Do "rapture" believers realize it isn't part of consistent Christian tradition?

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To ZZ912 and po18guy,

Please note that I responded to your posts that you two posted yesterday after 8:00 PM. My posts were posted this morning. Apparently, they were censored sometime today, presumably by a moderator. There was nothing rude nor offensive in my post, unless one considers another man’s honest viewpoint on the issues on hand is a crime here. God is my witness.

Telestia
 
I know the Catholic Church does not believe in it. It seems (or seemed, not sure what the climate of it is now) like a trend popularized by fiction. I don’t see it anywhere in the early church.

Thanks
Well, again it depends upon what you mean as rapture.

In its broadest use, it is simply a word for 1 Thess. 4:16-17. If you interpret these Scriptures literally, then you believe in the rapture (in the broadest sense) even though you may or may not choose to use the word.

Of course in a more narrow sense it is often use to describe the underlying theology of the Left Behind series. This theology is might I say debatable (to put it nicely).
 
To ZZ912 and po18guy,

Please note that I responded to your posts that you two posted yesterday after 8:00 PM. My posts were posted this morning. Apparently, they were censored removed today. I just wanted you two to know I did reply to your posts.

Telestia

The moderator may remove my post 57 because I just found a rule that the moderators decision to remove a post on the forum should not be discussed on the forum.

I hope this post is acceptable. I do not want them to think I did not reply to their posts to me.
 
Well, again it depends upon what you mean as rapture.

In its broadest use, it is simply a word for 1 Thess. 4:16-17. If you interpret these Scriptures literally, then you believe in the rapture (in the broadest sense) even though you may or may not choose to use the word.

Of course in a more narrow sense it is often use to describe the underlying theology of the Left Behind series. This theology is might I say debatable (to put it nicely).
If we choose to believe beyond what Christ has revealed about His second coming, we risk listening to demons. I will admit that this is a pretty popular pastime nowadays.
 
Belief in the “rapture” continues to be the primary way of viewing eschatology in many of the protestant churches and particularly in Baptist and Pentecostal churches. When I started college in 1972 the two most popular books in the bookstores were Anton Lavey’s “Satanic Bible” and Hal Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth.” The big hit song among the Jesus People at that time was Larry Norman’s song entitled “I Wish We’d All Been Ready.” The late 60s and 70s were great times as part of the Jesus People revival spreading across the country as well as an explosion of Charismatic groups in the Catholic Church. Part and parcel of this was a strong view of the rapture to help fuel evangelism. I do not hold to the rapture theory now and thank God for good Catholic writers who have helped me to get a better grasp of eschatology. But do keep in mind that millions of believers will still fight tooth and nail for the “rapture” theory.
Indeed, millions of folks may believe in the rapture and fight tooth and nail;but unfortunately,it is no different than those who reject the Trinity (JW’s Mormons,etc).
 
I suspect that Calvinism may somehow play into this. What if the “secret rapture” has already occurred? How’s one to know? Was that co-worker really fired, or just raptured outta’ here? Is the Bermuda Triangle part of the rapture? If I go sailing there, can I trigger the rapture? I mean, the mind fairly boggles.
 
If you are in a closely knit congregation, as many rapture churches tend to be, you have no one in your circle who believes otherwise. The topic of how widely rapture teachings are accepted will not factor into anything. You are simply going to think all Christians believe that way. You have no other reference. In that everyone in your church uses a Scofield Bible, you are going to believe that rapture is very plainly taught in the Bible. It becomes a given.

I crossed the Tiber when I was in my late thirties. Until I started looking at Catholic beliefs, I was unaware there were any Christians were not rapture believers.
 
If we choose to believe beyond what Christ has revealed about His second coming, we risk listening to demons. I will admit that this is a pretty popular pastime nowadays.
Oh I wouldn’t say the “Left Behind” folks are “listening to demons”. I think the devil has better ways of getting to Christians than “Left Behind” books and movies.

It is questionable theology though.
 
Oh I wouldn’t say the “Left Behind” folks are “listening to demons”. I think the devil has better ways of getting to Christians than “Left Behind” books and movies.

It is questionable theology though.
C. S. Lewis might disagree with you on this. cf: The Screwtape Letters. Little things like books that guide one to a gentle slope down are just the ticket for Satan’s use.
 
Oh I wouldn’t say the “Left Behind” folks are “listening to demons”. I think the devil has better ways of getting to Christians than “Left Behind” books and movies.

It is questionable theology though.
If the left behind takes you away from the truth then it is a lie that you are being drawn to. To be drawn to a lie suggests that it was espoused by a liar. If espoused by a liar then the origin of all lies is demonic. I would disagree.
 
All I did was provide the Biblical scriptures defining what the ‘rapture’ means by those who seriously use that word. Of course, there are always those people who know the word ‘rapture’ and in their mind make up their own meanings. But this happens with a lot of words and/or ideas. Such is the world we live in.

BTW, I did not give any private interpretation.
I would pray that there are fewer and fewer of those that “seriously” use the word Rapture.:eek:
 
Part 1 of 3

The Rapture is based upon the following Scriptures:
**1 Th 4:13-5:11

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.**

**1 Thessalonians 5:1-9

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, " Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. **

Lk 17:22-37

And He [JESUS} said to the disciples, [COLOR=“Red”]"The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."And answering they said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, " Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."
Mt 24:29-44 [The Glorious Return - Jesus is speaking]

**"But immediately after the tribulation of those daysTHE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels withA GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
**
32 **"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. **

Errata…The Rapture is Erroneusly based upon the Following Scriptures…
 
Very good posts Telestia

As for the word rapture not appearing in the Scriptures…

well neither does the word trinity but we know the Scripture speaks of it

but what i find interesting is that the catholic church is perfectly willing to make dogma out of the Assumption of Mary (she is taken up into heaven )(caught up)(i.e. raptured) and there is not one single word of this event in Scripture

yet

the taking up to meet the Lord in the air, in a twinkling of an eye, having been called up with a shout and by a trumpet of the angel …as it is written of in Holy Scripture…is mocked and denied

it isn’t , for all of us who look for “these things which must come” as a reality to happen, an insanity party. It isn’t any individual interruptation of the Word.

it is a simple plain reading of the plain text.

Rejoice! your redemption draweth near!

In the end, just be ready----------rapture or not, we shall all meet the lord, whether at the bema Seat or the Great White Throne.
The point being made is that the rapture is not rooted in Church history like the Trinity or the assumption. If the principle you presented is indeed true, any combination of scriptures to support a claim of private revelation could be argued for. Certainly, we know that this is not the case otherwise heresy and heterodoxy would not exist. While it would be a silver bullet to evangelicals for the Holy See to dogmatically define what rapture does (or at least doesn’t) mean, more of today’s efforts are geared towards the fight against secular humanism, moral relativism, atheism. And I don’t blame the Church for taking that approach. An evangelical christian is definitely more disposed for salvation than an atheist, strictly speaking.

To polish up what I said a bit, the book of Revelation in a prophetic (if at all) manner is largely irrelevant in the immediate scheme of salvation. The Revelation is the mass, and the mass is the Revelation because the most Holy Sacrifice of the mass is the Revelation [of God]. Seeing as how this is the Advent and the beginning of a new liturgical year, the mass readings from today were pretty spot on to the topic:
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 13:33-37[/BIBLEDRB]
 
When it comes to eschatology, I don’t think that there is much to be nailed down except that Jesus is going to come back and God’s judgment is going to be poured out on the earth/unbelieving humanity. Personally, I don’t hold to dispensationalist theology, so I don’t think that the pre-millennial Rapture is valid. Then again, it doesn’t particularly matter to me, since, from my understanding, we’re supposed to be living as if Jesus will come back any second (which He could - and which I so often fail at).

What amazes me is how much people want to fight about this. I have a coworker who is a Christian and we got to talking about our views on eschatology one day. When I told her that I didn’t see how the pre-millennial Rapture had solid Scriptural grounding, she told me that I needed to go study my Bible and then I would see it. As if I didn’t already study the Bible…
 
When it comes to eschatology, I don’t think that there is much to be nailed down except that Jesus is going to come back and God’s judgment is going to be poured out on the earth/unbelieving humanity. Personally, I don’t hold to dispensationalist theology, so I don’t think that the pre-millennial Rapture is valid. Then again, it doesn’t particularly matter to me, since, from my understanding, we’re supposed to be living as if Jesus will come back any second (which He could - and which I so often fail at).

What amazes me is how much people want to fight about this. I have a coworker who is a Christian and we got to talking about our views on eschatology one day. When I told her that I didn’t see how the pre-millennial Rapture had solid Scriptural grounding, she told me that I needed to go study my Bible and then I would see it. As if I didn’t already study the Bible…
It seems some people are smarter than the amillenialist Church fathers 🤷
And I also largely agree with your approach on the whole eschatology subject matter. Even on Catholic answer faith tracts, views on the Rapture by the Bishop of San Diego are somewhat lukewarm. Even as tasty as it is, there’s too much pie in the sky and not enough bread on the ground.
 
When it comes to eschatology, I don’t think that there is much to be nailed down except that Jesus is going to come back and God’s judgment is going to be poured out on the earth/unbelieving humanity. Personally, I don’t hold to dispensationalist theology, so I don’t think that the pre-millennial Rapture is valid. Then again, it doesn’t particularly matter to me, since, from my understanding, we’re supposed to be living as if Jesus will come back any second (which He could - and which I so often fail at).

What amazes me is how much people want to fight about this. I have a coworker who is a Christian and we got to talking about our views on eschatology one day. When I told her that I didn’t see how the pre-millennial Rapture had solid Scriptural grounding, she told me that I needed to go study my Bible and then I would see it. As if I didn’t already study the Bible…
The premillineal rapture dispensational Protestant thought has a low ecclesiology and gives credence and support for denial of a teaching Church and that is a sad situation.
 
…she told me that I needed to go study my Bible and then I would see it. As if I didn’t already study the Bible
Welcome to our (Catholics) world. :cool:

As soon as our evangelical co-workers find out we are Catholic, they act as if we just told them we sell children into slavary and drown cute puppies.
Then they start talking to us as if we were pre-schoolers. They assume we know nothing about the Bible, Jesus, salvation, or history.
When they meet one who does (like me:D), they suddenly end the conversation, I assume because they discover I am not a easy mark.

For dispys, the easiest way is to ask them questions you know they will not be able to answer. I asked a preacher many years ago about that verse in Dan.9. they teaches a 2000 year Gap. I also asked him to prove the “Prince” in those verses was the antichrist and in the other verse it was the Christ.
As God is my witness he said it was because it was in upper case letters. :eek:
I thought the man was going to implode, I really did.
 
If the left behind takes you away from the truth then it is a lie that you are being drawn to. To be drawn to a lie suggests that it was espoused by a liar. If espoused by a liar then the origin of all lies is demonic. I would disagree.
I guess I must be in a minority here in that I don’t feel the need to label those that I disagree with as somehow “inspired by satan”. It is good enough for me to just register my disagreement and leave it at that.

But then again I get that to Catholics, all of what they call 'Protestantism" is demonic.
 
BUT, all of this, as well as every single other theory put forth in the past 500 years is the result of the private interpretation of scripture. Thus, it has all of the strength of personal opinion behind it. Some make the leap of faith by formalizing opinion as doctrine, but time reveals all. Don’t all bibles have 2 Peter 1:20 in them? I guess that, privately interpreted, even that verse also means something else. :confused:
isn’t this a perfect example of man made dogma and tradition? something the Catholic Churched has been accused of doing? 🤷
 
I guess I must be in a minority here in that I don’t feel the need to label those that I disagree with as somehow “inspired by satan”. It is good enough for me to just register my disagreement and leave it at that.

But then again I get that to Catholics, all of what they call 'Protestantism" is demonic.
I wouldn’t say LB is ‘demonic’.
Badly written? Yes. The books are on the level of science fiction found in pulp fiction magazines in the early part of the last century. But even that is a stretch because some of our greatest sci fi writers got thier start in such magazines.
The difference is nobody claimed what Arther C. Clark, Ray Bradbury, and Isaac Asimov were writing was based on fact. :cool:
 
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