Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jmj1984
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thank you so much.

Yet if the Church does not hold its faithful to this doctrine, why do some in this thread and others say that the church teaches it and one should assent to church teaching?
I say that the Church teaches it, but not with the highest degree of authority. The evidence or lack thereof has been presented. You are not in violation of de fide doctrine, and so I truly wish you all the best with the hope that you wouldn’t think ill especially of all the 19th Century popes who have spoken so clearly on this matter.

In another place I think you mentioned that this isn’t the age of Mary but of Christ?

In a certain sense, it does appear that this is the time in history when God is more active in revealing the role of the Blessed Mother in Redemption History. Beginning with historical events which led to to the conversion of Mexico by our Lady of Guadalupe, to various authenticized apparitions that have more than hinted at Marian dogmas, to the promises of our Lady of Fatima that her Immaculate Heart will triumph, we are in an era that has seen progress in the teachings about Jesus’ Blessed Mother.

I was an adult convert too. 1995. I don’t even remember if this came up when I was studying. If it had, with so much to absorb, I would have been grateful for someone not burdening me with doctrines that are not even required by the Church for entrance. I don’t think that faced with all of the evidence, I would have disbelieved, but maybe I would have liked to put this on the shelf for a while.

Anyway, we have all been well-meaning I think on this thread. None of us want to alienate the other, and yet, we want to do honor to Jesus and His Mother. On your part, you don’t want to exaggerate His wonderful Mother, and on our part, we don’t want to underestimate it. Our zeal for preciously held beliefs can make us forget that persuasion is a gentle art, and in supernatural matters, only accomplished by the Holy Ghost, and thus remembering, I am backing off.

I think you will be fine if you just come into the Church, receive the Sacraments, pray for light, and sleep on this thing, for years if need be. Just die well, in a state of grace. Pray. Say a Hail Mary now and again…even a Rosary. When you give your reasons for your misgivings, it is okay with me, and the Church too…at least for now.

A Blessed Lord’s Day to you on the morrow!

Planty Pall
 
The church does not have the authority to reveal new teachings it can merely faithfully expound the deposit of faith, if something is not mentioned at all by the consenus of the church fathers it would be novel and not part of the deposit of faith.
Well I went to This Rock and found this:
While the assembled bishops at Vatican I did invoke the authority of the Fathers on the issue of papal primacy (cf. Sess. 4, ch. 4), they did not say that only those doctrines that enjoyed universal and unanimous consent of the Fathers were to be believed. In fact, Vatican I says nothing even remotely like that. It appeals to the testimony of the Fathers only briefly, after having first given a detailed elucidation from Scripture of the doctrines of papal primacy and infallibility.

It’s a matter of historical record that the Church Fathers disagreed on various issues. Some, such as Origen and Tertullian (who are not officially titled “Fathers,” although they are ranked among the major theological writers of the early Church), even lapsed into heresy. The point is not that every Father agreed with every other Father on every issue–that would constitute an absolute mathematical unanimity, something which the Catholic Church does not claim. Rather, there was a *moral *unanimity of teaching among the Fathers. This means that doctrines such as the ones listed in your question were universally held and taught by the Catholic Church. Some Fathers wrote on these issues, to greater and lesser extents. Some never mentioned certain doctrines at all (at least not in their writings which have survived), and others can be seen to have held erroneous opinions about other doctrines.

The Catholic Church never has claimed that every Church Father at all times believed and taught every single Catholic doctrine in the sense that the Church teaches it. It is the Church as a single organic entity, the Body of Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-27) that always and everywhere has faithfully guarded and proclaimed the apostolic deposit of faith–not necessarily its individual members. This is true today. The Catholic Church universally teaches, as it always has, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. But there are droves of “Catholics” who, as a result of spiritual apathy or being poorly catechized, do not believe this doctrine as taught by the Church. This in no way contradicts the truth that the Church “universally” holds this doctrine.

Purgatory, baptismal regeneration, and papal primacy *were *universally taught in the early Church, as can be demonstrated by a study of patristic writings. (For starters, consider the many quotations from the Fathers on these issues in “The Fathers Know Best” department of This Rock). The Fathers appealed not only to Scripture as their doctrinal authority, but also to the Fathers who came before them, to show the constant tradition of Catholic teaching on a given subject.

Around 150 Irenaeus appealed to the traditional teachings of the Fathers (Against Heresies 2:2-4) to show that Catholic teaching could be established from both Scripture and Tradition. Tertullian appealed to the moral unanimity of the Fathers who preceded him to show the universality of Catholic doctrine:
[Is it plausible to imagine that the Holy Spirit] neglected his office, permitting the churches [dioceses] for a time to understand differently, and to believe differently, what he himself was preaching by the apostles; is it likely that so many churches, and they so great, should have gone astray into one and the same faith? Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues [beliefs]. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. (*Praescripciones *28)
 
In a certain sense, it does appear that this is the time in history when God is more active in revealing the role of the Blessed Mother in Redemption History. Beginning with historical events which led to to the conversion of Mexico by our Lady of Guadalupe, to various authenticized apparitions that have more than hinted at Marian dogmas, to the promises of our Lady of Fatima that her Immaculate Heart will triumph, we are in an era that has seen progress in the teachings about Jesus’ Blessed Mother.
As an aside, it can be debated on what and when this Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be. However, I believe I’ve seen quotes from HH Pope Benedict saying the time of Fatima is still with us.

My personal belief is that The Fifth Marian Dogma will be proclaimed when this Triumph of The Immaculate Heart begins. Not sure what it will be or when it will be, but I believe it will be.

Sounds nuts doen’t it?
 
With respect, I don’t think you have that quite correct.

The Church cannot CHANGE a revealed truth by making a ‘new’ one. IOW, it cannot change the Trinity into the Dynamic Duo or the Fab Four. But the Church can DEEPEN understanding through the revelation of the HOLY SPIRIT.

But a revealed truth can be implicitly found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And that need NOT have been a consensus of the Church Fathers. They did not speak about every single dogma and doctrine of the Church. I truly do not think that according to the definitions of infallibility and the deposit of faith as laid out in the Catholic Encyclopedia that something ‘not mentioned by the fathers’ would fall under the heading of ‘new teaching’ by definition.
The age of revelation is over, it ended with the death of jesus christ. We are now in the age of definition where the church defines the deposit of faith but the church cannot reveal new dogmas nor contradict existing ones.

Think what you may the faith of the fathers is the faith of the church and vice-versa, we may have deepened faith or made explicit what they believed implicitly but one will not find a single De Fide dogma that does not have the support of the consensus of the Fathers. They represent the deposit of faith, something that is not at all mentioned would by definition fall under the heading of ‘new teaching’.
 
I think you will be fine if you just come into the Church, receive the Sacraments, pray for light, and sleep on this thing, for years if need be. Just die well, in a state of grace. Pray. Say a Hail Mary now and again…even a Rosary. When you give your reasons for your misgivings, it is okay with me, and the Church too…at least for now.

Planty Pall
😃

Everyone seems surprised when I say I do pray the Rosary, ha ha. Not all the time and granted, I do tend to fall asleep, but I do pray it!
 
Well I went to This Rock and found this:
While the assembled bishops at Vatican I did invoke the authority of the Fathers on the issue of papal primacy (cf. Sess. 4, ch. 4), they did not say that only those doctrines that enjoyed universal and unanimous consent of the Fathers were to be believed. In fact, Vatican I says nothing even remotely like that. It appeals to the testimony of the Fathers only briefly, after having first given a detailed elucidation from Scripture of the doctrines of papal primacy and infallibility.

It’s a matter of historical record that the Church Fathers disagreed on various issues. Some, such as Origen and Tertullian (who are not officially titled “Fathers,” although they are ranked among the major theological writers of the early Church), even lapsed into heresy. The point is not that every Father agreed with every other Father on every issue–that would constitute an absolute mathematical unanimity, something which the Catholic Church does not claim. Rather, there was a *moral *unanimity of teaching among the Fathers. This means that doctrines such as the ones listed in your question were universally held and taught by the Catholic Church. Some Fathers wrote on these issues, to greater and lesser extents. Some never mentioned certain doctrines at all (at least not in their writings which have survived), and others can be seen to have held erroneous opinions about other doctrines.

The Catholic Church never has claimed that every Church Father at all times believed and taught every single Catholic doctrine in the sense that the Church teaches it. It is the Church as a single organic entity, the Body of Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-27) that always and everywhere has faithfully guarded and proclaimed the apostolic deposit of faith–not necessarily its individual members. This is true today. The Catholic Church universally teaches, as it always has, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. But there are droves of “Catholics” who, as a result of spiritual apathy or being poorly catechized, do not believe this doctrine as taught by the Church. This in no way contradicts the truth that the Church “universally” holds this doctrine.

Purgatory, baptismal regeneration, and papal primacy *were *universally taught in the early Church, as can be demonstrated by a study of patristic writings. (For starters, consider the many quotations from the Fathers on these issues in “The Fathers Know Best” department of This Rock). The Fathers appealed not only to Scripture as their doctrinal authority, but also to the Fathers who came before them, to show the constant tradition of Catholic teaching on a given subject.

Around 150 Irenaeus appealed to the traditional teachings of the Fathers (Against Heresies 2:2-4) to show that Catholic teaching could be established from both Scripture and Tradition. Tertullian appealed to the moral unanimity of the Fathers who preceded him to show the universality of Catholic doctrine:
[Is it plausible to imagine that the Holy Spirit] neglected his office, permitting the churches [dioceses] for a time to understand differently, and to believe differently, what he himself was preaching by the apostles; is it likely that so many churches, and they so great, should have gone astray into one and the same faith? Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues [beliefs]. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. (*Praescripciones *28)
That doesn’t really deal with what I’m saying aside from the first part which is just the writers opinion based on inferences he draws from Vatican I, aside from that it merely re-states what I have said that no one church father is infallible but rather that the consensus of the fathers is infallible.
 
As an aside, it can be debated on what and when this Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be. However, I believe I’ve seen quotes from HH Pope Benedict saying the time of Fatima is still with us.

My personal belief is that The Fifth Marian Dogma will be proclaimed when this Triumph of The Immaculate Heart begins. Not sure what it will be or when it will be, but I believe it will be.

Sounds nuts doen’t it?
But isn’t it so that belief in apparitions like Fatima, not required as well?
 
With respect, I don’t think you have that quite correct.

The Church cannot CHANGE a revealed truth by making a ‘new’ one. IOW, it cannot change the Trinity into the Dynamic Duo or the Fab Four. But the Church can DEEPEN understanding through the revelation of the HOLY SPIRIT.

But a revealed truth can be implicitly found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And that need NOT have been a consensus of the Church Fathers. They did not speak about every single dogma and doctrine of the Church. I truly do not think that according to the definitions of infallibility and the deposit of faith as laid out in the Catholic Encyclopedia that something ‘not mentioned by the fathers’ would fall under the heading of ‘new teaching’ by definition.
In support of Tantum ergo’s argument, I would point to the teaching of Blessed John Paul II commonly referred to as “Theology of the Body”, much of which is entirely new teaching.

The Church has never studied the subject to the depth and breadth which Bl. John Paul II did, nor has the Holy Spirit helped the Church to see and understand some of the truth’s which Bl. John Paul II taught. The teaching contained in Theology of the Body is based on revealed truth and does not change revealed truth, but it is new teaching entirely.

Thology of the Body is a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit through a mysic-theologian-saint-pope at the exact time it was needed. Who could have invisioned the internet with 25% of american males addicted to porn? Who could have invisioned mass produced contraceptives and 50 million abortions and 50% divorce rate? Certainly not any of the Church Fathers. Nor did any of the Church fathers teach what is contained in TOB.

-Tim-
 
But isn’t it so that belief in apparitions like Fatima, not required as well?
You’re absolutely right. But I figure if all the Popes since then believe in Fatima, it can’t hurt if I do to. Even if I’m not required to.

BTW, I do hope you come to work your way through any difficulties you stumble upon during your journey through the Catholic Church.
I think all Catholics find certain aspects of the faith confusing at times. I know I do as well.
But here’s the comforting part…AT LEAST WE ARE SEEKING!!!

God Bless.
 
That doesn’t really deal with what I’m saying aside from the first part which is just the writers opinion based on inferences he draws from Vatican I, aside from that it merely re-states what I have said that no one church father is infallible but rather that the consensus of the fathers is infallible.
I still don’t think that is quite right.

Also interestingly I’ve seen that the Orthodox Church doesn’t consider the era of the Fathers over, so that would open up the time period. Also St. Bernard of Clairveux --and he DID speak about Mary being the source of all grace–is sometimes considered the “Last Church Father”.
 
In support of Tantum ergo’s argument, I would point to the teaching of Blessed John Paul II commonly referred to as “Theology of the Body”, much of which is entirely new teaching.

The Church has never studied the subject to the depth and breadth which Bl. John Paul II did, nor has the Holy Spirit helped the Church to see and understand some of the truth’s which Bl. John Paul II taught. The teaching contained in Theology of the Body is based on revealed truth and does not change revealed truth, but it is new teaching entirely.

Thology of the Body is a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit through a mysic-theologian-saint-pope at the exact time it was needed. Who could have invisioned the internet with 25% of american males addicted to porn? Who could have invisioned mass produced contraceptives and 50 million abortions and 50% divorce rate? Certainly not any of the Church Fathers. Nor did any of the Church fathers teach what is contained in TOB.

-Tim-
Theology of the body was widely criticised at the time, especially by traditionalists. I cannot claim to have any opinion on it, as I have not studied it and frankly I have no interest to either.
 
I still don’t think that is quite right.

Also interestingly I’ve seen that the Orthodox Church doesn’t consider the era of the Fathers over, so that would open up the time period. Also St. Bernard of Clairveux --and he DID speak about Mary being the source of all grace–is sometimes considered the “Last Church Father”.
Now we’re going to use the opinion of schismatics to support our arguments? And as I’ve said before and will say again its no use pointing to individual church fathers and saying ‘oh they said this’. No. The consensus of the church fathers is what is most important.
 
See, I have searched and searched under infallibility and I cannot find anything which says "the ECFs in consensus are infallible’.

I have found ecclesiastical authority (Popes, councils), the ordinary Magesterium (of which the ECFs are PART), but I cannot find a specific statement such as you gave. May I ask where you found it?
 
Now we’re going to use the opinion of schismatics to support our arguments? And as I’ve said before and will say again its no use pointing to individual church fathers and saying ‘oh they said this’. No. The consensus of the church fathers is what is most important.
Please, WHERE do you find this? Again, I have just finished the whole article on infallibility in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, and I don’t find this.
 
See, I have searched and searched under infallibility and I cannot find anything which says "the ECFs in consensus are infallible’.

I have found ecclesiastical authority (Popes, councils), the ordinary Magesterium (of which the ECFs are PART), but I cannot find a specific statement such as you gave. May I ask where you found it?
The New Catholic Encyclopedia has a very good section on the Fathers of the Church here

Amongst other things it states '**We receive only, says St. Basil, what we have been taught by the holy Fathers; and he adds that in his Church of Caesarea the faith of the holy Fathers of Nicaea has long been implanted (Ep. cxl, 2). St. Gregory Nazianzen declares that he holds fast the teaching which he heard from the holy Oracles, and was taught by the holy Fathers. These Cappadocian saints seem to be the first to appeal to a real catena of Fathers. The appeal to one or two was already common enough; but not even the learned Eusebius had thought of a long string of authorities. St. Basil, for example (De Spir. S., ii, 29), cites for the formula “with the Holy Ghost” in the doxology, the example of Irenaeus, Clement and Dionysius of Alexandria, Dionysius of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, Origen, Africanus, the preces lucerariae said at the lighting of lamps, Athenagoras, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Firmilian, Meletius.

In the fifth century this method became a stereotyped custom. St. Jerome is perhaps the first writer to try to establish his interpretation of a text by a string of exegetes (Ep. cxii, ad Aug.). Paulinus, the deacon and biographer of St. Ambrose, in the libellus he presented against the Pelagians to Pope Zosimus in 417, quotes Cyprian, Ambrose, Gregory Nazianzen, and the decrees of the late Pope Innocent. In 420 St. Augustine quotes Cyprian and Ambrose against the same heretics (C. duas Epp. Pel., iv). Julian of Eclanum quoted Chrysostom and Basil; St. Augustine replies to him in 421 (Contra Julianum, i) with Irenaeus, Cyprian, Reticius, Olympius, Hilary, Ambrose, the decrees of African councils, and above all Popes Innocent and Zosimus. In a celebrated passage he argues that these Western writers are more than sufficient, but as Julian had appealed to the East, to the East, he shall go, and the saint adds Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, Synod of Diospolis, Chrysostom.

In the second book “Contra Julianum”, St. Augustine again cites Ambrose frequently, and Cyprian, Gregory Nazianzen, Hilary, Chrysostom; in ii, 37, he recapitulates the nine names (omitting councils and popes), adding (iii, 32) Innocent and Jerome. A few years later the Semipelagians of Southern Gaul, who were led by St. Hilary of Arles, St. Vincent of Lérins, and Bl. Cassian, refuse to accept St. Augustine’s severe view of predestination because “contrarium putant patrum opinioni et ecclesiastico sensui”. Their opponent St. Prosper, who was trying to convert them to Augustinianism, complains: “Obstinationem suam vetustate defendunt” (Ep. inter Atig. ccxxv, 2), and they said that no ecclesiastical writer had ever before interpreted Romans quite as St. Augustine did — which was probably true enough. The interest of this attitude lies in the fact that it was, if not new at least more definite than any earlier appeal to antiquity. Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. But the appeal to the Fathers was never the most imposing locus theologicus, for they could not easily be assembled so as to form an absolutely conclusive test. On the other hand up to the end of the fourth century, there were practically no infallible definitions available, except condemnations of heresies, chiefly by popes.**.’
and again
'**It will be observed that many of the writers rejected in the Gelasian list lived and died in Catholic communion, but incorrectness in some part of their writings, e.g. the Semipelagian error attributed to Cassian and Faustus, the chiliasm of the conclusion of Victorinus’s commentary on the Apocalypse (St. Jerome issued an expurgated edition, the only one in print as yet), the unsoundness of the lost “Hypotyposes” of Clement, and so forth, prevented such writers from being spoken of, as Hilary was by Jerome, “inoffenso pede percurritur”. As all the more important doctrines of the Church (except that of the Canon and the inspiration of Scripture) may be proved, or at least illustrated, from Scripture, the widest office of tradition is the interpretation of Scripture, and the authority of the Fathers is here of very great importance. Nevertheless it is only then necessarily to be followed when all are of one mind: “Nemo . . . contra unanimum consensum Patrum ipsam Scripturam sacram interpretari audeat”, says the Council of Trent; and the Creed of Pius IV has similarly: “. . . nec eam unquam nisi juxta unanimum consensum Patrum accipiam et interpretabor”. The Vatican Council echoes Trent: “nemini licere . . . contra unanimum sensum Patrum ipsam Scripturam sacram interpretari.”

A consensus of the Fathers is not, of course, to be expected in very small matters: “Quae tamen antiqua sanctorum patrum consensio non in omnibus divinae legis quaestiunculis, sed solum certe praecipue in fidei regula magno nobis studio et investiganda est et sequenda” (Vincent, xxviii, 72). This is not the method, adds St. Vincent, against widespread and inveterate heresies, but rather against novelties, to be applied directly they appear. **’

I trust that answers your question
 
Alright ya’ll. I hear the rain picking up and thunder, so time to turn off the computer. Pray for us.
 
As an aside, it can be debated on what and when this Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will be. However, I believe I’ve seen quotes from HH Pope Benedict saying the time of Fatima is still with us.

My personal belief is that The Fifth Marian Dogma will be proclaimed when this Triumph of The Immaculate Heart begins. Not sure what it will be or when it will be, but I believe it will be.

Sounds nuts doen’t it?
This pretty much sums up why I believe the defining of this dogma will end the crisis in the Church and the world…
In view of the many serious crises presently facing the entire human family, including war, terrorism, moral decline, and natural disaster, we humbly request that you solemnly declare the dogma of Mary as the Spiritual Mother all peoples, specifying that she is the Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate, and thus to provide for the full actuality of her motherly roles of intercession for humanity, which we believe will effect a profound historic and continuing grace for the Church and for the world.
marianapostolate.wordpress.com/petition-for-the-papal-definition-of-mary-coredemptrix-mediatrix-and-advocate/
The Body Of Christ needs It’s Mother.
The people of the world need their Mother.
 
I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.
 
The New Catholic Encyclopedia has a very good section on the Fathers of the Church here

Amongst other things it states ‘We receive only, says St. Basil, what we have been taught by the holy Fathers; and he adds that in his Church of Caesarea the faith of the holy Fathers of Nicaea has long been implanted (Ep. cxl, 2). St. Gregory Nazianzen declares that he holds fast the teaching which he heard from the holy Oracles, and was taught by the holy Fathers. These Cappadocian saints seem to be the first to appeal to a real catena of Fathers. The appeal to one or two was already common enough; but not even the learned Eusebius had thought of a long string of authorities. **In the fifth century this method …****Their opponent St. Prosper, who was trying to convert them to Augustinianism, complains: “Obstinationem suam vetustate defendunt” (Ep. inter Atig. ccxxv, 2), and they said that no ecclesiastical writer had ever before interpreted Romans quite as St. Augustine did — which was probably true enough. The interest of this attitude lies in the fact that it was, if not new at least more definite than any earlier appeal to antiquity. **Through most of the fourth century, the controversy with the Arians had turned upon Scripture, and appeals to past authority were few. , e.g. the Semipelagian error attributed to Cassian and Faustus, the chiliasm of theof the Church (except that of the Canon and the inspiration of Scripture) may be proved, or at least illustrated, from Scripture, the widest office of tradition is the interpretation of Scripture, and the authority of the Fathers is here of very great importance. Nevertheless it is only then necessarily to be followed when all are of one mind: “Nemo . . . contra unanimum consensum Patrum ipsam Scripturam sacram interpretari audeat”, says the Council of Trent; and the Creed of Pius IV has
**A consensus of the Fathers is not, of course, to be expected in very small matters: “Quae tamen antiqua sanctorum patrum consensio non in omnibus divinae legis quaestiunculis, sed solum certe praecipue in fidei regula magno nobis studio et investiganda est et sequenda” (Vincent, xxviii, 72). This is not the method, adds St. Vincent, against widespread and inveterate heresies, but rather against novelties, to be applied directly they appear. **’

I trust that answers your question
Well, no, it doesn’t. It does not say that the consensus of the Fathers is infallible and that this is a tenet of Catholic theology as you claimed. Certainly there is authority of the Fathers but the infallibility would cover the point that the teachings are part of the Magesterium and the fact that the fathers are in consensus is not due to THEIR infallibility under consensus, but rather to the fact that the teachings of the ordinary Magesterium themselves being infallible, the Fathers’ assent in consensus is simply one of the proofs.

Further, there is nowhere an argument that a so-called ‘novelty’ must be judged 'by the fathher’s consensus.

What St. Basil says of "we receive ONLY what we have received from the Fathers’ does not mean that unless a Father spoke of a doctrine using the same words and exactly the same understanding, it can’t be true. I fear you have misinterpreted this.

I suggest that you carefully read New Advent’s article on INFALLIBILITY and then come back to me when you can show me from the article that “the Consensus of the Church Fathers is infallible” which is what you claim.

Then once again I ask you to find the Church teaching (which I repeat I do not find in the article above) which states that ‘unless a doctrine is explicitly mentioned by the Church Fathers and held in consensus by them, it cannot be a true teaching’ --and St. Vincent aside, I need to see that from the actual VATICAN, not from one saint in a ‘sentence’ taken out of the context of something which is not given.

But I think I see your problem. You are worried that, from what you have understood, that unless you ‘see’ the idea of Mary being the one through home all graces flow set out by the ECFs, it is a ‘false teaching’ because that’s the understanding you had from St. Vincent.

Now as I said, St. Bernard certainly spoke of this and less than a century after the last Church Father (though as I said he himself is sometimes spoken of as the last Father himself). So it goes pretty far back as far as the language of all graces. . .and close enough to the last of the Fathers that you’d have THOUGHT that if it was so ‘newfangled’ then there would be a CHORUS of people yelling that the Fathers never said this (they certainly were quick to roar on other things!) yet instead it has been accepted and developed and not considered a novelty. Does that help?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top