Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

[Tantum_ergo]

I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.

Yes, yes, YES! That is a good analogy. . .she isn’t a barrier but part of the Church.

And I’ll go with you on the second paragraph too. I never heard such a thing and I’d sure have to see the context. Sounds like exaggeration to me and not something that the Church requires belief of at ALL.

 

[justtryin]

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.

If someone made that claim I missed it. Christ was born from God’s Love Mercy and Will. I don’t recall anyone making the claim that Mary was the CAUSE of Christ’s birth.

I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

.

This has been quoted repeatedly between the threads…

St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, AAS 36, 1904. 453-54.

Hence that never dissociated manner of life and labors of the Mother and the Son… . there stood by the Cross of Jesus His Mother, not merely occupied in looking at the dreadful sight, but even rejoicing that ‘her only Son was being offered for the salvation of the human race; and so did she suffer, with Him, that if it had been possible, she would have much more gladly suffered herself all the torments that her Son underwent’ [St. Bonaventure I. Sent. d, 48, ad Litt. dub. 4]. Now from this common sharing of will and suffering between Christ and Mary, she ‘merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world’ [Eadmer, De Excellentia Virginis Mariae, 9] and therefore Dispensatrix of all the gifts which Jesus gained for us by His Death and by His Blood… ***But Mary as St. Bernard fittingly remarks [De Aquaeductu 4] is the ‘channel’ or, even, the neck, through which the body is joined to the head, and likewise through which the head exerts its power and strength on the body. ***‘For she is the neck of our Head, by which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Mystical Body.’ [St. Bernardine of Siena, Quadrag. De Evangelio aeterno, Sermo X, a. 3. c. 3.]

 

[jmj1984]

Yes, yes, YES! That is a good analogy. . .she isn’t a barrier but part of the Church.

And I’ll go with you on the second paragraph too. I never heard such a thing and I’d sure have to see the context. Sounds like exaggeration to me and not something that the Church requires belief of at ALL.

I believe st Louise de montfort and st Alphonsus made claims to that affect but I’ll have to look it up

 

[jmj1984]

If someone made that claim I missed it. Christ was born from God’s Love Mercy and Will. I don’t recall anyone making the claim that Mary was the CAUSE of Christ’s birth.

This has been quoted repeatedly between the threads…

Yes well sometimes people need to ponder things in their heart and I’m not entirely sure I’d claim Mary alone was the neck but rather the neck par excellence I’ll have a read into it though.

 

[simple_soul]

Yes well sometimes people need to ponder things in their heart and I’m not entirely sure I’d claim Mary alone was the neck but rather the neck par excellence I’ll have a read into it though.

*Hi jmj, I have been following this thread and was trying to remember what or how I came to understand, believe in or see the Blessed Mother Mary as the Mediatrix of all Graces.
All I can say is in my personal experience the more I want or desire to follow Jesus’ lead into a more perfect union with Himself I find that I turn to His Mother Mary to help me. It’s like I know Jesus wants to transform me into the new creation that St. Paul talks about and I am so unsure of how to let Him do this. So I find myself turning to her to help me trust Him and let Him and every time she always seems to help…I could not tell you exactly how she does it but she does and I find that my relationship with her Son deepens every time…I can only say that it must be because she has the ability to see intuitively what it is I need…she also intuitively knows her Son and knows or understands how my relationship needs to develop in Him better than I do so she can pray for things I am not even aware of that I need and she helps me to understand and work on those needs so that my relationship with her Son does deepen and I do become more united to Him. When I reflect on how much I turned to her over the years and how much she has helped me I can see how she helped me in times and in ways that I did not ask her or even know or understand what I needed to be asking but she helped me anyway…The only explanation I have ever heard that makes sense or “seems” to fit is that she is the Mediatrix off all the graces and her Son trusts her to do what she needs to do to keep me close to Himself and I am truly thankful to her and Him for it…
I do not know if this helps at all but hopefully it does…

P.S. I believe one thing she did teach me was what you “seem” to know also…ponder these things in your heart…*

 

[TrueLight]

Hi jmj, I have been following this thread and was trying to remember what or how I came to understand, believe in or see the Blessed Mother Mary as the Mediatrix of all Graces.
All I can say is in my personal experience the more I want or desire to follow Jesus’ lead into a more perfect union with Himself I find that I turn to His Mother Mary to help me. It’s like I know Jesus wants to transform me into the new creation that St. Paul talks about and I am so unsure of how to let Him do this. So I find myself turning to her to help me trust Him and let Him and every time she always seems to help…I could not tell you exactly how she does it but she does and I find that my relationship with her Son deepens every time…
Here’s a question: In what way has your relationship with Jesus deepened?

I don’t mean to put you on spot, of course, but you give such good answers.

Everyone says to deepen their relationship with Mary is to deepen their relationship with Christ.

So if all the prayers are to Mary and if people say for example, “Mary protected me from danger”, or this thing occurred through the intercession of Mary, etc., at what point does Christ enter the picture?

Is there ever contemplation and meditation on Christ?

I know you Rainbow do a lot of contemplation, but I’m addressing this last question to everyone else.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Here’s a question: In what way has your relationship with Jesus deepened?

I don’t mean to put you on spot, of course, but you give such good answers.

Everyone says to deepen their relationship with Mary is to deepen their relationship with Christ.

So if all the prayers are to Mary and if people say for example, “Mary protected me from danger”, or this thing occurred through the intercession of Mary, etc., at what point does Christ enter the picture?

Is there ever contemplation and meditation on Christ?

I know you Rainbow do a lot of contemplation, but I’m addressing this last question to everyone else.

Umm, the rosary prayers are Christocentric, not Mary-centric. All that Mary is comes from who she is --the MOTHER of Christ. How would we not be meditating on Christ when we think of the woman who is His mother? How she assented to God, how she gave birth to Him, how she pondered the words ABOUT HIM in her heart; how she cared for Him, how she followed Him, how she stood at the cross beside him, how she waited with the apostles for the Holy Spirit, and even finally according to tradition how HE came for her, raised her by HIS power to stand with Him never ever to be parted again. It’s all about HIM and how she ‘reacted’ to HIM and loved Him and praised Him and instructed us to follow Him.

I mean, I love my mother who thank God is still here. However,I lost my father more than 40 years ago when I was quite young. However, even with such a relatively ‘short’ period of time to have my father with me on earth, don’t you think that one of the things I look forward to most in Heaven is to be with him, God willing, in paradise forever and NOT be parted from him?

And if we feel that way for mere creatures, won’t we feel even MORE DEEPLY about our God who made us all? That’s what I think. . .and what I think Mary shows.

Thinking of Mary and her role in salvation only makes me think more deeply of Jesus–how gracious He was coming to us in the flesh, how patient He was, how truly HUMAN He was yet He is and remains very God–how incredibly GENEROUS He is, how great His gifts, how loving He is. . .

He gives such graces when we don’t deserve them. He gives us forgiveness over and over and never ever gives up on us. He takes ‘the poor and lowly’ and seats them on thrones as princes. He is the Alpha and Omega. Yes, I truly believe that in knowing and prayer to Mary, I am ultimately offering those prayers to Jesus, loving Him more deeply, and understanding Him more.

 

[jmj1984]

Here’s a question: In what way has your relationship with Jesus deepened?

I don’t mean to put you on spot, of course, but you give such good answers.

Everyone says to deepen their relationship with Mary is to deepen their relationship with Christ.

So if all the prayers are to Mary and if people say for example, “Mary protected me from danger”, or this thing occurred through the intercession of Mary, etc., at what point does Christ enter the picture?

Is there ever contemplation and meditation on Christ?

I know you Rainbow do a lot of contemplation, but I’m addressing this last question to everyone else.

Ultimately one has to remember that Mary is only venerated because she is the mother of God, it is because of her unique relationship to jesus Christ, to the holy spirit, indeed to the whole trinity that one venerates and prays to her so much. It is simply not possible to separate Mary from Jesus, Mary continually points to her son, indeed she does even more than that, she leads us by the hand to her sons Sacred Heart and lovingly picks us up if we trip along the way. It is not a question of Jesus entering the picture, he never leaves the picture, wherever his mother is so is he and vice-versa.
Ultimately it is a much more ‘powerful’ or ‘higher’ version of what occurs when any of the saints intercede for us, one should not make the mistake of believing that the grace is the saints or comes from them, it comes from and is God’s. However God may choose to use Mary or a saint as a ‘secondary cause’ as a way through or a reason why, he gives his grace or answers our prayer.

I do hope my humble attempt of explaining Mary as Mediatrix through the idea of Christ’s mystical body has been of some use?

 

[justtryin]

Everyone says to deepen their relationship with Mary is to deepen their relationship with Christ.

So if all the prayers are to Mary and if people say for example, “Mary protected me from danger”, or this thing occurred through the intercession of Mary, etc., at what point does Christ enter the picture?

Is there ever contemplation and meditation on Christ?

Try this it may help. Think of all we know about Mary. Now, make a list of anything we know about Her that doesn’t include God (be it Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.)

Although approved privite revelations aren’t necessary for salvation, you can use them too if you like.

Is there anything we know about Mary that doesn’t include or lead to God?

 

[TrueLight]

Ultimately one has to remember that Mary is only venerated because she is the mother of God, it is because of her unique relationship to jesus Christ, to the holy spirit, indeed to the whole trinity that one venerates and prays to her so much. It is simply not possible to separate Mary from Jesus, Mary continually points to her son, indeed she does even more than that, she leads us by the hand to her sons Sacred Heart and lovingly picks us up if we trip along the way. It is not a question of Jesus entering the picture, he never leaves the picture, wherever his mother is so is he and vice-versa.
Ultimately it is a much more ‘powerful’ or ‘higher’ version of what occurs when any of the saints intercede for us, one should not make the mistake of believing that the grace is the saints or comes from them, it comes from and is God’s. However God may choose to use Mary or a saint as a ‘secondary cause’ as a way through or a reason why, he gives his grace or answers our prayer.

I do hope my humble attempt of explaining Mary as Mediatrix through the idea of Christ’s mystical body has been of some use?

Here’s a hypothetical:

You die and go to heaven. You are very used to praying to Mary. You see her and recognize her. You rush to her and hug her. You see Jesus standing near by. You kneel and say “My Lord”. Will Jesus be to you like someone you barely know? Will you be awkward around him?

And please no answers that start with “umm” people.

 

[jmj1984]

Here’s a hypothetical:

You die and go to heaven. You are very used to praying to Mary. You see her and recognize her. You rush to her and hug her. You see Jesus standing near by. You kneel and say “My Lord”. Will Jesus be to you like someone you barely know? Will you be awkward around him?

And please no answers that start with “umm” people.

No, most definitely not. There are several reasons for this:

1)The Holy Sacrifice of Mass, if people have been preparing themselves properly to receive and offering a thanksgiving as well as assisting at Mass, they should know Christ intimately.
2)The Sacrament of Penance, if people have been availing of themselves of this sacrament frequently and preparing themselves for it, they will again know Christ intimately
3)The other four sacraments, again will allow those properly disposed to know Christ Intimately
4)Mary is ultimately a perfect mirror of Christ, she is merely a reflection of Christ and a ‘pointer’, indeed an active helper towards knowing Christ. Ultimately it is not a question of knowing Mary OR Jesus, it is question of knowing both Mary AND Jesus intimately or merely knowing jesus a little.

As I and others have said Mary in no way detracts from Christ, she can only lead to and increase our knowledge of Christ further.

 

[TrueLight]

No, most definitely not. There are several reasons for this:

1)The Holy Sacrifice of Mass, if people have been preparing themselves properly to receive and offering a thanksgiving as well as assisting at Mass, they should know Christ intimately.
2)The Sacrament of Penance, if people have been availing of themselves of this sacrament frequently and preparing themselves for it, they will again know Christ intimately
3)The other four sacraments, again will allow those properly disposed to know Christ Intimately
4)Mary is ultimately a perfect mirror of Christ, she is merely a reflection of Christ and a ‘pointer’, indeed an active helper towards knowing Christ. Ultimately it is not a question of knowing Mary OR Jesus, it is question of knowing both Mary AND Jesus intimately or merely knowing jesus a little.

As I and others have said Mary in no way detracts from Christ, she can only lead to and increase our knowledge of Christ further.

Ok.

 

[justtryin]

Here’s a hypothetical:

You die and go to heaven. You are very used to praying to Mary. You see her and recognize her. You rush to her and hug her. You see Jesus standing near by. You kneel and say “My Lord”. Will Jesus be to you like someone you barely know? Will you be awkward around him?
And please no answers that start with “umm” people.

The question is not possible. To know the Mother is to know the Son.

To Christ through Mary
Show unto us to the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jeses

 

[TrueLight]

The question is not possible. To know the Mother is to know the Son.

To Christ through Mary
Show unto us to the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jeses

Gotcha.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Here’s a hypothetical:

You die and go to heaven. You are very used to praying to Mary. You see her and recognize her. You rush to her and hug her. You see Jesus standing near by. You kneel and say “My Lord”. Will Jesus be to you like someone you barely know? Will you be awkward around him?

And please no answers that start with “umm” people.

Errrr (LOL I didn’t say um!). . .

In all seriousness, when we go to heaven we aren’t going to be limited to seeing with human eyes. Since Mary and Jesus (and all the Faithful Departed) are united as One in a mystic communion, we will not be seeing ‘one without the other’.

Besides, it’s not going to be like a big old reception line where we ‘work our way up to the Man’. I don’t think it will be possible to enter heaven without being perfectly aware of and perfectly responsive to Christ (and all in heaven).

I don’t think we’re going to be able to go to heaven and NOT do what Christ wills. . .

 

[TrueLight]

I don’t think we’re going to be able to go to heaven and NOT do what Christ wills. . .

Well I agree with that!

 

[simple_soul]

Here’s a question: In what way has your relationship with Jesus deepened?
I don’t mean to put you on spot, of course, but you give such good answers.
Everyone says to deepen their relationship with Mary is to deepen their relationship with Christ.
So if all the prayers are to Mary and if people say for example, “Mary protected me from danger”, or this thing occurred through the intercession of Mary, etc., at what point does Christ enter the picture?
Is there ever contemplation and meditation on Christ?
I know you Rainbow do a lot of contemplation, but I’m addressing this last question to everyone else.

*Well…I am not quite sure how to explain this and when you asked I believe was kind of stumped…I wonder if it is because it is something that is better experienced…but I will try to explain so please bear with me….
First I would say that it is only because of the desire to contemplate or meditate on Jesus Christ that I go to our Blessed Mother Mary for help.
I believe when I use the word deepen it is because He gets deeper inside of me and I get deeper inside of Him. It is like we become more intertwined. I believe the more intertwined we become the more Christ-like we become. The more intertwined we become the deeper our desire for Him goes and the greater our efforts become to be more like Him……even using the word intertwined does not seem to go deep enough to describe how united we become with Jesus.
A few examples of how going to His Blessed Mother Mary and how she helped would be like when I, in trying to follow God‘s plan for me in this life, was so miserable and could see no end in sight or could not see the point of everything….I would go to her to ask her why or ask her to do something about it and she always seemed to point me to her Son Crucified and would seem to tell me; “you think you have it bad…look at what He went through for you” or she would seem to say; “There is nothing I can do about it, you need to trust Him, He has a reason for everything even if you can not see or understand it.” So in getting this as a response I would then turn to Jesus and just meditate on Him and His life and just try to be more like Him. So yes she always pointed me to her Son. For me, pointing me to her Son was her way of protecting me from danger. For me in trying to live the life I believe God wanted me to live I found that keeping myself closely united to Jesus got me through some very tough times. It always seemed that whenever I lamented, complained or got down right made about things in my life she was quick to set me strait by keeping me focused on her Son. In doing this I was able to stay focused on God’s plan for me. If she had not helped in this way I do believe I would have completely drowned in my misery and confusion or abandoned God‘s plan for me all together. I believe what helped me most was asking Mary to help me be more like her. To me she always kept God front and center in her life. She never did anything unless it was for God. Every thought, word or deed was for God. He was and is her reason for everything. She never let her will take priority over God’s will. Even when she did not understand she accepted and followed His Will no matter how painful it may have been for her. So I guess I knew she was who I needed to show me how to keep Jesus front and center in my life so that I could keep God front and center in my life.

cont on next post…*

 

[simple_soul]

Continued…

I also remember when I was beginning to become aware of how much Jesus had helped me and still was helping me because of how much love He has for me…it was like I was awakening from a dream and I kept going to her asking her if this was for real. I kept asking her; “Does He really love me that much?“ She always seemed to say; Why are you asking me? Go ask Him and see for yourself.“ So I went to ask Him and He seemed to tell me He did but I had such a hard time believing in Him and trusting in Him. He seemed to be wanting me to follow His lead so that He could show me just how much He does love me and as much as I wanted to follow Him for some reason I could’t. I have always had this deep burning love and desire for Him but had always kept it hidden. I am not sure why. I guess I just believed it was between Him and me and no one else needed to know about it. I was ok with just Him knowing about it. But for some reason I do not believe I ever fully understood this love I just accepted it. When I came to CAF it seemed like He was trying to show me and help me to understand through the people I met here how much He loves me. But in order for Him to do this I had to follow His lead and open up to others about my relationship with Him. I found this so hard to do. I found myself begging His Mother Mary to help me and she did……another way I know Jesus was trying to help me understand His love for me was through receiving Him in the Eucharist. Through the Eucharist, Jesus has always come to me in a very loving, special, and all consuming and healing way. Again, I do not know why, but I have always tried to keep it hidden from people. But then for some reason Jesus seemed to start coming to me in a way that was like He was coaxing me not to keep my love or desire for Him hidden anymore. I wanted to follow Him but I found that I kept bracing myself trying to conceal how my soul just wanted to leap from my body and go to Him. I had to again beg His Mother Mary to please help me to just trust Him and surrender to Him so that I could follow His lead by letting my guard down because it was becoming almost painful to receive Him trying to conceal this. So as I went to receive Him the next time I just kept prayed to her to help me surrender to and trust in what He seemed to be trying to show me. As I received Him I found myself just surrendering my soul to Him. My soul seemed to just leap out to Him and Jesus came to me in a way I had never quite experienced before. It was like not only was He pouring Himself into me but because I was surrendering myself to Him He was consuming me as well as I was consuming Him. It was like He was pouring His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity into me like He always did but this time He seemed to let me experience how He in pouring Himself into us consumes and transforms our body, blood, and souls into Himself. The whole experience was so intimate. Just Jesus and I. I do recall Mary in that moment but it is not like she was between Jesus and I. It was more like she helped me push through all my fears and second guesses to get me there but then just stood back and seemed to hover over this very intimate moment I had with her Son, in a very mothering kind of way, and just rejoiced that I was finally there with Him. So to make a long explanation short, the dangers I believe she protected me from are anything that keeps me from being united to her Son, Jesus Christ, because she knows only He can take us into the Godhead. It is in the Godhead that we are all contained. So I believe even going through Mary to Jesus is contained in the Godhead.
I do apologize for just rambling on, this has turned into a way longer post than I had intended, but I believe this is how I see she has helped me and I do hope and pray it makes some sense or helps you in some way or another…

 

[Bluegoat]

The age of revelation is over, it ended with the death of jesus christ. We are now in the age of definition where the church defines the deposit of faith but the church cannot reveal new dogmas nor contradict existing ones.

Think what you may the faith of the fathers is the faith of the church and vice-versa, we may have deepened faith or made explicit what they believed implicitly but one will not find a single De Fide dogma that does not have the support of the consensus of the Fathers. They represent the deposit of faith, something that is not at all mentioned would by definition fall under the heading of ‘new teaching’.

It looks to me like the problem you are having is not really with Marian teachings, it is with Development of Doctrine.

 

[TimothyH]

Tantum ergo;8300155:

jmj1984;8300075:

I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.

Yes, yes, YES! That is a good analogy. . .she isn’t a barrier but part of the Church.

And I’ll go with you on the second paragraph too. I never heard such a thing and I’d sure have to see the context. Sounds like exaggeration to me and not something that the Church requires belief of at ALL.

I believe st Louise de montfort and st Alphonsus made claims to that affect but I’ll have to look it up

I just read True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin by St. Louis de Montfort. He goes as far as to argue that the Holy Spirit obeys Mary.

The saint argues that since Mary is Mediatrix of Grace through whom all grace flows, and since all grace comes to us by the working of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit must be docile and obedient to Mary.

I found this quite shocking until I read further and thought about it, and then found it quite logical and really not such a big deal. If one believes that Mary’s will to be perfectly conformed to God’s will, then Mary’s will = God’s will. Whether the Holy Spriit obeys God the Father or God the Father working through Mary, it is still God’s will. I thought to myself how much Mary must have been emptied to allow God’s will to work through her, then I read Galatians 2.

***I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me *(Galatians 2:19-20)

Isn’t this the very heart of the story of Mary? Crucified with Christ? And I do see Mary, created by God at the beginning of time, protected by God - consecrated for God’s special purpose - from the moment he discovered that Adam and Eve had sinned,

He expelled the man, stationing the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24)

Is Mary not the Tree of Life, the fruit of which is Jesus - life himself? And is the firery revolving sword not the same two-edged sword which comes from the mouth of Jesus and strikes the nations in Revelation 19?

If I’m wrong about the tree of life then so be it. I’ve been wrong enough times before that it doesn’t really bother me.

-Tim-