Do the Orthodox consider Catholic Sacraments Valid?

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Chaldean_Rite said:
Because its pitiful, can’t answer a simple but extremely important question.
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Important to whom…people in your church?

The question is not very important to Orthodox. Our people cannot commune with you, our bishops cannot concelebrate with yours until you fix your theology.

Please don’t feign any hurt feelings over this, you appear to have been looking to take pot shots at the Orthodox church and you are grabbing at this issue as a way of doing that.

You have to understand that this is a discipline of the church and is part of the way the church is linked together. The discipline in Holy Orthodoxy is to share and teach correct Orthodox theology, no shared communion is possible without shared Faith so the question is irrelevant. The Latin Catholic church does not share Orthodox Faith, and it has removed itself from the Orthodox communion.

When (hopefully) the bishop of Rome and those who follow him are Orthodox in Faith once again then I am sure no one will be overly concerned about the orders and sacraments. Until then, we just don’t know and don’t lose any sleep over it.
 
Hesychios said:
Important to whom…people in your church?
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Maybe you live in an area where Orthodox and Catholics do not marry, but I see it all the time, and if you start with your logic, that we are heretics, and are not sure if we have valid sacraments you run into trouble because many individuals I know recieve in both churches.
 
Hesychios said:
Important to whom…people in your church?

The question is not very important to Orthodox. Our people cannot commune with you, our bishops cannot concelebrate with yours until you fix your theology.
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In short, does the Catholic Church have Bishops and Priests whose lineage is from Peter and the Apostles (from the various Orthodox Churches perspectives)?
 
orthodox and catholic churches are too similar to be fighting
there are really very few differences i’m sorry but i had to get it out
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
Maybe your logic, that we are heretics, and are not sure if we have valid sacraments .
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Dear Chaldean Rite:

It is not Orthodox logic but perhaps your own lack of logic at work here. Read carefully what Hesychios writes. Holy Orthodoxy makes no statement about such validity of Holy Mysteries of other churches. This does not mean you do not have grace-filled sacraments only that God is the judge not Orthodox church. Also no one is mentioning such thing as heresy. Please try to understand - why does it make any difference to you - who believe your sacramental mysteries are sources of grace - whether any other church, person, government, power agrees. Your sacraments are not more grace filled nor less because of anything Orthodox church can do.
 
Volodymyr said:
why does it make any difference to you - who believe your sacramental mysteries are sources of grace - whether any other church, person, government, power agrees.
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This matters for ecumenism between the Apostolic churches. I believe its been affrmed by the Catholic Church that its obvious the Orthodox and Assyrian Church have valid sacraments - I don’t see why 1000 years after the Schism this question would still be in the air.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
Maybe you live in an area where Orthodox and Catholics do not marry, but I see it all the time, and if you start with your logic, that we are heretics,
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You keep pressing but the answer is always the same.

I gave my personal opinion earlier in the thread (post #4). I am giving you the facts not out of malice, but because it is the answer. Not distorted in any way either to comfort you, nor to hurt you. Just the answer.

I did not use the word heretic here. Besides, you and I are not important enough to be heretics.
Chaldean_Rite said:
…many individuals I know recieve in both churches.
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That is their concern, if they have the blessing of their bishops.

In the mixed marriages I am aware of, communion is not taken in both churches but I can see how it might happen.
 
Volodymyr said:
Holy Orthodoxy makes no statement about such validity of Holy Mysteries of other churches.
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If what you say is true then Orthodox posters should keep their erroneous opinions, that Catholic sacraments are graceless, to themselves. They have no authoritative basis to make such statements.
Then, we could avoid a thread such as this all together. Because it was exactly the erroneous claim from an EO poster that led the OP to start this thread.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
This matters for ecumenism between the Apostolic churches. I believe its been affrmed by the Catholic Church that its obvious the Orthodox and Assyrian Church have valid sacraments - I don’t see why 1000 years after the Schism this question would still be in the air.
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All that matters is a common Apostolic Faith.

Right now, we do not share this Faith.
 
Volodymyr said:
Dear Chaldean Rite:

It is not Orthodox logic but perhaps your own lack of logic at work here. Read carefully what Hesychios writes. Holy Orthodoxy makes no statement about such validity of Holy Mysteries of other churches. This does not mean you do not have grace-filled sacraments only that God is the judge not Orthodox church. Also no one is mentioning such thing as heresy. Please try to understand - why does it make any difference to you - who believe your sacramental mysteries are sources of grace - whether any other church, person, government, power agrees. Your sacraments are not more grace filled nor less because of anything Orthodox church can do.
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I am by no means an expert, or even a novice, in the issues dividing the west from the east. But to me, the logic runs that it should always be possible to discern the validity of a church’s sacraments. To state that it is unknown is, IMO a thinly veiled denial of validity. If Christ enabled His Church to teach all truth through the Holy Spirit, does it not follow that His Church would be able to discern when sacraments were being celebrated validly or not. If not, how can anyone know that any other one is right? Sounds like the “blind leading the blind” if you ascribe to this type of thinking.
In fact the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can (and does) discern when the divinely institued sacraments are real and valid.

So, the question about whether the Orthodox view Catholic sacraments as valid or not, is not an effort to gain acceptance or a seal of approval, it is an effort to understand if there are other theological/political differences that will probably also need to be corrected before true unity can be restored.
 
pickguard1 said:
I am by no means an expert, or even a novice, in the issues dividing the west from the east. But to me, the logic runs that it should always be possible to discern the validity of a church’s sacraments. To state that it is unknown is, IMO a thinly veiled denial of validity. If Christ enabled His Church to teach all truth through the Holy Spirit, does it not follow that His Church would be able to discern when sacraments were being celebrated validly or not. If not, how can anyone know that any other one is right? Sounds like the “blind leading the blind” if you ascribe to this type of thinking.
In fact the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can (and does) discern when the divinely institued sacraments are real and valid.

So, the question about whether the Orthodox view Catholic sacraments as valid or not, is not an effort to gain acceptance or a seal of approval, it is an effort to understand if there are other theological/political differences that will probably also need to be corrected before true unity can be restored.
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oca.org/QA.asp?ID=200&SID=3
Concerning Roman Catholic orders: Within the OCA Roman Catholic clergy generally are received into the Orthodox Church through “vesting”; that is,** they are not ordained anew**.
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indication of acknowlegement of valid priesthold
Concerning the Eucharist: Many Orthodox Christians do view the Roman Catholic Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ; others today would not subscribe to this. The answer is linked to whether one believes that Roman Catholicism is “with grace” or “devoid of grace.”
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“whether one”? This ambiguity only confuses the question because it makes it seem like person A in the EO Church can believe so and person B can beleive the opposite.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
oca.org/QA.asp?ID=200&SID=3
indication of acknowlegement of valid priesthold

“whether one”? This ambiguity only confuses the question because it makes it seem like person A in the EO Church can believe so and person B can beleive the opposite.
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Wow! You would think that the Orthodox would come to some sort of official agreement on these things. We are talking about issues that pertain to the salvation of souls right?
Wonder what prevents them from having an authoritative, unified understanding on these matters? :hmmm:
 
jam070406 said:
Wow! You would think that the Orthodox would come to some sort of official agreement on these things. We are talking about issues that pertain to the salvation of souls right?
Wonder what prevents them from having an authoritative, unified understanding on these matters? :hmmm:
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The best analysis that I’ve read was from a Catholic priest who is a convert and considered both Catholicism and Orthodoxy before converting.

His choice of Catholicism was largely driven by the fact that there is no clear way for the Orthodox to make such a determination.

See

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0810fea3.asp

God Bless
 
pickguard1 said:
…the question about whether the Orthodox view Catholic sacraments as valid or not, is not an effort to gain acceptance or a seal of approval, it is an effort to understand if there are other theological/political differences that will probably also need to be corrected before true unity can be restored.
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I have already answered that.

Yes, there theological differences that need correcting.

Every time I have seen Roman Catholics explain Apostolicae Curae to Anglicans they accept it with a certain amount of grace.

Their attitude seems to be “OK, you have a right to your opinion”. Usually, I’d say they are very mature about it.

To Orthodox, a rationalization like Apostolicae Curae is irrelevant because we are not in communion with Anglicans. The Orthodox position on Anglican Orders is the same regardless, they are outside of the church. We don’t do surveys of all the 20,000 + Christian denominations to see who’s “got it” and who doesn’t. Totally meaningless until they see the light and teach Truth.

If they taught Orthodox theology they could be in the church. They could ask to be admitted to communion and we could take a look at them.

The same goes for your church.
 
oca.org/QA.asp?ID=200&SID=3
Concerning the Eucharist: Many Orthodox Christians do view the Roman Catholic Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ; others today would not subscribe to this. The answer is linked to whether** one** believes that Roman Catholicism is “with grace” or “devoid of grace.”
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So are Hesychios are you **one **wo believes the Roman Catholicism, or any Catholic Church is “devoid of grace”?
 
Cluny said:
Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, and Seventh Day Adventists (among others) ARE Christological heretics, and hence are always received into Orthodoxy by canonical baptism.
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But in the Nicean and Apostle’s Creed, Catholics say “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” Even a convert to Catholicism, that was baptized in another “Christian” church, is not required to be baptized again, only if they had *never *been baptized (at least that’s my understanding).

So is Orthodoxy against Catholicism because of this in our creed as well, and not just the Filioque? That’s an eye opener to me. Anyone know?
 
pickguard1 said:
I am by no means an expert, But to me, the logic runs that it should always be possible to discern the validity of a church’s sacraments. To state that it is unknown is, IMO a thinly veiled denial of validity.
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This running logic I do not understand - how do you know what is “validity” - this is not term used by anyone in Orthodox church. I am not trying to deny your “valdity” I am not even sure what you are talking about. This is a kind of scholastical legalism which has been discussed many times at this site over some years. I do not even now understand it. But I do know that in Orthodox church one can reliable have holy mysteries giving grace. Perhaps it is because Catolics believe they are being quite generous to acknowledge such “validity” of Orthodox mysteries. However, this means nothing to Orthodox person. I mean no respect to Catolic church or many holy Catolic people who have helped me - but I do not care what is official position of that church regarding my church. I am surprised you do not take the same view in converse.
 
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