Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

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Nice way to turn the tables but ultimately I asked for evidence that the fathers believed not, not insinuations, rhetoric or otherwise, neither is lack of evidence, evidence.
How many quotes do you want ? Define the time period and determine what Fathers were alive then. List them . After that, I’ll dig up some more quotes.

You started the thread, so don’t sit back and expect all here who believe what the Church teaches and always has taught, to do all the work. Especially when the trend we’ve seen these last few days if for you agnostics to ignore what is presented.

Who do you want quotes from ? Name them.
 
I suppose all those popes and churchmen throughout the centuries are heretics. They are all wrong, but no one ever took time to say so :rolleyes:
Heretics defy established dogma. Thinking that they are wrong hardly necessitates the belief that those men were heretics.
 
All I can say to this is that in his enthusiasm and love for the Blessed Mother, he went a little too far. It’s a good thing Saints are not necessarily infallible.
Read the whole quote.
St. Germanus of Constantinople (Oratio 9, PG, XCVIII, 377 ff., quoted in the same nocturn of the Office) even says: “No one is saved except by thee, O most holy; no one is delivered except through thee, O most immaculate; no one receives the gifts of God except through thee, O purest.”
You left off the part about God being the source of the gifts. When he says, “Noone is saved except by thee,” he is not calling it HER GIFT because he says it is “THE GIFTS OF GOD”

Does that help?
God Bless
 
I think the problem both I and TrueLight have (though I can only claim to speak for myself) is that the idea of Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces puts a barrier between us and christ, however you want to spin it or whatever you want to call it.

And yes I have seen many quotes but few Fathers that say Mary was the Mediatrix of all graces, therefore I cannot see any consensus on the matter. As for Blessed Cardinal Newman’s view, he is of course correct, Dogma can develop but it is always based on a seed or acorn as he called it. The idea of Mary being Mediatrix of All graces is not one that has an acorn in the consensus of the fathers, frankly it seems symptomatic of an unbalanced mariology that emphasises Mary not only at the expense of her son but also at the expense of the entire communion of saints.
 
Read the whole quote.

You left off the part about God being the source of the gifts. When he says, “Noone is saved except by thee,” he is not calling it HER GIFT because he says it is “THE GIFTS OF GOD”

Does that help?
God Bless
No, it doesn’t help and I did read the whole quote. I don’t think anyone is asking if Grace comes from Mary. The question is does it HAVE to come THROUGH Mary. I actually find the quote about no one being saved “except by thee” more disturbing than the grace question.
 
Nope, still looking for evidence that the consensus of the church fathers supports the idea that ALL graces come through Mary, and yes I am sincere in looking for this evidence.
The Church Fathers from when to when? AD 33 to AD?? 400, 500, 600? What about St. Thomas Aquinas --he’s all the way in AD 1200? What about the Doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena–she’s practically in AD 1400?

Where is the doctrine that says if the ECFs did not address a truth specifically it isn’t a truth?
 
I think the problem both I and TrueLight have (though I can only claim to speak for myself) is that the idea of Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces puts a barrier between us and christ, however you want to spin it or whatever you want to call it.

And yes I have seen many quotes but few Fathers that say Mary was the Mediatrix of all graces, therefore I cannot see any consensus on the matter. As for Blessed Cardinal Newman’s view, he is of course correct, Dogma can develop but it is always based on a seed or acorn as he called it. The idea of Mary being Mediatrix of All graces is not one that has an acorn in the consensus of the fathers, frankly it seems symptomatic of an unbalanced mariology that emphasises Mary not only at the expense of her son but also at the expense of the entire communion of saints.
Then you simply can’t grasp the information in the mountain of evidence presented.

Not understanding is no excuse to reject it.
 
Nice way to turn the tables but ultimately I asked for evidence that the fathers believed not, not insinuations, rhetoric or otherwise, neither is lack of evidence, evidence.
Um, two words.

PAPAL INFALLIBILITY.

As you’ve been reminded, the ECFs did not teach anything about ‘papal infallibility’ in so many words. . .but it is a truth of the Church whether or not THEY addressed it.

When it comes right down to it, friend, what is the source and pillar of truth? The ECFs as a body or individuals. . .or the Catholic Church?
 
The Church Fathers from when to when? AD 33 to AD?? 400, 500, 600? What about St. Thomas Aquinas --he’s all the way in AD 1200? What about the Doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena–she’s practically in AD 1400?

Where is the doctrine that says if the ECFs did not address a truth specifically it isn’t a truth?
The age of the fathers is generally accepted to run from the first century to the end of the 7th century, maybe the 8th.

Are you saying Thomas Aquinas said Mary was the mediatrix of ALL graces?

And thats just basic catholic or for that matter Orthodox theology.
 
Um, two words.

PAPAL INFALLIBILITY.

As you’ve been reminded, the ECFs did not teach anything about ‘papal infallibility’ in so many words. . .but it is a truth of the Church whether or not THEY addressed it.

When it comes right down to it, friend, what is the source and pillar of truth? The ECFs as a body or individuals. . .or the Catholic Church?
Actually theres a rather large body of evidence from the church fathers for Papal Infallibility as well as scriptural reference.
 
I think the problem both I and TrueLight have (though I can only claim to speak for myself) is that the idea of Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces puts a barrier between us and Christ, however you want to spin it or whatever you want to call it.
👍
 
Then you simply can’t grasp the information in the mountain of evidence presented.

Not understanding is no excuse to reject it.
I fail to see how this is related to the question I asked, evidence from the church fathers please?
 
Did Christ have to come to us through Mary?

God could have had Christ come to us in a bazillion ways.

God chose this way.

Does Christ ‘stop’ coming to us through Mary? Does He really? I mean, Christ and Mary are in Heaven, aren’t they? In eternity, right? Eternity isn’t in measured time, right?

Aren’t we told over and over that the sacrifice of the Mass is not the Catholics 'recrucifying Christ" but the very same original sacrifice that took place around AD 33?

Why is it so ‘surprising’ that Christ comes through Mary not just in a stable at Bethlehem but for all time?

If nobody is stupid enough to think that Mary saved us (because Christ was born through her) but that it was HIS sacrifice, why would people be stupid enough to think that God’s graces (including His Only Son) which came THROUGH her would be anything OTHER than GOD’S GRACES???
:confused:
 
Did Christ have to come to us through Mary?

God could have had Christ come to us in a bazillion ways.

God chose this way.

Does Christ ‘stop’ coming to us through Mary? Does He really? I mean, Christ and Mary are in Heaven, aren’t they? In eternity, right? Eternity isn’t in measured time, right?

Aren’t we told over and over that the sacrifice of the Mass is not the Catholics 'recrucifying Christ" but the very same original sacrifice that took place around AD 33?

Why is it so ‘surprising’ that Christ comes through Mary not just in a stable at Bethlehem but for all time?

If nobody is stupid enough to think that Mary saved us (because Christ was born through her) but that it was HIS sacrifice, why would people be stupid enough to think that God’s graces (including His Only Son) which came THROUGH her would be anything OTHER than GOD’S GRACES???
:confused:
You’re dealing with a strawman, the issue is not whether or not the graces are Gods (we all know Graces come from God) but whether there is a barrier between us and Christ, namely Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces.
 
Did Christ have to come to us through Mary?

God could have had Christ come to us in a bazillion ways.

God chose this way.

Does Christ ‘stop’ coming to us through Mary? Does He really? I mean, Christ and Mary are in Heaven, aren’t they? In eternity, right? Eternity isn’t in measured time, right?

Aren’t we told over and over that the sacrifice of the Mass is not the Catholics 'recrucifying Christ" but the very same original sacrifice that took place around AD 33?

Why is it so ‘surprising’ that Christ comes through Mary not just in a stable at Bethlehem but for all time?

If nobody is stupid enough to think that Mary saved us (because Christ was born through her) but that it was HIS sacrifice, why would people be stupid enough to think that God’s graces (including His Only Son) which came THROUGH her would be anything OTHER than GOD’S GRACES???
:confused:
I know your frustrated, but you really should refrain from calling people stupid.
 
The age of the fathers is generally accepted to run from the first century to the end of the 7th century, maybe the 8th.

Are you saying Thomas Aquinas said Mary was the mediatrix of ALL graces?

And thats just basic catholic or for that matter Orthodox theology.
I’ll repeat, “Where is the continued Catholic teaching that unless a particular doctrine or dogma was expressed by the Early Church fathers, it cannot be true?”🍿
 
😦 I’ve tried to come at this in multiple threads, with multiple different arguments, to show that this is not only true, but really not even controversial, but without apparent success.

The Church Fathers do say, and I can provide references/arguments if necessary, that Mary is co-redemptrix (‘Second Eve’), ever-Virgin, assumed into heaven, and queen of all saints and angels.

The question here is about Mediatrix of all graces, though: justtryin gives some good quotes. But the key thing, to free you from all doubt, or uncertainty, is to understand the WHAT and the WHY. So I will offer here a more philosophical approach, which I hope is at least faithful to the Fathers’ thinking, even if I do not quote them:

Are you familiar with the term theosis, or deification, and its importance in theology as the goal of Christian life? Of what heaven, truly, is? It is being with God, contemplating God, in the presence of God. If this is the Christian destination, then the saints are those that have arrived at it. And of all the saints, Mary is the most accomplished (as you will find abundant patristic witness).

Therefore, Mary beholds God in heaven more closely and more immediately than any creature, man or angel. What are the implications of this?

Well, I would argue, if we understand the concept of theosis, then, as theosis progresses, our wills become more perfectly attuned to the divine will. The ultimate goal of this, necessarily, is then that these wills become one. Disagreement with God’s will is sin, and there is no sin in heaven. If anyone has achieved this goal of sainthood, Mary has, since she is first among the saints. And if she has achieved it, then by definition, the consequence is that what God wills, Mary wills, and what God does not will, Mary does not will.

This means that anything God wishes to bestow a grace for, Mary wishes to pray for. That is what a perfect creature in heaven’s will should be, by definition. And that is all that we are saying when we say that all graces come through Mary. Because Mary wants what God wants, anything God wants, Mary wants.

Therefore, Mary’s intercession is present for all graces. All graces do not come from Mary–they come from God. But since her will is fully obedient to God’s, all graces coming from God are also graces that she desires–otherwise her adherence to God would be less than perfect, which neither the Church nor the Fathers would admit.

And, because she is in heaven, what she desires, is the same thing as what she intercedes for. Thus:
  • God dispenses graces as He wills
  • Whatever God does will, Mary wills, because she has achieved Theosis beyond any other creature
  • Therefore, Mary’s intercession to God (=her prayer, for those in heaven express desire through constant prayer), corresponds exactly to God’s chosen graces
  • Therefore, all graces come through Mary–not because she is in any way their originator, but because her will is perfectly conformed to God, therefore she by her very nature must intercede for all graces that God is disposed to grant, and must not intercede for any grace that God would not grant.
To get back to my initial frustration that this is not better understood, I am bothered by this because, given the logic above, saying that all graces do not come through Mary is like saying that, in heaven, it would be possible not to agree with everything God does. Which, for me, goes against the very definition of heaven.

To my thinking, saying that Mary is mediatrix of all graces does not place an intermediary between me and Christ–rather, saying that she is not places an insurmountable barrier between me and Christ: if Christ’s own mother cannot, in heavenly perfection, fully accord her will to God’s, what hope do I, a gentile 2000 years removed, possibly have to reconcile myself to the Father?
 
I’ll repeat, “Where is the continued Catholic teaching that unless a particular doctrine or dogma was expressed by the Early Church fathers, it cannot be true?”🍿
Am i to take this as an admission that you cannot provide any such evidence?
 
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