Do some Catholics take it too far?

[TimothyH]

The idea that Catholics diefy Mary and the saints is a misnomer, even amoung Catholics, because they don’t understand the various levels of worship.

“Latria” in Latin is worship of God directly. Latria consists of three acts; 1) sacrifice, 2) Prayer and, 3) Adoration. Adoration is the recognition of God’s supreme perfection, His dominion over man, and our complete dependence on Him.

Veneration or “Dulia” is worship of God through his creatures and creation. Dulia is reverence we give to the saints as friends of God. In doing so, we recognize their special relationship to God and worship God through them. Dulia does not include “Adoration” of saints - we don’t recognize them as being supremely perfect nor are we completely dependent upon saints or Mary.

If we do “Worship” Mary, it is only because of who she is in relation to God. Apart from God, Mary and the saints are nothing. So when I adore God, I worship. When I pray, bow, venerate, honor or do anything spiritual or religious toward Mary or a saint, I also worship. The former is latria - adoration - a recognition of God’s supreme perfection, submission to him, a complete dependence upon him directly. The latter is dulia, worship of God through Mary or a saint in the context of thier relationship to God. But either way, it is worship of God.

Therin lies the confusion, even for some Catholics. We do not worship Mary in the sense that we give her “Adoration”. But when we pray to Mary or the saints or othewise venerate or honor them, we are worshipping. Outwardly we appear to be worshipping Mary or the Saint. But we recognize that they are nothing apart from God and so throught them we give adoration to God.

An honest protestant would admit that they have worshipped God through his creation. Who has not looked at a sunset and said to themselves, “Wow! Praise be to God!” Worshipping the sun? Hardly.

-Tim-

 

[CB_Catholic]

Same here. The priest I went to for my first confession told me he has had to pull some of his parishioners aside from time to time because of it.

Many years ago our then Bishop had to intervene with a Marian group that had gone too far in their veneration and were bordering on heresy. I don’t remember the exact details, but I remember reading about it. I remember reading that he sent a priest to the group to correct their error.

When I was working in the ICU a certain Marian group came to pray over a young patient and they had a banner with Our Lady of Guadalupe that was about 6-7 feet tall which they wanted to suspend over the patient’s bed from the ceiling. The patient was not even Catholic and his mother was not too appreciative of this. They caused a ruckus when they were refused entrance to the ICU and security had to evict them from the property. I would consider this going overboard.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Of course some Catholics take it too far. I have no doubt about it having heard for myself someone giving “all praise, glory and honor” to Mary for an answered prayer. Yes, those where her exact words, God was not mentioned once in this “praise”. I have also heard from a woman how she thought when she was growing up that Mary was the same as God-- because her mother had so many statues, rosaries, etc. So, yes, overdoing it is out there. Yet in my personal experience, I know far more Catholics with no set devotion to Mary or any saint. They might say a rosary on an occasion and don’t specifically object to Marian devotion, it’s just that they don’t have one personally. It seems that from the when people accuse Catholics of overdoing with Mary, they fixate on the minority not the majority in this matter. They are not looking at the true teachings of the Church and do not understand the differences of adoration and veneration.

One of the most flowery, over the top devotional books ever written about Mary was by St. Louis de Montfort. In True Devotion to Mary he lays out his reasoning for a close devotion to Mary. If anyone might be viewed as over the top about devotion to Mary, St. Louis de Montfort might be such a person. Anyway, for all his accolades and love for the Blessed Mother, he began his book by saying “Mary, being a mere creature coming from the hands of the Most High, is, in comparison with His infinite Majesty, less than an atom, or rather is nothing at all, since He alone is ‘He Who is’”. This is true of us all, of course. Mary ought to never be placed on par with God. Such notions are absurd, not to mention heresy. It is foolish to even compare Mary to God, but when we compare ourselves to Mary and compare our role in salvation history to hers, well, then, it is easy to see why we love her and respect her.

 

[zach_dunn]

The idea that Catholics diefy Mary and the saints is a misnomer, even amoung Catholics, because they don’t understand the various levels of worship.

“Latria” in Latin is worship of God directly. Latria consists of three acts; 1) sacrifice, 2) Prayer and, 3) Adoration. Adoration is the recognition of God’s supreme perfection, His dominion over man, and our complete dependence on Him.

Veneration or “Dulia” is worship of God through his creatures and creation. Dulia is reverence we give to the saints as friends of God. In doing so, we recognize their special relationship to God and worship God through them. Dulia does not include “Adoration” of saints - we don’t recognize them as being supremely perfect nor are we completely dependent upon saints or Mary.

If we do “Worship” Mary, it is only because of who she is in relation to God. Apart from God, Mary and the saints are nothing. So when I adore God, I worship. When I pray, bow, venerate, honor or do anything spiritual or religious toward Mary or a saint, I also worship. The former is latria - adoration - a recognition of God’s supreme perfection, submission to him, a complete dependence upon him directly. The latter is dulia, worship of God through Mary or a saint in the context of thier relationship to God. But either way, it is worship of God.

Therin lies the confusion, even for some Catholics. We do not worship Mary in the sense that we give her “Adoration”. But when we pray to Mary or the saints or othewise venerate or honor them, we are worshipping. Outwardly we appear to be worshipping Mary or the Saint. But we recognize that they are nothing apart from God and so throught them we give adoration to God.

An honest protestant would admit that they have worshipped God through his creation. Who has not looked at a sunset and said to themselves, “Wow! Praise be to God!” Worshipping the sun? Hardly.

-Tim-

You are able to say this only for people who actually know the difference between latria and dulia. Which is most likely less than you think. Also, I’d be careful with some things you say like, “If we do ‘Worship’ Mary, it is only because of who she is in relation to God”, I’m sure you’re saying this with the older meaning of the word “worship” but that sentence certainly seems like you’re approving the worship of Mary and the saints.

 

[wild_thing]

As with anything, there are always people on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Some take their veneration of Mary too far, while others do not take advantage of her help and intercession. One must be very careful with private revelations, even ones that have been approved by the Church. They are only to be a help in our path to God; they are not the path itself. Too many people get wrapped up in the spectacle of the devotion instead of the end result, namely God. You can tell when people have invested too much in a particular private revelation when they insist that other people believe and practice that devotion as well.

OP, as far as your father and siblings go, you needn’t be pushy about catechising them. First of all, keep them in your daily prayers- that your brothers and sisters will become more learned and fervant in their faith and that your father might come to understand the truths of the faith more clearly. Secondly, be a good example yourself- your siblings (however subconsciously ) look up to you. Learn as much as you can about your faith and live it. They will absorb more that way than if you lecture them. Thirdly, it will hurt no one to drop tidbits here and there- maybe a slight correction of your father’s fallacies when he goes off on a tangent about the Third Secret or something. Share what you have learned from other sources with him in a charitable and gentle way. Discuss the whole co-redemptrix subject while you are having dinner with them sometime. Find out what they think and believe and share how you feel about it- respectfully, of course. That way you can maybe gently correct their errors or probe into their beliefs further and be the teacher. Many a child has led their parents to the Truth instead of it being the other way around!

 

[zach_dunn]

As with anything, there are always people on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Some take their veneration of Mary too far, while others do not take advantage of her help and intercession. One must be very careful with private revelations, even ones that have been approved by the Church. They are only to be a help in our path to God; they are not the path itself. Too many people get wrapped up in the spectacle of the devotion instead of the end result, namely God. You can tell when people have invested too much in a particular private revelation when they insist that other people believe and practice that devotion as well.

OP, as far as your father and siblings go, you needn’t be pushy about catechising them. First of all, keep them in your daily prayers- that your brothers and sisters will become more learned and fervant in their faith and that your father might come to understand the truths of the faith more clearly. Secondly, be a good example yourself- your siblings (however subconsciously ) look up to you. Learn as much as you can about your faith and live it. They will absorb more that way than if you lecture them. Thirdly, it will hurt no one to drop tidbits here and there- maybe a slight correction of your father’s fallacies when he goes off on a tangent about the Third Secret or something. Share what you have learned from other sources with him in a charitable and gentle way. Discuss the whole co-redemptrix subject while you are having dinner with them sometime. Find out what they think and believe and share how you feel about it- respectfully, of course. That way you can maybe gently correct their errors or probe into their beliefs further and be the teacher. Many a child has led their parents to the Truth instead of it being the other way around!

This was a thoughtful and well written post. Thank you very much wild thing. I will definitely do what you suggest here, it makes a lot of sense to me and I believe my family and I will benefit from this.