Do the Orthodox Even Want Reunification?

[Cecilianus]

This is the way that an insider view it, the way I view it or the way many RCs or protestants or others who came to the Orthodox Church looked at it, is, by questioning what is the true teaching of the Church and not which Church is bigger, or which teaching is the genuine one, or is the Pope is right or the other side is right etc… in another word, to think of the Pope, authority and the largest number first, then, you are RC before you become one.
But what is important, in our side, that everyone in every archdiocese knows his Bishop and knows his Church, and that is the most important thing in regard to this matter.

let me ask you this, and if you didn’t experience it, try to do so first, how many RC do not know their Bishops but they do know the Pope? is this something good or bad?

GOD bless you all †††

I dunno. It would seem pretty strange to me if a Catholic didn’t know who is bishop is - I’ve never seen that. Everyone Catholic or otherwise knows who the Pope is - he’s a public figure.

Would it be good or bad? Depends on the bishop. You seem to be pretty aware of the problems present in the Catholic Church since Vatican II. You tell me - who would YOU rather have the final say if you had to be Catholic, your local Catholic bishop or the Pope of Rome?

 

[Ignatios]

… - who would YOU rather have the final say if you had to be Catholic, your local Catholic bishop or the Pope of Rome?

The one who keep the Tradition.

 

[Cecilianus]

The one who keep the Tradition.

That would be the Pope.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

This is as good a summary of the situation as I have ever seen. The most important point is that (for all their talk of superficial differences and temporary territorial disputes) the unity of Orthodoxy is substantially impaired and they appear to have no determination to face these internal issues and resolve them. The exercise of of charity and self examination that this would require from them might put them in a situation where external unity might become a possibility.

I agree with the assessment that, looking into Orthodoxy as Catholics, we find its unity to be substantially impaired. Maybe this is not how the Orthodox people see it, but most Catholics will come to this conclusion. I guess divisions are not felt acutely as long as an Orthodox faithful sticks to his/her own brand of ethnic Orthodox Church.

When I met the Russians, I learned that there were two major fractions in the USA (not counting OCA, which is also of Russian descent), namely ROCOR and the churches under the MP (Moscow Patriarch), and that ROCOR and the MP were not in communion with each other. I am not aware of official excommunications, but ROCOR was adamant that the MP was an apostate Church, and that the faithful affiliated with ROCOR were not supposed to attend or receive communion at MP’s churches. What I found interesting with the EO Churches were these policies of breaking communion with each other, over such issues as the Calendar or apostasy, while at the same time not issuing formal excommunications. To me, it seems like the twilight zone, like Alice in Wonderland. I think the MP and especially ROCOR do consider the EP of Constantinople as a de facto heretic, over the issues of ecumenism and the Calendar, but they will stop short of officially excommunicating the EP. ROCOR has issued anathema on those who practice ecumenism, and did condemn the EP’s action whereby he lifted the anathema of 1054 against the Pope. They do regard the EP as a heretic, but stopped short of officially naming him and excommunicating him as a heretic. In the reunited Russian Orthodox Church, ROCOR has made it clear that they are going to keep their structure intact, kind of like a state within a state, and they will keep their theological and ecclesiastical positions the same. They officially decided to condemn ecumenism as strongly as before the reunion with the MP, but not to object anymore to the MP being represented in ecumenically oriented organizations such as the World Council of Churches. The reason: they understand that if the MP would withdraw, while the EP would stay in these organizations, that would result in a weakening of the clout of the MP while increasing the clout of the EP. Thus, ROCOR continues to reject ecumenism in the strongest terms, but understands and agrees that the MP should stay in those organizations not in order to work for unity, but rather to fight its arch-rival, the EP of Constantinople.

 

[prodromos]

You mentioned the Macedonian Orthodox Church, but I read from another Orthodox that there was some problem with this Church as to its recognition? I don;t know too much about it, but it would be nice to have some discussion on what is going on. Thanks.

The ‘Macedonian Orthodox’ Church is not in communion with any other Orthodox Church, as such they are not recognised by any other Orthodox Church as being Orthodox. Within the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia the MOC has been active in persecuting those who returned to communion with the Serbian Patriarchate, vandalising their churches and monasteries and having their bishop arrested for “hate crimes” (he baptised the daughter of one of his parishoners)

John

 

[Hesychios]

When I met the Russians, I learned that there were two major fractions in the USA (not counting OCA, which is also of Russian descent), namely ROCOR and the churches under the MP (Moscow Patriarch), and that ROCOR and the MP were not in communion with each other.

You seem to have a certain fascination with the ROCOR relationship.

Are you aware that ROCOR is now under the Moscow Patriarchate? They have reconciled their differences.

This is also true of the two Serbian Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Cold War is over, and the splits provoked by the communist domination of the home countries are not justifiable and have been laid to rest.

A similar split is evident in Papal Catholicism, where the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not considered “in communion” with Rome. Yet Catholics from China are readily accepted into the Latin Catholic church wherever they might find themselves around the world. It does no good to claim that they are ‘not Catholic’ because they are not technically under the Pope.

Oddly, I read here at CAF where some Catholics want to ‘demonize’ the CCPA. It is likely that the ill-informed laity around the world take a far more draconian view of the situation than the hierarchy and clergy does.

 

[sidbrown]

You seem to have a certain fascination with the ROCOR relationship.

Are you aware that ROCOR is now under the Moscow Patriarchate? They have reconciled their differences.

This is also true of the two Serbian Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Cold War is over, and the splits provoked by the communist domination of the home countries are not justifiable and have been laid to rest.

A similar split is evident in Papal Catholicism, where the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not considered “in communion” with Rome. Yet Catholics from China are readily accepted into the Latin Catholic church wherever they might find themselves around the world. It does no good to claim that they are ‘not Catholic’ because they are not technically under the Pope.

Oddly, I read here at CAF where some Catholics want to ‘demonize’ the CCPA. It is likely that the ill-informed laity around the world take a far more draconian view of the situation than the hierarchy and clergy does.

Yes, and then there is the SSPX who are not excommunicated now, but apparently, they do not accept some of the post-Vatican II novelties?
As far as he CCPA, my guess is that there is a problem with the Vatican teaching on birth control, because China has a strict one child policy in effect in many areas? here are two Churches, the underground Catholic Church and the CCPA. What other than birth control would be the difference in the teaching of the two Churches?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

You seem to have a certain fascination with the ROCOR relationship.

Are you aware that ROCOR is now under the Moscow Patriarchate? They have reconciled their differences.

This is also true of the two Serbian Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Cold War is over, and the splits provoked by the communist domination of the home countries are not justifiable and have been laid to rest.

A similar split is evident in Papal Catholicism, where the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not considered “in communion” with Rome. Yet Catholics from China are readily accepted into the Latin Catholic church wherever they might find themselves around the world. It does no good to claim that they are ‘not Catholic’ because they are not technically under the Pope.

Oddly, I read here at CAF where some Catholics want to ‘demonize’ the CCPA. It is likely that the ill-informed laity around the world take a far more draconian view of the situation than the hierarchy and clergy does.

LOL, I truly have a fascination with, not so much ROCOR, as with Russia and everything Russian. Although I grew up in Romania, an EO country, I knew very little of Orthodoxy before I got to learn about it through the Russian community in the USA. Regarding Russian Orthodoxy, I am happy that I had the opportunity to learn about St. Seraphim of Sarov, St Herman of Alaska, St Innocent of the Aleut Islands, St John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco, and the miraculous Icon of Our Lady of Kazan, among other things. I don’t think Russia will embrace Catholicism and communion with the Pope in my lifetime (unless God works a miracle), but I pray and hope against all hope anyway… I think much more has been accomplished with the Copts in Egypt, and much more is being accomplished in Syria (through the intercession of Our Lady of Soufanieh, www.soufanieh.com), and with the EP of Constantinople, towards reconciliation and reestablishment of full communion with each other.

The CCPA is an apparent split within the Catholic Church. I call it apparent because, simply put, CCPA is not part of the Catholic Church. The state of China expects the CCPA to reject the Pope. Thus, the CCPA officially rejects a fundamental tenet of Catholicism, and is not part of the Catholic Church, even though the word “Catholic” is there in the name of the CCPA. However, many lay members (a majority?) of CCPA, and even Bishops and Priests of it, SECRETLY pledge allegiance to the Pope. So, I guess, it’s understandable that those who escape to the West, are often eager to embrace everything including the role of the Pope, since they already embraced it before but only kept their true faith and willingness to submit to the Pope a secret, due to pressure and intimidation by the Communist authorities in China. There are probably other members in CCPA who truly reject the Pope, apart from any expectations they might experience from the part of the authorities. Pope John Paul II was well aware that many members of CCPA secretly embrace the full teaching of the Catholic Church, and they only stay silent regarding this out of fear from the Chinese authorities.

 

[sidbrown]

I call it apparent because, simply put, CCPA is not part of the Catholic Church.

But I think I read that Cardinal Mahony has given talks in CCPA Churches and some CCPA seminarians are in US Catholic seminaries.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

But I think I read that Cardinal Mahony has given talks in CCPA Churches and some CCPA seminarians are in US Catholic seminaries.

I’ve read someone’s recollection, who visited a Bishop of CCPA, and the Bishop led him to a back room where he had a large picture of the Pope. He could not display it openly and prominently, because then the Chinese authorities would clamp down on him and probably close his church. I wonder what would happen if the Chinese authorities would stop suppressing religious liberty in China. If the underground Catholics would be allowed to freely practice their religion, and if CCPA would be permitted to freely set its own policies, including the freedom to submit to the Pope as head of the Church. I wonder how many Bishops, Priests, and laity of CCPA would freely choose to stay in schism with the Pope. I hope not many!

 

[sidbrown]

With reference to the original question as to whether or not the Orthodox want reunification, there have been some positive signs recently. The new Serbian Patriarch has proposed a Summit with the Pope with the desire of establishing one Church of Christ.
fatima.org/news/newsviews/efnews020510.asp

blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/01/29/serbian-church-leader-breaks-with-past-invites-pope-to-belgrade/

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Thinking of how secular powers (such as in China) want to practice cesaro-papism, using the Church as an extension of their power, it’s obvious that they don’t want the Church to be independent and have a “boss” like the Pope who is outside of their country, and whom they can’t control. I guess if China wants the Chinese Churches to accept birth control and abortion in service of the “one child policy”, they will simply order those Churches to fall in line, and depose and jail any Bishops (Patriarchs?) who resist the orders of the state. This is classic cesaro-papism. Of course China doesn’t want CCPA to be under the final authority of a Pope in Rome, because they can’t order the Pope to obey them, and they can’t depose and jail the Pope if he refuses to obey.

My thoughts wonder back to Russia. I’ve read on a Russian Catholic website posted in another thread, that Metropolitan Isidore, who was the head of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time, attended the Council of Florence and accepted union with the Pope in the 15th century. However, as soon as he arrived back to Russia, the Tsar deposed him, put him in jail, and named someone else as the new head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Some time later the former Metropolitan Isidore escaped to the West, where he spent the rest of his life in communion with the Pope, which he believed in and never renounced after accepting it at Florence. What the Tsar did in Russia, by deposing Metropolitan Isidore, and forcing the Russian Orthodox Church to stay in schism with the Pope, is another example of cesaro-papism at work.

 

[Ignatios]

That would be the Pope.

If the Pope keeping the Tradition then it is the Pope, and if the Local Bishop Keeping the Tradition then it is the Local Bishop and not the Pope.
It is true that one of the Bishops Job is to keep the Tradition, BUT in essence it is the Tradition that keeps them.

 

[Diak]

Within the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia the MOC has been active in persecuting those who returned to communion with the Serbian Patriarchate, vandalising their churches and monasteries and having their bishop arrested for “hate crimes” (he baptised the daughter of one of his parishoners)

That’s equally as facile as saying the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox (KP or UAOC) have been active in persecuting the MP for attempting to get their parishes back from generations of forced taking of those churches. The Macedonian Church, much like the Bulgarian Church preceding them in autocephaly and others, has struggled for generations to be autocephalous and free of both Serbia and Greece, with ample atrocities committed by both against the Macedonians. The Bulgarian Church was declared “without grace” for a century by most of Orthodoxy.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ignatios:

My Father’s parish (St. Michael’s Antiochian Orthodox Church) converted to the Orthodox Faith in 1980. My father died as an Orthodox in 1985, and his Pastor died an Archimandrite in 2007. It was my father’s Pastor who confirmed to me that my mother had died in March, 1978. He was the one who celebrated my father’s Nuptial Liturgy when he married his 3rd wife in Dec., 1982, and then celebrated his Requiem Liturgy in June, 1985. I’m sure both would be embarrassed to read what you wrote in this post, esp. since you are their brother in the Faith…

Why should I make it easy for you since you have been giving claims in your posts, without checking their references and/or studying them, such as The Holy See of Jerusalem in regard to the Old Calendarist to mention one, you have not given any references to your claims, although I have asked for them at one occasion. besides I did give you one i.e.the first E.C and the 6th c.

Ignatios, The LINK you provided is a “Laundry LIST” of Accusations - Therefore, Cecilianus’ request is NOT unreasonable. Wouldn’t it have been easier (and more charitable) to have simply done what he wanted?

We use “Sir” when talking to our employers, teachers or other superiors or when balling people out. Which one of those are you intending here?..

Sir,
you have said that you have no hatred for Orthodox…are we ok so far on this…???
assuming we are ok on this…
So I replied that we did not need your words that you do not hate the Orthodox SINCE all you have been “doing” is trying to knock the Holy Orthodox Church down with no avail. SO IAW you say that you do not hate the Orthodox but your words shows otherwise…

Now It seems like I have to connect for you the dots every time.

I mean you should be able to pick up on things somewhat.

HUH ??? see that is why I say go and study, it became obvious that your claims lack both reality and educations.

I will help you on this one only to make a complete point about your condition of being ignorant or unknowledgeable in this particular field.
the Churches of Jerusalem, Russia and Serbia, along with the monasteries on Mt. Athos, continue to adhere to the Old Calendar.
All you have to do is google it, that simple.

I am trying so hard to discuss the argument at hand, but I think you got a serious problem of keep track of what is being discussed here.
GO, Back track yourself.

…Huh??

Ignatios, I think Cecilianus was trying to say that until the Orthodox either decide to drop disputes with each other over issues such as the Calendar, Union between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches would be a practical impossibility.

I think the recent Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus has demonstrated that isn’t necessarily the case. The Anglican Continuum has a veritable “Alphabet Soup” of churches, many of which consist of a Bishop and a few congregations at most. I know some the people who tried to bring them together - It was a hopeless project doomed to failure. The only time any of them united was AFTER talks between the TAC & the Vatican got really serious in 2005-2006…

The LINK you referenced is from a group that is like one of the Anglican splinter groups - They don’t recognize the Authority of Vatican II or of any Pope Elected since Pope Pius XI or the Orders of any Bishop or Priest Consecrated (or Ordained) under the New Rite or of any priest or Bishop who accepts the Authority of Vatican II or of any Pope after Pope Pius XI.
Most Holy Family Monastery
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Where to go for Mass or Confession Today?
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Where_to_Mass.php

I’m sure there must be similarly embarrassing splinter groups “inside” of Orthodoxy, and I’m sure you’d be LIVID if I or one of the Catholics used one of those as an Authority on Orthodoxy!..

It seems like I have to show you what was said in the previous posts, in order to make sense for you what is being said here, you just loose track of the argument.

Why is it every time we bring up the truth, you say that we are insulting you people, the truth that we are bringing forth, it is your actions, not ours and if you are insulted by it you should be directing your insulting words to your church since they are the ones who did those things not us:
" Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
“If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.” mostholyfamilymonastery.com/H.O.W._of_JP2s_hierarchy_and_members.html

…

I have, If you look back to my earlier posts you will see my answer clearly, But again you need to search and study which you seem to be lacked :
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6233752&postcount=10

GOD bless †††

Ignatios, This isn’t really an answer, because it denies what happened when the Bishop of Corinth asked POPE CLEMENT for help when St. John the Apostle was still alive and practically within walking distance!
earlychristianwritings.com/1clement.html
New Advent - Pope St. Clement I (Please note support for date as early as 70 A.D. & definitely BEFORE 96 A.D.)
newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

But what is important, in our side, that everyone in every archdiocese knows his Bishop and knows his Church, and that is the most important thing in regard to this matter.

Of course. That’s because there is no authority higher than his bishop and no Church other than his own that he’s interested in.

let me ask you this, and if you didn’t experience it, try to do so first, how many RC do not know their Bishops but they do know the Pope? is this something good or bad?

How do you define ‘good or bad?’ Morally good or bad? Theologically? Intellectually? The problem exists in two ways; too many Catholics are poorly informed about their faith and, there are a lot of protestants going to Mass on Sunday.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Less than a year later Fr. Hopko published this:

doy.org/viewpast.asp?ID=2027

Some key points:

This remark is a criticism of the mentality, not an endorsement.

Does this perspective seem to different from that expressed in the article posted by Harpazo?

DVD JS:

The ORIGINAL Article is here:
St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary - What the Orthodox have to do to have Unity
svots.edu/orthodoxunity/

Good Article - I’ve already posted it elsewhere - I think my fellow Anglican Catholics could use it, along with some of the romans who have problems with the bring 400,000+ Anglican Catholics home…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

That is the function of all the Bishops. do you deny it?

No.

 

[prodromos]

That’s equally as facile as saying the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox (KP or UAOC) have been active in persecuting the MP for attempting to get their parishes back from generations of forced taking of those churches.

I merely stated the facts.

The Macedonian Church, much like the Bulgarian Church preceding them in autocephaly and others, has struggled for generations to be autocephalous and free of both Serbia and Greece, with ample atrocities committed by both against the Macedonians.

Got anything to back up this outrageous falsehood?

The Bulgarian Church was declared “without grace” for a century by most of Orthodoxy.

Are you now saying the so called ‘Macedonians’ are actually Bulgarians?

John

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Next time provide us a good way to give you a good answer, for all the above, you have showed nothing but bigotry, IAW, it is the RC way or you are a bigots or you are a RC hater because you do not accept our ways.

Please re-read what I said. I spoke of my family and the Orthodox faithful in my town. IOW, I spoke from my experience, which includes the message from you I replied to.

If they reached an agreement and I pray and hope that they will than I will follow, so long there is no compromise of the faith set by the Holy Fathers. and I would go further even to say that the Pope of Rome deserve to be granted the Primacy of Honor over again and to be the First among equal, and to have the first seat at the E.C.s.

WIthout the authority given to Peter by Our Lord, the concept of ‘first among equals’ is meaningless. Does he get the drumstick off the Thanksgiving turkey? Does he get the plush seat? It is the Papacy, the longest continuous seat of authority in the world, which is the Lord’s guarantor of unity in His Church, schisms and heretics notwithstanding. The Catholic Church would betray the Lord if she were to surrender that authority and she would cease to be the Catholic Church. Is that what you want?

My Dear Lebanese Friend I am Lebanese my self from the Apostolic City of Beirut, I say, that, as an Orthodox we cannot change nor expand the boundary that it was set for us by the Holy Fathers of the Church, the faith is not ours to change OR compromise, and whoever does he will cut himself off from the Church, and the past is the best evidence of that, the Church of GOD will continue its coarse regardless the number of its faithful.

I completely agree. It is noteworthy that, of the five ancient Apostolic Sees, just one is in the hands of Christianity and we know which one that is.