Do Religious People Really Believe in Their Religion?

[Sailor_Kenshin]

But you DO speculate here. You speculate that an atheist, who does not convert to Catholicism, WILL go to hell. Now how could an atheist convert, if he does not believe that God exists? It cannot be a “real” conversion. The atheist may say the necessary words, but without inner conviction they are just empty words. And God is supposedly smart enough to know the difference. You also speculate that other Christians (non-Catholics) will also go to hell, since they do not belong to the Catholic Church.

That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

Then what do you ‘speculate’ will happen to you after you die?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

But you DO speculate here. You speculate that an atheist, who does not convert to Catholicism, WILL go to hell. Now how could an atheist convert, if he does not believe that God exists? It cannot be a “real” conversion. The atheist may say the necessary words, but without inner conviction they are just empty words. And God is supposedly smart enough to know the difference. You also speculate that other Christians (non-Catholics) will also go to hell, since they do not belong to the Catholic Church.

Any sinner, whether atheist or Buddhist or Catholic, who does not repent of his mortal sins, will go to hell. That’s not speculating on the case of any particular individual.

That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

Obviously. The sin of atheism (like all sins) hangs on the act of will. Willful rejection of God is a very serious sin. Someone who misapprehends history or philosophy or whatever is in a different boat. No one goes to hell for an honest mistake.

As to you personally, I have no idea to what extent you are willfully rejecting a God you believe in, as opposed to simply not believing in his reality. That’s pretty much between you and him.

 

[colmcille1]

But you DO speculate here. You speculate that an atheist, who does not convert to Catholicism, WILL go to hell. Now how could an atheist convert, if he does not believe that God exists? It cannot be a “real” conversion. The atheist may say the necessary words, but without inner conviction they are just empty words. And God is supposedly smart enough to know the difference. You also speculate that other Christians (non-Catholics) will also go to hell, since they do not belong to the Catholic Church.
That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

Mr Daneel,
You must think deeply about what conversion means. A person does not just wake up one morning and BING! It is a process of growing into an awareness of God in this world.
Conversion takes a person outside of a self-serving universe into one of shared Faith and shared responsibility for said Faith.
A vital part of Catholicism is the social sphere. An individual’s deeply personal relationship with God is broadened within community.
Why would an atheist utter “just empty words” if he/she is not truthful about converting?
What would be the point of such an exercise?
It is a given that a person would have been guided by either a priest or Catholic friends or both. Conversion does not occur in isolation as it were.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Maybe it will help if I clarify what I think is meant by the injunction against speculating. What we’re not supposed to do is say, “Mary Jane did xyz, I bet she’s in hell now.” There are a number of reasons that this is discouraged. First, our focus should always be on hope for the sinner. Perfect contrition only takes a heartbeat.

Second, the threefold requirement for mortal sin (will, knowledge, gravity) is always beyond our human ability to fully grasp. We can’t know to what extent an individual willed an act. We can’t know to what extent an individual understands the sinfulness of an act. The gravity of an act is more objective, so that’s where our judgment tends to fall. But the other two parts are needed for a sin to be mortal, and we just can’t judge them.

Now, what’s not being discouraged is instruction. We aren’t supposed to refrain from telling Mary Jane that doing xyz is a very serious sin, and encouraging her to repent.

 

[JRKH]

But we agreed that the same gain can be achieved without a worship. So the worship part is not necessary. And is something is not necessary…

This is not about whether worship is necessary to be a good person. It is about whether worship is a waste of time. Since worship is a method by which a person becomes better, it is not a “waste of time”.

Peace
James

 

[colmcille1]

Conversion is a beautiful act.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[R_Daneel]

Then what do you ‘speculate’ will happen to you after you die?

Good question. If I am right, then nothing, obviously. If I am wrong then it is whatever God thinks my fate should be. Now, I speculate, again. I think that God is nothing like the Christians believe he is. He cannot be a mean little tyrant, who finds some pleasure in the worship of such lowly beings as we are. Maybe he evaluates our behavior in this life, and judges accordingly. But that judgment will never be an eternal suffering - that is the most horrific, sick, perverted idea of “justice” I ever heard. If someone is found worthy, then that person will receive some reward. If someone is not worthy, he might get an appropriate punishment, or maybe another chance. But I really think, that even is there a God, he would just let us slip into nothingness.

 

[R_Daneel]

As to you personally, I have no idea to what extent you are willfully rejecting a God you believe in, as opposed to simply not believing in his reality. That’s pretty much between you and him.

Right on the money!

As to your later addition, you mean that one is not allowed to speculate on any given person, but it is ok to speculate on a group of people?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Good question. If I am right, then nothing, obviously. If I am wrong then it is whatever God thinks my fate should be. Now, I speculate, again. I think that God is nothing like the Christians believe he is. He cannot be a mean little tyrant, who finds some pleasure in the worship of such lowly beings as we are. Maybe he evaluates our behavior in this life, and judges accordingly. But that judgment will never be an eternal suffering - that is the most horrific, sick, perverted idea of “justice” I ever heard. If someone is found worthy, then that person will receive some reward. If someone is not worthy, he might get an appropriate punishment, or maybe another chance. But I really think, that even is there a God, he would just let us slip into nothingness.

1. What makes you assume Christians believe that God is ‘a mean little tyrant?’
2. If you have no belief in life after death, how do you manage to go on? If you see yourself (as human) as such a ‘lowly being,’ how do you find meaning in existence?

 

[colmcille1]

Good question. If I am right, then nothing, obviously. If I am wrong then it is whatever God thinks my fate should be. Now, I speculate, again. I think that God is nothing like the Christians believe he is. He cannot be a mean little tyrant, who finds some pleasure in the worship of such lowly beings as we are. Maybe he evaluates our behavior in this life, and judges accordingly. But that judgment will never be an eternal suffering - that is the most horrific, sick, perverted idea of “justice” I ever heard. If someone is found worthy, then that person will receive some reward. If someone is not worthy, he might get an appropriate punishment, or maybe another chance. But I really think, that even is there a God, he would just let us slip into nothingness.

Mr Daneel,
May I suggest that it would be a rewarding idea if you could perhaps revise your view of humanity. We all know that there is terrible evil in the heart of man but there is indescribable good there too. Seek it out! Be not afraid!
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Good question. If I am right, then nothing, obviously. If I am wrong then it is whatever God thinks my fate should be. Now, I speculate, again. I think that God is nothing like the Christians believe he is. He cannot be a mean little tyrant, who finds some pleasure in the worship of such lowly beings as we are.

We don’t worship God to make him happy. God is complete and entire, without us. He lacks nothing, so we can’t give him anything.

We worship God because that is how we are made. Trying to run a life without God is like trying to run a car without gas. You might be able to get some mileage out of a substitute fuel, but sooner or later, the engine conks. (Apologies to CS Lewis, from whom I’m cribbing the metaphor)

I also don’t see “mean little tyrant”. Perhaps I’m just not familiar enough with your posts to know what you’re referring to. But the Church’s teaching has always been that God’s mercy faaaaar outstrips his wrath.

Maybe he evaluates our behavior in this life, and judges accordingly. But that judgment will never be an eternal suffering - that is the most horrific, sick, perverted idea of “justice” I ever heard. If someone is found worthy, then that person will receive some reward. If someone is not worthy, he might get an appropriate punishment, or maybe another chance. But I really think, that even is there a God, he would just let us slip into nothingness.

I assume your objection here is on the eternal nature of the suffering? For what it’s worth, the nature of eternity is really beyond our current comprehension (sort of like Flatlanders trying to understand Space), but it’s unlikely to be an infinite series of events. Theologians tend to speak of eternity as a single moment. But I’m already out of my depth on this point, so I’ll leave it with the point that, if your main objection is on a term that we don’t really understand (eternity), then please consider that your objection might not have teeth.

Right on the money!

As to your later addition, you mean that one is not allowed to speculate on any given person, but it is ok to speculate on a group of people?

I wish I knew why I’m failing to get this across. It seems so straightforward to me.

We have very little information about the will and knowledge components of an objectively sinful act. For that reason, we cannot know the extent that the sinner will be held culpable. But that doesn’t mean we have no knowledge about what is objectively sinful.

No, we don’t speculate on groups of people. We hope for the salvation of all. But we can (indeed must) make statements about objectively sinful acts.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

R Daneel

That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

Do you really think it possible that if there is a God, he would override your decision to never have anything to do with Him? If you want nothing to do with God, either in this life or in the next, God will honor your wish. That is the God you think is such a terrible tyrant. But it was **your **choice, not God’s, to never have anything to do with him.

If a man commits a crime, it is his choice, not the law’s choice, that he should go to jail, if necessary for his entire life. He knew going into the crime what the consequences might be. When he gets into jail, he doesn’t get to say, “Oh, I didn’t know that was a crime. I honestly believed what I did was legal. Let me out. I’ll be good.”

Actions have consequences. Only the dreamer thinks he can commit all the crimes he wants, never repent, and still get to heaven because he is an atheist. The rules apply to everyone. Pleading ignorance of the law is no excuse in any court of law, including God’s.

You know this, or you would not be at Catholic Answers where, when you leave, you will never again be able to plead ignorance of the law.

 

[JDaniel]

I beleive that not only can he, but he does speak to us individually. The question is whether we are listening.
I know that my parents tried to explain many things to me while I was growing up, some I heard, but many I did not. Or at least I did nto integrate them until much later. I also remember times when they resorted to the old, “because I said so”, cliche.

My point being that, even with the “one on one” help of loving parents, I still went out and disobeyed them, made mistakes, hurt myself and otehr people, and had to learn “The Hard Way”…
To an extent we all have to do that. Some learn earlier, some later, others never do learn…
May your journey lead you back to God…

Peace
James

Well, he’ll probably answer that if god had spoken to him, all those many times, he would have heard Him at least once - maybe?

God bless,
jd

 

[Seeker2010]

Pleading ignorance of the law is no excuse in any court of law, including God’s.

Except, as I pointed out earlier, there are multiple, mutually exclusive ‘rule books’ claiming to be the TRUTH. Ironically, most, if not all of them make the same claim you have made here. Not to mention, have I not seen it written here that to be culpable for a sin one must have FULL KNOWLEDGE that it is a sin? Does believing God does not exist (or that he is of a different nature than Catholicism teaches) not imply a lack of full knowledge of the consequences of said belief if it’s a sincere, if ill founded belief?

 

[davidv]

Except, as I pointed out earlier, there are multiple, mutually exclusive ‘rule books’ claiming to be the TRUTH. Ironically, most, if not all of them make the same claim you have made here. Not to mention, have I not seen it written here that to be culpable for a sin one must have FULL KNOWLEDGE that it is a sin? Does believing God does not exist (or that he is of a different nature than Catholicism teaches) not imply a lack of full knowledge of the consequences of said belief if it’s a sincere, if ill founded belief?

There only one Truth. This is the person of Jesus Christ. Getting to know Him will reveal all of the rules to you.

Knowing that something is seriously wrong, whether you agree, or not, counts as “full knowledge”.

 

[JDaniel]

Well, why not? To strip it down to basics, we are talking about the lack of communication. Allegedly the line of communication was closed down about 2000 years ago. This supposed communication is only recorded in a book choke-full of errors and scientific nonsense. That book was not even written by eye-witnesses, moreover, the authors of the parts of it are unknown. That is all you can point to as a material evidence. Many people doubt it, and I think that doubt is more than justified.

RD:
Neither of us care too much for unfounded assertions. But, in any event, I will just say that no line of communication was closed down, unless you close it down. Let’s not compare the numbers of people that doubt or believe the book.

Well, if and when I will have an opportunity, I certainly will. Because as a loving parent I am sure you would forgive your children’s “trespasses” without a need to “beat yourself up” (I present this as an analogy).

You haven’t been a father have you?

You bet, I do. I can prove mathematically (not just assert) that it is possible to build a world with full of “free will” and without one instance of “sin” - where each free agent knowingly and willingly avoids sin, without one iota of force. Actually free will is instrumental to do it. A long time ago I already did it, on this board, and I never got a valid counter-argument. All I got was a bunch of “but that is utopia!”… or “you just described heaven”, and stuff like that.

Seems to me I read that but was not assured by the premises. Would you mind pointing to the thread, whenever you get a chance.

But you don’t have “infinite” time and patience.

Neither of those are determinants for God. Nor are they necessary, except to those who want it all before its time (for them).

And I bet, you did do the proper explanation when it was necessary. And I would also bet, that you did explain it more than once, when you saw that your child is still in the dark (so to speak).

As I said earlier: I’ll bet you haven’t been a father.

God bless,
jd

 

[R_Daneel]

1. What makes you assume Christians believe that God is ‘a mean little tyrant?’

Oh, they don’t say anything of that kind. But what they say about God boils down to that. One has to read between the lines.

1. If you have no belief in life after death, how do you manage to go on? If you see yourself (as human) as such a ‘lowly being,’ how do you find meaning in existence?

Actually, I don’t see myself or any other humans as “lowly beings”. Christians do, when they compare humans to God. As for going on without a belief in some afterlife, that is very easy. Apart from the “worshipping” part, I am pretty sure we conduct our lives very similarly. We both love our families and friends, we both enjoy good food, music, and life in general. I know that death is inevitable, but I am not really concerned about it. Death and paying taxes are impossible to avoid, but at least they are mutually exclusive, as far as we know today. What I want to do is leave good memories behind me when I will go.

As they say in the National Parks: “Take nothing but pictures, and leave nothing but footprints”. A pretty good maxim, I think.

 

[JRKH]

Except, as I pointed out earlier, there are multiple, mutually exclusive ‘rule books’ claiming to be the TRUTH. Ironically, most, if not all of them make the same claim you have made here. Not to mention, have I not seen it written here that to be culpable for a sin one must have FULL KNOWLEDGE that it is a sin? Does believing God does not exist (or that he is of a different nature than Catholicism teaches) not imply a lack of full knowledge of the consequences of said belief if it’s a sincere, if ill founded belief?

Certainly there can be varying levels of culpability in this and only God will be able to sort it out.
BUT - across the board a person who believes in the Loving Creator God of some description will have a better chance at judgement than the person who rejects the very idea of one.

As to the various books you mention, when I was sojourning away from The Church (any church) I did a fair amount of reading and thinking on this matter. The conclusion I came to at that time was this. The great faiths tend to each have this in common. Love of God and Love of neighbor. In other words they are all based on the Law of Love.
If a faith is not based on the Law of Love, reject it.

Peace
James

 

[R_Daneel]

May I suggest that it would be a rewarding idea if you could perhaps revise your view of humanity. We all know that there is terrible evil in the heart of man but there is indescribable good there too. Seek it out! Be not afraid!

I agree. And I see much more good than evil.

 

[JDaniel]

But you DO speculate here. You speculate that an atheist, who does not convert to Catholicism, WILL go to hell. Now how could an atheist convert, if he does not believe that God exists? It cannot be a “real” conversion. The atheist may say the necessary words, but without inner conviction they are just empty words. And God is supposedly smart enough to know the difference. You also speculate that other Christians (non-Catholics) will also go to hell, since they do not belong to the Catholic Church.

To my knowledge, no one has said that if you don’t become a Catholic you’ll go to hell. The church has the fullness of belief and the promises and authority from Christ Himself. No other Christian Church has Reconciliation or the promises and authority… And, the temptation to forgive oneself falsely, is always before us. It would be best to become a Catholic, but, a True believer in another Christian religion may be saved, too.

That only applies to believers. It says nothing about who do not believe in God in the first place.

Of course.

God bless,
jd