Do religious freedom rights supersede other rights?

[YourNameHere]

Render unto Ceasar and render unto God.

 

[MikeInVA]

I think you will find that many, even on this forum, have what they insist are Catholic beliefs that are in direct conflict with science. Just pop over to any thread discussing evolution and you will find enough science deniers to keep you occupied for quite some time.

I tbink it was only yesterday that @buffalo was denying that birds evolved after mamals. Would you agree to his religious freedom to have that taught in schools?

Evolution is a scientific theory that has risen to the level of a religious belief with some. And if @buffalo has a different theory than evolution, it will stand or fall on its own merits, as should evolution.

 

[Brendan_64]

Gender dysphoria, as the name suggests, is a mental disorder involving a feeling of unhappiness with one’s biological sex in relation to one’s psychological gender identity. This obviously causes the sufferer considerable distress. Being transgender is the condition of having undergone gender reassignment (also called gender affirmation) treatment.

So is gender reassignment is the treatment for gender dysphoria? Does this cure the patient’s mental disorder? By making chemical and surgical changes to his body, and telling him that he was not in fact mentally I’ll, but was ‘trapped in the wrong body’ etc?

 

[Londoner]

So is gender reassignment is the treatment for gender dysphoria? Does this cure the patient’s mental disorder? By making chemical and surgical changes to his body, and telling him that he was not in fact mentally I’ll, but was ‘trapped in the wrong body’ etc?

I think it can do. This phenomenon has only really been known about since the second half of the 20th century. Before Jan Morris’s book Conundrum (1974), almost nothing was known about the subject by most people. As she says in the book, gender reassignment treatment was at that stage something new and rare. Jan Morris, for example, had to travel to Casablanca for her treatment. So I think it’s too early for us to know anything for certain. It’s probably like going back to the 16th or 17th century and asking somebody to describe with absolute certainty the circulation of the blood as an entirely uncontroversial, scientifically proven fact. Some people do seem to regard gender reassignment treatment as a cure. For other people it seems that their gender dysphoria can be treated with psychological treatment. Some people have gender reassignment and later regret it, realising that the cause of their dysphoria had been purely psychological.

 

[Brendan_64]

If person is mentally and believes he/she is someone they are not, are we really curing them by affirming their delusion and then facilitating and encouraging them to carry out all sorts of irreversible changes to their body in order that they live out their delusion?

If a schizophrenic was hearing many different voices would we tell him that these voices are real and encourage him to talk to and develop relationships with the people in his head? At least there we would not be encouraging him to make irreversible changes to his body.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

francisca.chapter3:

What were they doing that you categorize as sexual activities?

Female bonobos rub their clitorises together. In humans this is called tribadism.

The farmer will go bankrupt if the males prefer males and females prefer females. Animals in the wild will extict very fast too

That’s my point. You suggested that homosexuality between non-humans occurred only where animals of the opposite sex were not available. I was pointing out that it is seen in livestock where the raison d’être for mature males is to breed with females. They are not deprived of females; they are encouraged to breed with them. I didn’t say that all wild animals are homosexual! I said that many animals have sexual activity with animals of the same sex, while a small number have exclusively homosexual activity. For the species to become extinct, all members of the species would have to be engaged in exclusively same-sex activity. You also overlook the fact that in many species not all males are able to breed all the time. In many species one dominant male establishes the right to breed with all the females in a group, meaning that many males are at least temporarily superfluous for breeding purposes.

From the above purposes you mentioned we can tell that it is not sex.

They use sexual activity for these purposes. If you take the example of tribadism in bonobos, that is sexual activity that serves a purpose other than breeding.

What you post here are mostly pseudo-science.

This is my question here: what sort of biology we teach in schools? Should we teach there are transgenerism in mamals? There are more genders than male & female in mamals?

We can’t change biology to match our preference.

 

[Pattylt]

What you post here are mostly pseudo-science.
This is my question here: what sort of biology we teach in schools? Should we teach there are transgenerism in mamals? There are more genders than male & female in mamals?

This is established science and available for study by anyone with sufficient education to understand the research.

Transgenderism has not been observed in nature as far as I know but homosexual behaviors have as well as multiple reasons for that behavior.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Just because something exist among animals, it does not mean it is a normal behavior either.

 

[Pattylt]

Other than caged animals or those relocated to unfamiliar territory, what behavior of animals is abnormal for them. They are instinctive and can only act according to their instincts as far as I know.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Animal behaviorist can manipulate animal behavior, even in the wild.

 

[Londoner]

I’m not sure whether you even understand what pseudoscience means. The examples I’ve given are based on actual science, plain and simple. You may not like it, but it’s true.

@Brendan_64, I don’t think you can say that gender dysphoria is a delusion in the same way that somebody with schizophrenia has delusions. I don’t think we know enough yet about the causes of gender dysphoria or the brain physiology of transgender people. All we can say for now is that it seems that for a lot of trans people the treatment does alleviate the symptoms.

 

[Brendan_64]

You described gender dysphoria as a mental disorder, and I would agree with you on that. If it is a disorder then it is a mental condition where a person thinks he/she is something other than what their physical and genetic biology is.

If this is a mental disorder then how can this be something other than a delusional condition? Or are we to argue that their mental perception is correct (and not disordered) but that their biology and genetic identity is disordered?

A state of affairs where we treat mental disorders with physical surgery is very concerning.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

I think you will find that many, even on this forum, have what they insist are Catholic beliefs that are in direct conflict with science. Just pop over to any thread discussing evolution and you will find enough science deniers to keep you occupied for quite some time.

I tbink it was only yesterday that @buffalo was denying that birds evolved after mamals. Would you agree to his religious freedom to have that taught in schools?

Evolution is a scientific theory that has risen to the level of a religious belief with some. And if @buffalo has a different theory than evolution, it will stand or fall on its own merits, as should evolution.

There are scientific theories and there are scientific facts. Both utterly different. There is a scientific fact that birds came waaaay after mammals. There are theorys that purport to explain that fact. Dear old Buffalo has lots of theories. Which will stand or fall on their explanatory power.

If you want to hitch your horse to fundamentalist beliefs then be my guest.

 

[MikeInVA]

There is a scientific fact that birds came waaaay after mammals.

I’m not a biologist, but I think what you’re saying is that the evidence discovered to date indicate that birds evolved later than mammals. That’s a theory not a fact.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

There is a scientific fact that birds came waaaay after mammals.

I’m not a biologist, but I think what you’re saying is that the evidence discovered to date indicate that birds evolved later than mammals. That’s a theory not a fact.

Then I’m sorry to say that you don’t understand enough about the subject to discuss this effectively.

Evidence is defined as the available body of facts regarding any given matter. And the evidence tells us that birds evolved after mammals (only religious fundamentalists disagree with this because it contradicts a literal reading of Genesis).

The theory explaining WHY uses the evidence to propose how this happened.

 

[MikeInVA]

You are obviously more educated and smarter than I am, but you are confusing a theory with a fact. You stated that it is a fact that birds evolved after mammals. That is a theory.

 

[Wozza]

You are obviously more educated and smarter than I am, but you are confusing a theory with a fact. You stated that it is a fact that birds evolved after mammals. That is a theory.

Theories are explanations, Mike.

A: Something happened (a fact).
B: Here’s something that explains how it happened (a theory).

A: Birds followed mammals (a fact).
B: Here’s evolution that explains how it happened (a theory).

I’m not sure I’m smarter than you, Mike. Probably not. But I know enough about science to be able to correct you in matters such as this.

If you try to justify fellow Catholics who believe things that are patently wrong from a scientific perspective, then you run the risk of being pidgeon-holed with them.

 

[MikeInVA]

If you try to justify fellow Catholics who believe things that are patently wrong from a scientific perspective, then you run the risk of being pidgeon-holed with them.

Assuming that data to date is all data available leads you to concluding something is a fact when it remains a theory.

Thanks for the discussion, I’m done.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

If you try to justify fellow Catholics who believe things that are patently wrong from a scientific perspective, then you run the risk of being pidgeon-holed with them.

Assuming that data to date is all data available leads you to concluding something is a fact when it remains a theory.

Facts are facts. If we find bird fossils in younger strata than mammals (and we do) then that’s a fact. Does that mean that birds definitely followed mammals? Well, all the evidence points to it. But we need something which explains why the evidence is as we find.

Theories are theories. Here’s the evidence and here’s a theory which explains it. Does that mean the theory is correct? Well, it’s accepted unless and until a better explanation is brought forward. Or evidence is provided that shows the theory to be incorrect.

As it currently stands, there is no credible evidence that birds came before mammals and there is no theory other than evolution that does such a good job of explaining it.

If you, or someone you know, has evidence that contradicts the theory or has a better theory based on the available evidence then you can make a name for yourself. If you could just mention me in passing when you collect the Nobel, then I will be eternally gratefull.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Gender dysphoria, as the name suggests, is a mental disorder involving a feeling of unhappiness with one’s biological sex in relation to one’s psychological gender identity…Being transgender is the condition of having undergone gender reassignment

I know what you’re getting at, but there’s no agreed upon and standard definition for these phrases.
At least not yet.
These terms still pretty much mean whatever the speaker claims them to mean.