Do the Orthodox Even Want Reunification?

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I merely stated the facts.
You didn’t state any facts.
The Macedonian Church, much like the Bulgarian Church preceding them in autocephaly and others, has struggled for generations to be autocephalous and free of both Serbia and Greece, with ample atrocities committed by both against the Macedonians.
Got anything to back up this outrageous falsehood?
Which do you want backed up (a) the length of time the Macedonians have desired autocephaly (officially since the 1912-1913 Balkan wars, unofficially since the time the Bulgarians declared autocephaly), or (b) the atrocities committed by the Greeks and other nations against the Macedonians (see Carnegie Peace Foundation reports of 1914 as well as Pandevski and other ample sourced independently collected). No falsehood here, if one looks at corroborating information from multiple sources.

I’ll assume you accept the history of the Bulgarian Church and its nearly century of being “without grace” until it was determined, that apparently she did posses “grace”.
Are you now saying the so called ‘Macedonians’ are actually Bulgarians?
It would be nonsenical to do so; I certainly did not but rather suggested similarities with the struggles of another neighboring Balkan particular Orthodox Church for autocephaly.
 
A similar split is evident in Papal Catholicism, where the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not considered “in communion” with Rome. Yet Catholics from China are readily accepted into the Latin Catholic church wherever they might find themselves around the world. It does no good to claim that they are ‘not Catholic’ because they are not technically under the Pope.
There is no split in the Catholic Church. The CCPA is a slave to the government of Communist China. I don’t claim to know much about it, but from what I’ve read, many in the CCPA would like to place themselves under the authority of the Pope, but don’t want to suffer in the underground Church, which is in communion with the Pope.

If Chinese Catholics are ‘readily accepted into the Latin Church’ it might be because that’s the Church they wish to worship in now that they are free.

I don’t know what you mean by “some Catholics want to ‘demonize’ the CCPA.” Do you mean more than it has demonized itself? If the ‘Catholics’ in the CCPA take a favorable view of their situation, could it be because they have no choice?

If you’re an insider, perhaps you can tell us why the Chinese government imprisons Catholic bishops and priests of the underground Church for years at a time and why the community is forced to worship clandestinely.
 
But I think I read that Cardinal Mahony has given talks in CCPA Churches and some CCPA seminarians are in US Catholic seminaries.
The problem there is, Mahony is not a Catholic. Don’t get me started…
 
If the Pope keeping the Tradition then it is the Pope, and if the Local Bishop Keeping the Tradition then it is the Local Bishop and not the Pope.
It is true that one of the Bishops Job is to keep the Tradition, BUT in essence it is the Tradition that keeps them.
There are plenty of cases of the local bishop not keeping the Tradition - such as the bishop who confirmed me, who came from a parish church with a “gay Christ” crucifix before some idiot put him on the list of episcopal candidates. But you cannot and will not find a single example of the Pope not “keeping the Tradition” - except for the filioque, regarding which I think it would be well to just keep to the commentary given by St. Maximos the Confessor: “They were not making the Son the cause of the Spirit, for they know one cause of son and Spirit, the Father, of the one by generation, of the other by Procession, but so as to show that he comes forth through him and in that way to establish the conjunction and the immutability of the essence." Just another, clearer way of elucidating the same doctrine that you and we have always believed.
 
I completely agree. It is noteworthy that, of the five ancient Apostolic Sees, just one is in the hands of Christianity and we know which one that is.
And note that the reason why Constantinople tried to usurp Rome’s pre-eminence was precisely for the reason that Rome was no longer within the Roman Empire, then viewed as Christendom, but rather in the hands of the barbarians. Now the tables have turned.
 
And note that the reason why Constantinople tried to usurp Rome’s pre-eminence was precisely for the reason that Rome was no longer within the Roman Empire, then viewed as Christendom, but rather in the hands of the barbarians. Now the tables have turned.
Not that I necessarily agree with his point, but even then Rome was under Christian control, just not “Roman”.

Peace and God bless!
 
The problem there is, Mahony is not a Catholic. .
I have read that there are some splinter groups, such as Holy Family Monastery which slanderously claim that Roger Cardinal Mahony is not Catholic. Are you associated with one of these non-Catholic groups not in union with our Pope Benedict? On February 15, 1980, Father Mahony was appointed Bishop of Stockton by Pope John Paul II, Then 25 years later, Cardinal Mahony was one of the cardinal electors who participated in the 2005 papal conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI.
If Cardinal Mahony is not a Catholic, as you say, why then was he qualified to serve as one of the cardinal electors of the present Pope?
 
Michael:

I see the Act of Canonical Communion between ROCOR & the MP is actually pretty recent.

Regarding the Serbian Orthodox Jurisdictions, I refer you to Podromos Do the Orthodox even want Reunification - Post #185. If your Orthodox Brother is wrong on this, please sort it out with him, and stop belaboring Joseph Varga about it. I’ve heard of no other conflicts than those two.
You seem to have a certain fascination with the ROCOR relationship.

Are you aware that ROCOR is now under the Moscow Patriarchate? They have reconciled their differences.

This is also true of the two Serbian Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Cold War is over, and the splits provoked by the communist domination of the home countries are not justifiable and have been laid to rest.

A similar split is evident in Papal Catholicism, where the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association is not considered “in communion” with Rome. Yet Catholics from China are readily accepted into the Latin Catholic church wherever they might find themselves around the world. It does no good to claim that they are ‘not Catholic’ because they are not technically under the Pope.

Oddly, I read here at CAF where some Catholics want to ‘demonize’ the CCPA. It is likely that the ill-informed laity around the world take a far more draconian view of the situation than the hierarchy and clergy does.
Regarding, “Papal Catholicism” NO ONE here would dare to refer to “Imperial (or Nationalist) Orthodoxy” - That would be an insult. So, why, my brother, do you insult the Catholics? If you want UNITY, prove it by dropping the insult. If you can’t drop the insult, we’ll know how you feel about unity.

I think what most people here are upset about is how the Communist Chinese Government persecuted the Church, imprisoning Christians and then murdering them in an effort to shut it down. and then, When that didn’t work, setting up an official “Monitored” Church which the government could tell what to do and not do, what to say and not say, all the while spying on those who came and went. What they’re upset about is that the PRC has slaughtered people in the name of atheism or “progress” and how they’ve tried to silence the one witness that had much of anything to say about it. and, Last, They’re upset because supposed Christians in countries such as America have cared more about the money they could make in the PRC, or the money they could save buying goods made by Political Prisoners (& imprisoned Christians) than they were about the imprisoned Christians & other Political Prisoners.

I would really hope you’re NOT OK any of those things either…

The Catholics who go to the “Patriotic Association” really don’t have a choice. Same for the priests & the Bishops. It’s been reported that, as soon as the PRC Government Officials leave, they move to the front of the altars, & start including (“our Pope Benedict”) in their prayers. and, They attend the “Underground Catholic Church” so they can get UNCENSORED News of the World & REAL Theology, which they take back & surreptitiously distribute at the “Patriotic Association”.

NO ONE here would deny what for many Chinese people just might be their only source for real news & information.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
I have read that there are some splinter groups, such as Holy Family Monastery which slanderously claim that Roger Cardinal Mahony is not Catholic. Are you associated with one of these non-Catholic groups not in union with our Pope Benedict? On February 15, 1980, Father Mahony was appointed Bishop of Stockton by Pope John Paul II, Then 25 years later, Cardinal Mahony was one of the cardinal electors who participated in the 2005 papal conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI.
If Cardinal Mahony is not a Catholic, as you say, why then was he qualified to serve as one of the cardinal electors of the present Pope?
Sid Brown:

I don’t think either of those two belong to the schizmatics. They’re just angry. Leave them be.

Cardinal Mahony may well be a Catholic, but he’s been a bad Bishop, and (in my opinion) a scandal to the Church. Our Lord said something about knowing a tree by it’s fruits. Well, the fruits tell the story:
“Strongly, strongly pro-choice”
*LA’s ‘Catholic’ mayor officiates at same-sex marriage ceremony
*Mayor-Elect Villaraigosa’s Inaugural Mass; A training event for protestors (A Mass was originally planned & then the plans were dropped because of the outcry)
L.A. Catholic - Students threatened with arrest at L.A. Cathedral Prayer Service for Mayor (This one REALLY got me steamed)
Cardinal Mahony’s Cathedral guards remove & threaten Pro-Life Youth during Honors for Pro-Abort Mayor
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html

Cardinal Mahony welcomes the Rainbow Sash Movement to Communion (by the RSM)
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_56__article_41.htm
Roamin’ Catholic - July/August 2005 - Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels - NO RAINBOWS (Read Article & find out why)
LifeIssues - Cardinal Mahony’s fishy fish lure
lifeissues.net/writers/kra/kra_00mahoney.html

If you understand HOW persecuted Christians in the Early Church used the fish symbol to recognize each other & to lead believers to assembly sites so they could attend the Eucharist, you’ll understand how thoroughly annoyed I am with Cardinal Mahony about this last one.

I could go on, but I would need to link everything. I’m not Mahony’s Judge, and neither am I the LA District Atty. God wants him to repent, and the DA doesn’t need my help to convict Cardinal Mahony.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
I have read that there are some splinter groups, such as Holy Family Monastery which slanderously claim that Roger Cardinal Mahony is not Catholic. Are you associated with one of these non-Catholic groups not in union with our Pope Benedict? On February 15, 1980, Father Mahony was appointed Bishop of Stockton by Pope John Paul II, Then 25 years later, Cardinal Mahony was one of the cardinal electors who participated in the 2005 papal conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI.
If Cardinal Mahony is not a Catholic, as you say, why then was he qualified to serve as one of the cardinal electors of the present Pope?
Ever heard of sarcasm?
 
Sid Brown: Cardinal Mahony may well be a Catholic, but he’s been a bad Bishop, and (in my opinion) a scandal to the Church. Our Lord said something about knowing a tree by it’s fruits. Well, the fruits tell the story:
Thank you for compiling a small portion of the many sins of the heretic Mahony. May the Lord call him to his reward before the sun sets on this day.
 
Sid Brown:

I don’t think either of those two belong to the schizmatics. They’re just angry. Leave them be.

Cardinal Mahony may well be a Catholic, but he’s been a bad Bishop, and (in my opinion) a scandal to the Church. Our Lord said something about knowing a tree by it’s fruits. Well, the fruits tell the story:
“Strongly, strongly pro-choice”
*LA’s ‘Catholic’ mayor officiates at same-sex marriage ceremony
*Mayor-Elect Villaraigosa’s Inaugural Mass; A training event for protestors (A Mass was originally planned & then the plans were dropped because of the outcry)
L.A. Catholic - Students threatened with arrest at L.A. Cathedral Prayer Service for Mayor (This one REALLY got me steamed)
Cardinal Mahony’s Cathedral guards remove & threaten Pro-Life Youth during Honors for Pro-Abort Mayor
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html

Cardinal Mahony welcomes the Rainbow Sash Movement to Communion (by the RSM)
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_56__article_41.htm
Roamin’ Catholic - July/August 2005 - Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels - NO RAINBOWS (Read Article & find out why)
LifeIssues - Cardinal Mahony’s fishy fish lure
lifeissues.net/writers/kra/kra_00mahoney.html

If you understand HOW persecuted Christians in the Early Church used the fish symbol to recognize each other & to lead believers to assembly sites so they could attend the Eucharist, you’ll understand how thoroughly annoyed I am with Cardinal Mahony about this last one.

I could go on, but I would need to link everything. I’m not Mahony’s Judge, and neither am I the LA District Atty. God wants him to repent, and the DA doesn’t need my help to convict Cardinal Mahony.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
Holy Family Monastery is sedevacantist, and they hold several views opposed to what the Catholic Church teaches.
 
Ignatios:

My Father’s parish (St. Michael’s Antiochian Orthodox Church) converted to the Orthodox Faith in 1980. My father died as an Orthodox in 1985, and his Pastor died an Archimandrite in 2007. It was my father’s Pastor who confirmed to me that my mother had died in March, 1978. He was the one who celebrated my father’s Nuptial Liturgy when he married his 3rd wife in Dec., 1982, and then celebrated his Requiem Liturgy in June, 1985.

May their memory be eternal †††.
I’m sure both would be embarrassed to read what you wrote in this post, esp. since you are their brother in the Faith…
I am sure both are NOT embarrassed with what I wrote, especially since I am their brother in the Faith, and the spirit is one, by the same spirit I tell you that BOTH embarrassed rather with what YOU wrote and what YOU follow.
Ignatios, The LINK you provided is a “Laundry LIST” of Accusations - Therefore, Cecilianus’ request is NOT unreasonable. Wouldn’t it have been easier (and more charitable) to have simply done what he wanted?
Of course it would have been easier, but that is why I did not provided the LINK then(in the heat of the moment), but in later posts I hinted to it, BUT obviously both of you did not catch on to it, I also mentioned “WHY” I did not provide the “LINK”, BUT it seems like you skip all the things that it support the Orthodox and you catch on to the things that it supports the RCs. ( nothing personal Cecilianus, in fact you seem to be a good hearted gentlemen :tiphat:)
By the way, I Like and respect the Trad.Anglicans. esp. some of their theology is much closer to the Orthodox than the RCs are.
We use “Sir” when talking to our employers, teachers or other superiors or when balling people out. Which one of those are you intending here?..

Sir,
“WE” use “SIR” when we are addressing a gentlemen and we use mam or ( Madame) when we are addressing a Lady, Cecilianus is a masculine name,< whispering> are you suggesting that I should have called him “madame” or “mam”?
Ignatios, I think Cecilianus was trying to say that until the Orthodox either decide to drop disputes with each other over issues such as the Calendar, Union between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches would be a practical impossibility.
Dear SIR,
Why not think for yourself and leave the other’s thoughts alone, I Understood what he was saying and it is not what you are suggesting. Now if you like to go into a discussion, then discuss things from your perspective and not through someone else’s.
I think the recent Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus
has demonstrated that isn’t necessarily the case. The Anglican Continuum has a veritable “Alphabet Soup” of churches, many of which consist of a Bishop and a few congregations at most. I know some the people who tried to bring them together - It was a hopeless project doomed to failure. The only time any of them united was AFTER talks between the TAC & the Vatican got really serious in 2005-2006…

The LINK you referenced is from a group that is like one of the Anglican splinter groups - They don’t recognize the Authority of Vatican II or of any Pope Elected since Pope Pius XI or the Orders of any Bishop or Priest Consecrated (or Ordained) under the New Rite or of any priest or Bishop who accepts the Authority of Vatican II or of any Pope after Pope Pius XI.
Most Holy Family Monastery
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Where to go for Mass or Confession Today?
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Where_to_Mass.php

I’m sure there must be similarly embarrassing splinter groups “inside” of Orthodoxy, and I’m sure you’d be LIVID if I or one of the Catholics used one of those as an Authority on Orthodoxy!..

Are you intimidating me into bringing up more things on the RCs, trust me there is lot more, but then that would be a horrible bashing and unnecessary cheap shots, besides I have called on both of us before to stay away from what instead of adding to our knowledge it tear down things. Listen, the Orthodox and the Catholics may have lots of issues, BUT, we cannot allow a third party to flare things up between us, we are, or at least I am aware of such attempts, shall I remind you that you are Anglican too, and it is not too smart to bring such things up, unless your intention is to flare things up between Orthodox and Catholics more than it is right now not caring about your Anglican.

continue…
 
Ignatios, This isn’t really an answer, because it denies what happened when the Bishop of Corinth asked POPE CLEMENT for help when St. John the Apostle was still alive and practically within walking distance!
earlychristianwritings.com/1clement.html
New Advent - Pope St. Clement I (Please note support for date as early as 70 A.D. & definitely BEFORE 96 A.D.)
newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
BOY, you really are a pro. in speaking through others, here you are not only speaking for me BUT, you assumed that I agree with “Corinth , Clement” Letter, as if it was authoritative, by saying that" This isn’t really an answer, because it denies what happened …" IAW, Of course it denies with what happened, according to your understanding of it that is.

Dear Sir,
( if you object the “sir” word please let me know I will change it to “mam” if you like me to)
  1. It is unquestionable that St. Clement was not Bishop of Rome when he wrote to the Corinthians. Analyzing the historical events shows that the letter to the Corinthians could only have been written in the year 69, that is to say, 24years before Clement was Bishop of Rome.
  2. That in this matter, he did not act of 'his own authority, but in the name of the Church at Rome, and from motives of charity.
  3. It was addressed from one community to another community, for we do not see it commencing from an individual who is superior,( which it would have been if it was), to an individual who is inferior, It doesn’t even mention the Pontiff or the bishop of Rome this all it says:
    " The Church of God which is at Rome, to the Church of God which is at Corinth" Indicating that both are on the same level.
  4. The reason for the Corinthian to write to Clement could be due to, that he had worked with St. Paul for the conversion of the Corinthians, and it was natural, therefore, that he should be commissioned to draw up the letter of the Church of Rome to a Church of which he had been one of the founders, We find Clement speaking to them in the name of the Apostles, and above all of St. Paul, who had begotten them to the faith.
  5. For the Corinthians not to ask St John,( besides the above reason in the fourth answer) the reason could be that St John was still in exile in Patmos, and if we were to agree that the date was around 90ad plus or minus few years, this would be the agreed date amongst the learned that St John was in exile.
  6. we have a plenty of proves that the bishop of Rome was not as the RCC claimed him to be before Clement and after Clement, some were about St John and others are from St. Ignatios of Antioch.
GOD bless you all †††
 
Of course. That’s because there is no authority higher than his bishop and no Church other than his own that he’s interested in.
That is the way the Apostles had set up the Churches to be and since we were established by the Apostles ( ANTIOCH IS the First Throne of St. Peter by the way) and not by your Pope and since we are Apostolic that is how we would be and not like your RCC asserts to be.
How do you define ‘good or bad?’ Morally good or bad? Theologically? Intellectually? The problem exists in two ways; too many Catholics are poorly informed about their faith and, there are a lot of protestants going to Mass on Sunday.
This is a problem we find on both sides of the fence, only the Orthodox that I have met, they knew who their Bishop is , where quite a few of the RCs that I met don’t know who their Bishop is, Starting from my wife (RC), to my Mother( Melkite Catholic) all the way down to some of my RC friends, but they all knew the Pope. so it is bad in the sense that knowing the Pope without knowing the Bishop, is a reflection of the reality that it exists in the RCC, i.e. that the Bishop is no more than a vicar to the Pope.in another word that you have only one bishop and that is the bishop of Rome where the Local Bishop is just the presence of the Bishop of Rome in the person of this Local Bishop (a vicar).
Thank you.
Please re-read what I said. I spoke of my family and the Orthodox faithful in my town. IOW, I spoke from my experience, which includes the message from you I replied to.
And I spoke of my experience with your own words, the way you walked in the conversation, the only thing was missing is the beat of the drums of war.
And if your approach to your family and the faithful in your town, is the same way, I see why they act as a bigots.

Every Church I went to in Lebanon there was more than half of it Maronites, and in other areas there was Melkites too.
WIthout the authority given to Peter by Our Lord, the concept of ‘first among equals’ is meaningless.
Show me where did the Lord gave the authority to St Peter to be only given to the Bishop of Rome and no one else?
Does he get the drumstick off the Thanksgiving turkey?
Maybe he likes it:shrug:
Does he get the plush seat?
I would say yes since he is 80 years old.
It is the Papacy, the longest continuous seat of authority in the world,
You got to get off your high horses. even your Pope does not go this far.
The Holy See of Rome is not the oldest it is the Holy See of Jerusalem then the Holy See of Antioch then the Holy See of Alexandria THEN the Holy See of Rome.
which is the Lord’s guarantor of unity in His Church,schisms and heretics notwithstanding.
Wrong, The Lord did not keep guarantor of unity in His Church , The LORD PRAYED for the Unity in HIS Church. to suggest such things and then to see all the schisms, you have made out of Christ a l…r. this is a blasphemy.
I hope you do rethink the above.
The Catholic Church would betray the Lord if she were to surrender that authority and she would cease to be the Catholic Church. Is that what you want?
What is it with you people and with the authority thing, is that what your RCC built on, authority, is this what the LORD came on earth for? to give the authority to the RCC because our salvation is in the authority.?
I think it is the Roman Empire who you get the authority thing from.
I completely agree. It is noteworthy that, of the five ancient Apostolic Sees, just one is in the hands of Christianity and we know which one that is.
So are you suggesting that if the Church is in a non Christian land then it is not valid?
If it is so, then your church also is not valid since the first 300years was under non Christian. and how about the many R. Catholic churches who are in a non Christian land are they valid or not?

GOD bless you all †††
 
Sid Brown:

I don’t think either of those two belong to the schizmatics. They’re just angry. Leave them be.

Cardinal Mahony may well be a Catholic, but he’s been a bad Bishop, and (in my opinion) a scandal to the Church. Our Lord said something about knowing a tree by it’s fruits. Well, the fruits tell the story:
“Strongly, strongly pro-choice”
*LA’s ‘Catholic’ mayor officiates at same-sex marriage ceremony
*Mayor-Elect Villaraigosa’s Inaugural Mass; A training event for protestors (A Mass was originally planned & then the plans were dropped because of the outcry)
L.A. Catholic - Students threatened with arrest at L.A. Cathedral Prayer Service for Mayor (This one REALLY got me steamed)
Cardinal Mahony’s Cathedral guards remove & threaten Pro-Life Youth during Honors for Pro-Abort Mayor
lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html

Cardinal Mahony welcomes the Rainbow Sash Movement to Communion (by the RSM)
cardinalrating.com/cardinal_56__article_41.htm
Roamin’ Catholic - July/August 2005 - Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels - NO RAINBOWS (Read Article & find out why)
LifeIssues - Cardinal Mahony’s fishy fish lure
lifeissues.net/writers/kra/kra_00mahoney.html

If you understand HOW persecuted Christians in the Early Church used the fish symbol to recognize each other & to lead believers to assembly sites so they could attend the Eucharist, you’ll understand how thoroughly annoyed I am with Cardinal Mahony about this last one.

I could go on, but I would need to link everything. I’m not Mahony’s Judge, and neither am I the LA District Atty. God wants him to repent, and the DA doesn’t need my help to convict Cardinal Mahony.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
Thank you.🙂 🙂

And no, I’m not a schismatic - Mahoney is a still a Prince of the Church, unworthy though he may be, and I have nothing to do with the Dimond “monastery”. I’ve never attended either an Orthodox or an SSPX liturgy, though I’ve tempted to strongly at times and had abundant opportunity, and I am quite angry - I go to no small mental effort to become Catholic and then realize outside my own parish the Bride of Christ is in ruins, in almost as bad a state as mainstream Protestantism - and I have to put up with insults from fellow Catholics (including priests) for believing and practicing what I understand to be the Catholic faith.

(One priest called me a Protestant for going to the Tridentine Mass.🤷)
 
  1. It was addressed from one community to another community, for we do not see it commencing from an individual who is superior,( which it would have been if it was), to an individual who is inferior, It doesn’t even mention the Pontiff or the bishop of Rome this all it says:
    " The Church of God which is at Rome, to the Church of God which is at Corinth" Indicating that both are on the same level.
Please note however, Ignatios, that the Roman Catholic Church today still views the Roman church as sister churches to all the others, and in this sense they are on the same level. The Pope today still addresses the episcopate as his “brother bishops”.
 
Please note however, Ignatios, that the Roman Catholic Church today still views the Roman church as sister churches to all the others, and in this sense they are on the same level. The Pope today still addresses the episcopate as his “brother bishops”.
True however, the " The Church of God which is at Rome, to the Church of God which is at Corinth" it does denotes to an equality and it was written from Church to another Church, so there is nothing that it shows that the Epistle was an authoritative if any, due to a Papal position.
 
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