Do some Catholics take it too far?

[zach_dunn]

Hello all, I’m assuming most Catholics will say no, and that most Protestants will say yes, but I’ll ask anyway. I was talking to my girlfriend and her mother a while ago (both Protestant), and we were talking about praying to and veneration of Mary and the saints. After talking with my girlfriend about the matter, she now understands the idea and thinks that it is tenable and has actually come to believe some things about Mary such as her perpetual virginity. Even so, both her and her mother believe that there are some Catholics who simply take it too far and deify Mary and/or the saints. Any takes on this? What should I say?

Thanks to all of you!

 

[foundmyfaith]

I think the short answer is…yes

However, as long as people have been doing things, they have been overdoing things. I had an Aunt, now deceased who had a statue or picture of the Blessed Virgin in almost every place you looked in her house. That would be fine, but I never heard her talk about God. I am pretty sure I never heard her utter the word ‘Jesus’ unless ‘Blessed is the fruit of Thy womb’ came before it.

Of course, I also had an aunt with 13 cats. I go back to my first statement. Some people just overdo.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I don’t think the problem is nearly as prevalent today as it was in the past (underdoing is more of a problem today). But, as foundmyfaith eloquently points out, it certainly happens.

 

[zach_dunn]

I think the short answer is…yes

However, as long as people have been doing things, they have been overdoing things. I had an Aunt, now deceased who had a statue or picture of the Blessed Virgin in almost every place you looked in her house. That would be fine, but I never heard her talk about God. I am pretty sure I never heard her utter the word ‘Jesus’ unless ‘Blessed is the fruit of Thy womb’ came before it.

Of course, I also had an aunt with 13 cats. I go back to my first statement. Some people just overdo.

I don’t think the problem is nearly as prevalent today as it was in the past (underdoing is more of a problem today). But, as foundmyfaith eloquently points out, it certainly happens.

This idea that some go too far is a sort of “stumbling block” for them. What would you guys suggest I say to them?

 

[DavidFilmer]

This idea that some go too far is a sort of “stumbling block” for them. What would you guys suggest I say to them?

I presume this is a hypothetical question, and you don’t actually know of someone like this (I have never known of someone like this, and I move in very traditional Catholic circles where one might expect to find the occasional over-doer).

There’s not a single answer to this question. It is a question regarding human behavior, so we need to understand what is driving the behavior. Everybody is unique.

Consider the example of foundmyfaith’s aunt. She had Marian images everywhere, but nothing else. Maybe he would ask her, “Aunt Edna, I notice that you have many images of Mary, but none of Jesus. Why is that?”

Who knows what she might say? She might say that she is uncomfortable displaying “graven images” of Our Lord, and Mary is the closest thing she is comfortable with, and every time she looks at one of those images she thinks of Jesus, Mary’s divine Son (a perfectly reasonable answer). Or, she might say, “well, Mary is more important than Jesus, because without Mary, there WOULD BE no Jesus.” Ah - NOW we have something to talk about. It’s not the images, but the underlying reason for them.

Such a thing must be handled on a case-by-case basis, with an understanding of the motives behind a person’s actions (because it’s really the motive that counts).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

This idea that some go too far is a sort of “stumbling block” for them. What would you guys suggest I say to them?

Tell them that there are a lot of Catholics out there (myself included) who are also aware and in fact take every chance to point out how problematic that is. I think a good example would be the actions the Church has taken against groups such as the Fatima Crusader (which insists on obscure conspiracies such the consecration of Russia never going as instructed and that the Third Secret is still hidden).

 

[Redbaron998]

As we all know veneration of the saints, espically of the Blessed Virigin Mary, is a good and holy thing.

If someone did, “take it too far and deify Mary and/or the saints” this would be heresy. Its not taking something to far its taking it competely in the wrong direction.

Truth is we can never love Mary more than Jesus did, but balance is good. We should remember that we ask for Mary’s intercession because we want to grow closer to Jesus. As long as that is kept in the forefront of mind (Which I believe 99% of Catholics do) then it is all good.

 

[Rawb]

This idea that some go too far is a sort of “stumbling block” for them. What would you guys suggest I say to them?

Just because some people diet too much, and end up with the disease of Anorexia, doesn’t mean that dieting itself is bad for your health. As with almost anything too much is not good, it’s only the excess that causes problems.

The same goes for veneration of Mary and the saints. In proper amounts it is good for one’s spirituality. How much is too much? Just as a doctor tells you the proper amount of exercise, a Spiritual Father tells you the proper amount of veneration.

Just because some people exercise too much doesn’t mean we shouldn’t exercise at all. Just because some venerate too much doesn’t mean we shouldn’t venerate at all.

Try that analogy.

 

[valentino]

I’ve never known of any Catholics who thought of Mary as being God or Jesus or equal to them.I admit when Mary said that Jesus would like all prayers directed to her and through her intercession I can see how non Catholics can say that some Catholics give to much veneration to Mary. But if you aren’t Catholic you probably dont believe in the apparitions of mary (like Fatima,ect)It Church puts much faith in the approved apparitions of Mary and Jesus and have added much tradition because of the sayings of saints which were revelations to the Church. same t

 

[PiousTemplar]

I think it may just be because of a bad understanding of Mary that some Catholics take it ‘further than others’. However, it is important not to look at Catholic matters through the eyes of heretical protestantism.

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, absolutely, some Catholics “take it too far”.

Good posts, so far, and good observation that it depends on the lens one uses to look at it.

I think part of the perception problem stems from a lack of understanding or improper/imprudent/whatever explanation of exactly what “veneration” means, both in definition and in action.

It also hinges, methinks, on the differing attitudes toward “intercession” both between Protestants and Catholics and within Catholocism.

For example, a Catholic might say, “I prayed to Mary to cure my cancer and she answered my prayer; I am now cancer free”. This is a very poor articulation of what “actually happened”, and might cause some who heard it to say such a person has “gone too far”. Of course, the Almighty answered this persons prayer, with Mary helping interceed. But we might get the wrong idea about what this person believes from what they said.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hel Even so, both her and her mother believe that there are some Catholics who simply take it too far and deify Mary and/or the saints. Any takes on this? What should I say?

Thanks to all of you!

so what if there may be some Catholics who have been badly taught and don’t know the difference. What does that have to do with the truth of the doctrines themselves about Mary and the saints? Ask them for instance, when their denomination stopped believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, which is still part of the Creed and which was believed by all Christians until long after the Protestant Reformation began.

And in any case unless you have knowledge of the soul of a person whom you observe expressing a devotion, you have no idea what is going on in their mind and heart, what they believe, and whether or not their means of expression is simply different from yours and your culture, so it is highly uncharitable to judge.

 

[Cat]

I’m an ex-Protestant, and I can testify that there are Protestants, especially evangelical Protestants, who “take it too far” and deify and worship the Bible. I’ve actually heard Protestants say that the “Word” referred to in John 1 is the Bible, therefore, the Bible IS Jesus Christ. (This is not a typical Protestant teaching, but I’ve heard Protestant teachers teach it anyway.)

Also, it is very common for Protestants to become so loyal to their pastor that they lose perspective about Jesus. Some will actually leave a church if that pastor leaves or is asked to leave. In fact, some Protestants have renounced Christianity when their pastor is caught in a sin and disgraced.

Some Protestants also become enamored with a certain “star” teacher, preacher, writer, or musician. One example of a current star is Beth Moore. I attended one of her seminars several years ago, and I was appalled at the screaming, cheering, applause, and tears that happened when Ms. Moore entered the arena. Women all around me were almost swooning over this teacher! It would be easy for anyone to assume that these women were “worshipping” Ms. Moore, although I’m pretty certain that most of the women in that auditorium knew that Ms. Moore was not God or a god, but just a woman like themselves. But it sure looked like worship.

Same for various celebrity preachers. Many of us remember Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker and the adulation that both of these pastors received from their “fans.” Billy Graham has never courted “fans,” but many people still went a little too far in their admiration of him. Some preachers have actually convinced their followers to give up all their savings; e.g., a few weeks ago, Harold Camping convinced his followers that the end of the world was upon us, and many gave him their life savings. Joel Osteen currently enjoys quite a following, although most evangelical Protestants consider him a “feel-good teacher” who does not teach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, I’m pretty sure most Christians do not “worship” these preachers, but to someone observing their behavior, it sure LOOKS like worship.

Also, I’ve seen plenty of Christians cheering like crazy and even crying over various Christian artists, especially musicians. Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant come to mind. I’ll admit, when I hear a Christian musician that I like, I cheer loud and long! (I especially like Sandy Patti.) To anyone on the outside looking in, it probably looks like we are worshipping these musicians. But we aren’t, honest!

So this is the same thing that is happening with Catholics who become emotional about someone they love and admire (e.g., Mary or any of the saints, or the Pope). Anyone observing their behavior could make the (erroneous) assumption that they are worshipping Mary, the saints, or the Pope, or worse, worshipping the statue or image of Mary, the saints, or the Pope.

But just because someone becomes emotional and displays that emotion in public does not mean that we can assume that they are deifying someone other than God. Only God knows our hearts. We cannot tell what a person is thinking just by looking at their outward behavior.

 

[cradlecatholic5]

My family motto - “you can never have too many Mary’s” statutes, etc. WE ALSO HAVE CRUXIFIXs, Sacred Hearts, etc.

But to love Mary is to love Jesus.

 

[jwinch2]

I would have to agree that there are some Catholics who take veneration of Mary and other saints, but usually Mary, too far. I know quite a few Catholics who talk about Mary all the time and I rarely hear them talk about the Holy Trinity. Its a fine line sometimes but in my view, if your focus on Mary is not one that is desiring to bring you closer to Jesus, then you are off base.

I like a nice healthy 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of praying to the Blessed Trinity versus praying to any saint, including Mary or my patron, Saint Michael, for their intercession.

A major part of this problem stems directly from the Church in my view. I am willing to wager that if I were to stop everyone in any parish in the country after Mass and ask them to define the word “venerate” that the vast majority would not know what it means. There are times when I feel that the Church attempts to be too precise in its wording and ends up skewing the meaning of what they are trying to say and this is a good example. Furthermore, the Church often uses definitions of words as they were defined 1000 years ago while the word has changed in its meaning and usage in the rest of the world during that time.

To the original poster: You have received some good advice on here regarding how to explain this to your protestant friends/family. You might consider making the argument about the things that protestants take too far. Speaking in tongues in the middle of service, handling snakes, flopping around on the floor like one is having a seizure, etc. are all things I have seen take place in protestant churches yet I am sure that the overwhelming majority of protestants feel that they are way out there in terms of how they practice their religion. Well, some Catholics (thankfully a small percentage) do the same thing when it comes to the veneration of the Blessed Mother.

Peace,

 

[zach_dunn]

Thank you all so much for your great responses, I’ll surely pass them on!

Now I have a new request, upon taking a look around my own families house and after thinking about some of the things my step father believes, I think that he is one of the people who takes things so far. As for some background: he’s into conspiracy theories. He reads websites like infowars.com religiously and watches Jesse Ventura’s (is that how you spell it?) show Conspiracy Theory every chance he gets.

Looking around the house (I no longer live there for personal reasons), I notice that we have an approximate even amount of pictures/statues/whatever of Mary/the saints and Jesus. This is good, but I know that he puts a little too much faith in private revelations. He hardly reads the Bible (really never as far as I’ve known him which is since I was one), every time he reads it is about the 8 million secrets of Fatima and other Marian apparitions. Also, as another poster talks about, he has talked to me quite a lot about a supposed apparition that talked about converting all of Russia to Catholicism. I really don’t know much about it.

I don’t know what to say to him or do about it. I have a younger sister and brother (16 and 11, respectively) who are very sheltered by him and take everything he says as the gospel truth. I fear that the longer they only hear his side of the story they will never understand the true faith. I guess I’m just looking for opinions on what I should do . . . ?

Tell them that there are a lot of Catholics out there (myself included) who are also aware and in fact take every chance to point out how problematic that is. I think a good example would be the actions the Church has taken against groups such as the Fatima Crusader (which insists on obscure conspiracies such the consecration of Russia never going as instructed and that the Third Secret is still hidden).

I don’t know anything about the “consecration of Russia” of the “Third Secret of Fatima” besides the fact that my step father puts a lot of stock in them. Frankly, it concerns me.

 

[zjl56]

White some catholics seem like they take the veneration of Mary too far, I would not worry about it at all. Rather, I am much more afraid of iconoclasm or nitpicking of others faith could lead them away from the church. Mary does indeed have such a special place in the story of our savior, and her life of sacrifice and virtue are something that a few statues being around to remind us wouldn’t hurt.

 

[Rawb]

I don’t know what to say to him or do about it. I have a younger sister and brother (16 and 11, respectively) who are very sheltered by him and take everything he says as the gospel truth. I fear that the longer they only hear his side of the story they will never understand the true faith. I guess I’m just looking for opinions on what I should do . . . ?

IMO it isn’t your place to try and correct your stepfather. There’s a father/child relationship there that shouldn’t be breached. My father is a protestant and I am Orthodox, but I don’t try and correct his false beliefs. That’s not my place.

However, with my siblings I (and you) have more freedom. Especially if they’re significantly younger than you. Have you thought about getting them a book on your faith? There’s one I used to have as a Catholic…I can’t recall the exact title, but it was something like “The Catholic Guide for Teens” or “The Teen guide to Catholicism”. I think the cover was black and green?

Giving it for a baptismal anniversary would be perfect. Maybe pair it with a Catholic Teen Study Bible, if they have them.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Furthermore, the Church often uses definitions of words as they were defined 1000 years ago while the word has changed in its meaning and usage in the rest of the world during that time.

Well, I would say that the vulgar words that we get from translating from latin, have changed their meaning, but not the latin.

Too much of anything… is possible, but every group has people guilty of this.

 

[Sandalwood]

Regarding the first post in this thread. I asked my Priest this very question during RCIA and he said “YES” with a resounding voice. He said he and fellow Priests discuss this very issue.