Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

[simple_soul]

Rambling?

Your post gave me the chills and brought tears to my eyes.

Thank you for sharing this and it has made things a lot clearer.

*Hi TrueLight,

I was reflecting on how much our Blessed Mother Mary has helped me over the years and I was reminded of my post to you and had to come by and say it really is truly amazing the way she helps a soul stay close to her Son. I was thinking specifically about how even though she could not change God’s plan for me, I never felt abandoned by her, she was always there to comfort me and strengthen me in any way she could so that I could stay on the path or come back to the path that she new I needed to be on. So in this way, even though I may have felt she could not do anything about my misery and confusion, she was actually doing everything she could to help me through it.

As always I do hope and pray this makes sense…and keeps things clearer still…*

 

[Disinherited]

This is true

No one said that Mary is the source of grace! In fact, contrary to what John Calvin dreamt up, we don’t hold Mary is the source of grace, as if they come through Her, we beleive that they pass from God THROUGH Her.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

I was discussing this on another thread started by TrueLight, many seem to subscribe to the idea that ALL graces come through Mary, and I was wondering if someone could show where the church fathers say this?

The church cannot develop new doctrines but merely more faithfully expound those found in the deposit of the faith, now as the faith of the fathers is the faith of the church if all Graces do in fact come through Mary then the consensus of the Church Fathers should support this.

It’s a theological opinion…

For your reference, here’s some detail on this from Ludwig Ott’s book “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.” Ott provides a lot of background sources, gives theological “grades of certainty”, etc. For instance, a “de fide” (the top grade) means that it’s dogma that’s required to be believed (e.g., the Trinity, Jesus’ death and resurrection, etc.).

The underlining is mine

p. 212
Mary is designated mediatrix of all graces in a double sense:

1. Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)
2. Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven, no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis).
   Here’s what these “degrees of certainty” mean:

sententia certa - (level 4 from the top)…“theologically certain…on which the teaching authority of the church has not yet finally pronounced…”

I can agree with this…since statement #1 above has adequate qualification as to what was meant (“in this way”…i.e., Mary “gave” the Redeemer to the world…so in that way she channeled the graces to the world).

sententia probabilis - (level 6 from the top)…“theological opinions of lesser grades are called probable” (#2 above).

So this is treated as “probable” (Mary’s continual intercession). I’m OK with this probability. It’s not a “de fide” which is a required belief (article of faith). I believe Mary is in heaven and I can’t imagine that she doesn’t pray for mankind.

The following relates to the possible definition of this as doctrine in the future. It seems Ott thinks nothing stands in the way of a doctrine that says she was used as a souce of grace “based” on her co-operation in the Incarnation (does he mean that since she cooperated in the past…this title merely reflects that?..perhaps). But look at the next part…her intercession in heaven now…(which many Catholics believe) is “less definitely attested”…but concedes that a definition here “does not seem impossible.” Ott backs off on any surety here.

p. 215
Definability

The doctrine of Mary’s Universal Mediation of Grace based on her co-operation in the Incarnation is so definitely manifiest in the sources of the Faith, that nothing stands in the way of a dogmatic definition. Her position as Mediatrix of Grace in virtue of her intercession in Heaven is less definitely attested. Since however it is organically associated with Mary’s Spiritual Motherhood which in turn is based on Scripture and with her intimate participation in the work of her Divine Son, its definition does not seem impossible.
　
　
So…Mary as the ongoing channel of grace…above has a theological certainty of “theological opinions of lesser grades are called probable”. And Ott says this is “less definitely attested”.
　
From this…to me anyway, it’s clear that it’s not a definite doctrine of the faith. It came about by the writings and teachings of theologians in the past, and has come into our culture…teaching, art, music, etc. But this isn’t “defined” doctrine…it’s “theological opinion”.

 

[Arizona_Samson]

I was discussing this on another thread started by TrueLight, many seem to subscribe to the idea that ALL graces come through Mary, and I was wondering if someone could show where the church fathers say this?

You will not find writings to support something none of the Early Church Fathers believed in or taught.

Marian devotion is a latter day teaching of men.

 

[Des]

If Mary is a barrier between us and Christ as mediatrix of all graces, then she was a barrier between us and Christ when she conceived and gave birth to Him as well.

If she wasn’t then, she isn’t now.

Nice reply Tantum ergo.

I got annoyed seeing the word ‘barrier’ up there to begin with. A barrier is something blocking someone or something from getting from A to B. So the phrase we often hear from protestants especially where Mother Mary is a barrier between us and Christ is creating an argument out of thin air since the idea that the Church teaches that our Blessed Mother at times prevents God’s Graces from getting to one of Her children is absolutely false.

 

[CopticChristian]

You will not find writings to support something none of the Early Church Fathers believed in or taught.

**Marian devotion is a latter day teaching of men./**QUOTE]

I do not doubt your sincerity. I do not doubt that you believe this. If you believe this and it is true, since I am part of the OHCAC and if this is true I want to know. Tell me when this devotion began as a latter day teaching of men. Tell me since you say it is so. I am open to learning something I was not aware of, take your time. Outline with historical references that I can validate that what you say is true…

 

[CHRIS_GEGERE]

JESUS IS OUR LIFE:

1 Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” -Jesus, in John 14.

SWEETNESS:

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. -Paul, in Ephesians 5:2.

AND OUR HOPE:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord… -Paul, in 1 Timothy 1.

JESUS IS THE MEDIATOR OF ALL DIVINE GRACES:

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. -Gospel of John, chapter 1.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time… -Paul, in 1 Timothy 2.

JESUS IS OUR GRACIOUS ADVOCATE:

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. - 1 John 2.

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. -Paul, in Hebrews 2.

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. -Paul, in Hebrews 4.

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. -Paul, in Hebrews 7.

In the Gospel of John, chapter 17, Jesus prays to the Father for us. 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

To HIM do we cry (?)

And behold, two blind men sitting by the road, when they heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out, saying, “Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!” -Matthew 20:30.

Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, “You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. -John 7:28.

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” -Jesus. Matthew 11:28-30.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” -Jesus. John 6:37.

To HIM do we pray (?)

“And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.” -Jesus. John 14:13-14.

“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.” -Jesus. John 16:23-28.

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. -Paul, in 1 Timothy 2.

1 John 5:10-15. John. 10 “He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God: has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have everlasting life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”