lord at His Second Coming, NOT before. They are called at the sound of the Lord’s trumpet, which will be the loudest sound ever heard on earth. It WON’T be secret.

Okay. But what if I erroneously believed He is coming twice, for Christians first, and then for the Jews whose eyes will be opened to Him after the Christians are removed? Do I lose my salvation given freely to me by Father through Jesus? Or is our salvation based upon our perfect knowledge?

We do well to love one another regardless of our differences, and love God with all our heart, and strength, and mind.

BTW, funny side note, the word rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, which most Protestants claim is errant or incorrect as it contains the Deuterocanonicals.

Okay.

“Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the universe, Who creates varieties of spices.”

 

[Telestia]

Very good posts Telestia

As for the word rapture not appearing in the Scriptures…

well neither does the word trinity but we know the Scripture speaks of it

[Deletions]

Rejoice! your redemption draweth near!

In the end, just be ready----------rapture or not, we shall all meet the lord, whether at the bema Seat or the Great White Throne.

Glad to make your acquaintance Doxiemom. I appreciate the joy you have in Jesus Christ. And yes, I too look forward to all God has prepared for us.

 

[zz912]

On every subject or topic under the Sun, people have differing views. There is no stopping them. “Where you have two Jews, you’ll have three opinions. How many more opinions would there be in a room where there are many?" Just be thankful that we are saved through accepting Jesus atoning blood for the forgiveness of our sins for all time, and not because all our beliefs happen to be the exact correct beliefs.

Okay. But what if I erroneously believed He is coming twice, for Christians first, and then for the Jews whose eyes will be opened to Him after the Christians are removed? Do I lose my salvation given freely to me by Father through Jesus? Or is our salvation based upon our perfect knowledge?

We do well to love one another regardless of our differences, and love God with all our heart, and strength, and mind.

Okay.

“Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the universe, Who creates varieties of spices.”

Your post gives the impression that Jesus or the Apostles taught or allowed a variety of beliefs, doctrines, or faiths. The NT letters over and over teach one faith, and repeatedly correct errant beliefs. As to your question about your salvation, I have no idea about your salvation. Jesus is the judge of that. But there are many things you can do to lose your salvation. Willful rejection of the New Covenant will cause you to lose your salvation.

Christ and the Father are one. Just as we are to be one. Teaching multiple faiths, teaching multiple doctrines and dogmas, allowing all kinds of errors is NOT being one.

 

[Telestia]

You’re not paying attention. The Church teaches that we will be taken up with the Lord at His Second Coming. What is the new invention is the idea of a special rapture BEFORE the Great Tribulation. This is false and unscriptural.

Actually, there are three views about the the rapture: Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, Post-trib,

I’ve studied all 3 of these beliefs thoroughly. I finally came to the conclusion that all three are valid. It all depends on our faith. Which one we are taken up in is the one we believe it to be. Post-tribbers will be ‘Taken Up’ after the Tribulation, Mid-tribbers will be ‘Taken Up’ at the middle of the tribulation, and pre-tribbers will be ‘Taken Up’ before the Tribulation,

Lucky for me I just happen to be a pre-tribber.

What will be is what will be, no sense fretting over the future. We have things to do today.

 

[Telestia]

Your post gives the impression that Jesus or the Apostles taught or allowed a variety of beliefs, doctrines, or faiths. The NT letters over and over teach one faith, and repeatedly correct errant beliefs. As to your question about your salvation, I have no idea about your salvation. Jesus is the judge of that. But there are many things you can do to lose your salvation. Willful rejection of the New Covenant will cause you to lose your salvation.

Christ and the Father are one. Just as we are to be one. Teaching multiple faiths, teaching multiple doctrines and dogmas, allowing all kinds of errors is NOT being one.

I did not give the impression that Jesus or the Apostles taught or allowed a variety of beliefs, doctrines, or Faiths.

I gave the impression that people and different groups of people, have a variety of beliefs. Even among Catholics there are a variety of beliefs. And I know, and have many friends who are Catholic.

My question to you is:

Are we saved because our knowledge is perfect, we completely understand God and His scriptures perfectly?

Let me rephrase that,

Are we saved because of what God has done in us and has chosen us, or did we save ourselves?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I did not give the impression that Jesus or the Apostles taught or allowed a variety of beliefs, doctrines, or Faiths.

I gave the impression that people and different groups of people, have a variety of beliefs. Even among Catholics there are a variety of beliefs. And I know, and have many friends who are Catholic.

My question to you is:

Are we saved because our knowledge is perfect, we completely understand God and His scriptures perfectly?

Let me rephrase that,

Are we saved because of what God has done in us and has chosen us, or did we save ourselves?

A Catholic by definition is one who believes what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church teaches only what she received from Christ and the Apostles. If your friends hold beliefs contrary to the teaching of the Church, they have put themselves in jeopardy. There is only one Truth.

Christianity is a revealed religion. Protestants reject revelation and invent new doctrines, based on yet another interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants try to make it. The New Testament was written by the Church and the Bible was compiled by the Church. The Bible is a Catholic book, and the Church is the only authorized interpreter and teacher – authorized by God.

There are thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations, all based on the same incomplete Bible cut by Martin Luther, each of them claiming to teach the truth, yet no two of them agree about what the Bible means. And the Bible does not contain everything Jesus and His Apostles taught.

As others have noted, the “Rapture” was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1830’s as part of his novel Dispensationalism doctrine. Since it’s less than 200 years old, we can be sure Christ and His Apostles didn’t teach it. And no Protestant ecclesial community ever taught it before Darby introduced it. St. Paul was describing what will happen when Christ comes again at the end of the world, Darby twisted St. Paul’s words and has ensnared thousands of Protestants. This is not unusual – it was happening during the first century while the NT was being written. “There are some things in them [St. Paul’s letters] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures” 2 Peter 3:15.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant, Happy Catholic