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BrianH
Guest
Some. I’ve encountered folks who believe the Spirit has led them to all Truth.
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adf417
Guest
And where is this corrected? If this is a Catholic i would answer “see CCC…” or “his bishop”. But where is this corrected in protestantism?
Peace!!!
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Peter_J
Guest
Shocking!
Heh.
But seriously, when the Lord said “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.” he was speaking to us collectively, no? Otherwise I could say “Protestants are guided by the Devil” and you’d have to conclude that the Spirit led me to say that.
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Kliska
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I guess I’m confused; are you saying protestants don’t change their mind? I can assure you I’ve met plenty who have, and I have as well on various things.
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Kliska
Guest
It usually wouldn’t be in the same sense that Catholics would use the word, however.
I’ve gone 'round this bend before on the forum, I’ll just say I don’t think that applies to the OP’s question, and leave it at that.
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ltwin
Guest
We believe that men, even those who lead the church, can and have erred. While I’m sure it’s convenient for Catholics to think Protestants must believe themselves infallible since they deny that the Catholic Church is infallible, it’s not true.
Protestants believe that the Holy Scriptures are inerrant, and the Holy Spirit is infallible. Individual Christians, while fallible, can rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit and a conscience shaped by the truth of Holy Scripture and practices of biblical interpretation based on reason to discern God’s will as revealed in biblical texts.
The conclusions we reach about biblical texts are not infallible. They are fallible judgments that can change given new information or insight or experience. Sometimes this is part of maturing in one’s faith. Old prejudices fall away as one comes to understand deeper truths of the Gospel and develops deeper communion with Christ.
The certainty of our faith is not that anyone person’s interpretation of Scripture is perfect and we need only agree with that person. Our faith is in Christ and the divinely inspired word of God.
Assurance of salvation does not imply infallibility either. It is quite possible to believe that one knows for certain they are justified by faith and forgiven of their sins while also believing they can err on matters of doctrine and teaching.
For example, I do believe that truly born again Christians can have an assurance of salvation. I have an assurance of my own salvation. (I also believe that salvation can be forfeited, but that’s for another thread). Yet, I would never claim nor do I personally believe that I am 100 percent right on every matter of Christian doctrine, theology or practice. I could be and probably am wrong on a number of issues. I believe I’m correct, but I could be wrong on the Pentecostal doctrine of baptism in the Holy Spirit and initial evidence. I could be wrong about my interpretation of Paul’s rules concerning tongues speaking and prophesying in the church laid out in 1 Corinthians 14. Etc. Etc.
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Dpoc41
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adf417
Guest
I did not mean to imply that but please point to a preaching, sermon, or creed that states something to the effect of - “…and be aware that some of these beliefs we teach could be wrong, we are just not absolutely sure”.
Peace!!!
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Kliska
Guest
I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be something like that in a creed, that would kinda defeat the purpose of a creed.
However, I have witnessed several preachers in several sermons make changes if they feel they’ve erred, and point out those errors. It’s also common in Protestant circles to underscore the need to search scripture to test what someone is teaching; meaning, the preacher tells the congregation to double check his teaching with scripture.
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Wannano
Guest
Very good point Kliska, perhaps that is one reason we bring Bibles to church, often the minister asks everyone to turn to a specific passage. For a moment, you can hear the pages rustle. By turning to the passage, one can mark the spot for future reference. Often the minister will invite feedback during the coming week if anyone has a question or wants elaboration on the message. There have been times when the next Sunday the minister will mention that someone pointed out something interesting in relation to his message that he had not thought of or that draws a parallel in another passage that is worth sharing!
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ltwin
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Good point Kliska. I have heard often pastors reminding their congregations not to believe their teaching just because they’re speaking from a pulpit but to search the Scriptures for themselves. In effect, God will hold the preacher accountable for what he preaches, but the people themselves are still responsible for verifying the scriptural truth of any teacher’s claims.I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be something like that in a creed, that would kinda defeat the purpose of a creed.
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exnihilo
Guest
You should always obey your conscience. This is affirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas. You do have a duty to inform your conscience. But if you really and truly believe something to be right you should do it. Likewise if you really and truly believe something to be wrong you shouldn’t do it. Only the individual and God truly know what his conscience is telling him.
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Peter_J
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adf417
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Kliska
Guest
Thanks for that.
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mackbrislawn
Guest
That’s something I’ve always wondered about, why have a preacher when you can and should read and study scripture for yourself? The preacher is superfluous.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I wouldn’t say superfluous because there’s a good chance he’s been to seminary and is at least somewhat familar with Koine Greek, etc. So he’s more learned than all or most of the congregation overall in the field.
However no real tangible authority exists in most cases. Come to a scriptural standoff and there’s a decent chance it doesn’t get resolved. So you end up agreeing on “essentials” (deity of Christ, Trinity etc)and disagreeing on " non essentials". (Infant baptism, eschatology, etc)
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Kliska
Guest
Catholics can and should read and study scripture for yourselves as well, as both the modern CC and the ECF’s testify to.
But seriously, similar to the Catholic idea of a magisterium and the guidance of the Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit, most protestants believe that certain pastors, preachers, teachers, apologists, etc… can be truly gifted by God in those areas. One of the ways to “test all things and hold to that which is true/good” is to hold up a teaching to the light of scripture and pray and seek the Spirit’s guidance. Also as Lenten Ashes has stated, many pastors have been to seminary, and can also read and speak Hebrew and Greek.
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punisherthunder
Guest
Not only do they believe they are infallible, but they are overbearing about it. I got into a semi-heated argument with a non denmon co-worker.
She was practically screaming that nothing they do is wrong and are 100% right, etc. I finally had to step up to her and command her to stop, and that we agreed to disagree. Even then, I heard her ranting to co-workers that she was right! Unbelievable!
She was practically screaming that nothing they do is wrong and are 100% right, etc. I finally had to step up to her and command her to stop, and that we agreed to disagree. Even then, I heard her ranting to co-workers that she was right! Unbelievable!
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mackbrislawn
Guest
So this means we therefore can defer our understanding of scripture to someone who we presume is better equipped (been to seminary, smarter, more likely to be right than we are, etc). In any event, it seems most Protestants in actual practice do defer to someone, a pastor or preacher, that they find especially convincing or gifted in eloquence.Catholics can and should read and study scripture for yourselves as well, as both the modern CC and the ECF’s testify to.
However, if we seek the Spirit’s guidance, and if the Spirit then does guide us, that means we are infallible. Because that’s what infallibility means, to be guided by the Spirit.
And this model, that of testing a teaching by the light of scripture, can only apply to times and places when people possess and can read their own scriptures. This was not the case for most of Christian history, which makes one wonder.
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