Do the Orthodox Even Want Reunification?

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…and who else but Rome had universal jurisdiction (rule over the brethren like Peter was given by Christ) as witnessed through the history of the Church?
Edit: The Pope was given privileges and prerogatives of which I spoke of that were unique to it’s see (as attested by the fathers, councils, scripture and history).
Let us look at the History then:
Okay, I believ we went through enough fathers, posting more fathers doesn’t affirm it more than it already did, so let us look at the councils:
1st E. Council was summoned by the Emperor without any consultation with the Pope.
2nd E.C. without the knowledge or presence of any Western Bishops.
4th E.C. It was held on the contrary to expressed desire of Pope Leo I in the case of Chalcedon, when he only gave a reluctant consent after the Emperor Marcian had already convoked the synod.
5th E.C. Pope Vigilius was against it, he was censored but not named, Pope Vigilius boycott the Council, only to come back later on and ask the Patriarch of Constantinople to bring him back to the unity of the catholic Church
(Hefele, History of the Councils, Vol. IV., p. 289.)
In accordance with the imperial command, but without the assent of the Pope, …Among those present were the Patriarchs, Eutychius of Constantinople, who presided, Apollinaris of Alexandria, Domninus of Antioch, three bishops as representatives of the Patriarch Eustochius of Jerusalem, and 145 other metropolitans and bishops, of whom many came also in the place of absent colleagues.
…And again here where Vigilius asked the Patriarch of Constantinople to bring him to the unity of the catholic Church:
Historical Note.
(Fleury. Hist. Eccl., Liv. xxxiii. 52.)
At last the Pope Vigilius resigned himself to the advice of the Council, and six months afterwards wrote a letter to the Patriarch Eutychius, wherein he confesses that he has been wanting in charity in dividing from his brethren. He adds, that one ought not to be ashamed to retract, when one recognises the truth, and brings forward the example of Augustine. He says, that, after having better examined the matter of the Three Chapters, he finds them worthy of condemnation. “We recognize for our brethren and colleagues all those who have condemned them, and annul by this writing all that has been done by us or by others for the defence of the three chapters.”
Now as for the Scriptures, this you have to show me where The Lord Jesus Christ had said to St Peter to give the power and the headship only to the Pope?

And as for the History,… I mean 2000 years If I was to say 5 words for every year that would that would be 10000 words, this would be a novel, so I will a few things from the history :
Pope Victor and the Churches of Asia (A.D. 190):
“Thereupon Victor, head of the Roman Church attempted at one stroke to cut off from the common unity all the Asian diocese, together with the neighboring churches, on the ground of heterodoxy.” [3]
Note here it states that Victor attempted. He failed because “…this was not to the taste of all the bishops: they replied with a request that he would turn his mind to the things that make for peace and unity and love towards his neighbours. We still possess the words of these men who very sternly rebuked Victor. Among them was Irenaeus, who wrote on behalf of the Christians for whom he was
responsible for in Gaul.” ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
In another word the Greeks told the Pope in plain Greek to mind his own business.
Now off to Pope Stephen I with Cyprian:
The Synod Held at Carthage Over Which Presided the Great and Holy Martyr Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage.a.d. 257.
For no one [of us ] has set himself up [to be] bishop [of bishops ], or attempted with tyrannical dread to force his colleagues to obedience to him, since every bishop has, for the license of liberty and power, his own will, and as he cannot be judged by another, so neither can he judge another. But we await the judgment of our universal Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, who one and alone hath the power, both of advancing us in the governance of his Church, and of judging of our actions [in that position].
It doesn’t seems like Cyprian liked the Pope to interfere in his own jurisdiction either.
But was that only the idea of the African Churches, let us look, what is there:

continue…
 
Firmilian, Bishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia, to Cyprian, Against the Letter of Stephen. a.d. 256. Epistle LXXIV.
6. But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles… And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make…
…And again Firmilian in the same letter to Cyprian about Pope StephenI
…. For what strifes and dissensions have you stirred up throughout the churches of the whole world! Moreover, how great sin have you heaped up for yourself, when you cut yourself off from so many flocks! For it is yourself that you have cut off. Do not deceive yourself, since he is really the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity…
25. How carefully has Stephen fulfilled these salutary commands and warnings of the apostle, keeping in the first place lowliness of mind and meekness! For what is more lowly or meek than to have disagreed with so many bishops throughout the whole world, breaking peace with each one of them in various kinds of discord:29602960 [By Canon XIX. of Nicæa the Paulianists were compelled to observe the Carthaginian discipline, which was a Catholic decision, so far, in Cyprian’s favour. His position was not condemned.] at one time with the eastern churches, as we are sure you know; at another time with you who are in the south, from whom he received bishops as messengers sufficiently patiently and meekly not to receive them even to the speech of an ordinary conference
…And now to the Meletian schism (361 a.d.):
In the Meletian schism Rome wanted Paulinus as bishop in Antioch and St. Basil favored St. Meletius. The Paulinians had a letter from the west calling on Antioch to put Paulinus in as bishop. St. Basil wrote a letter to Count Terentius rejecting any authority to the letter and putting his full weight behind St. Meletius.
“I hear, moreover, that the Paulinians are carrying about a letter of the Westerns, assigning to them the episcopate of the Church in Antioch, but speaking under a false impression of Meletius,… . I shall never consent to give in, merely because somebody is very much elated at receiving a letter from men. Even if it had come down from heaven itself, but he does not agree with the sound doctrine of the faith, I cannot look upon him as in communion with the saints”. (Italics from Popes and Patriarchs) (Letter 214)
St Basil and the Western Bishops:
  1. In fighting the Arian heresy there is no evidence that St. Basil ever turned to Rome to settle the dispute. In fact, he turned to St. Athanasius bishop of Alexandria.
  2. When St. Basil did turn to the west for help he sought the general help of the western church, but never the specific help of the Roman bishop as supreme bishop. In fact, he addressed one letter to the bishops of Gaul and Italy putting Gaul first.
    “To his brethren truly God-beloved and very dear, and fellow ministers of like mind, the bishops of Gaul and Italy, Basil, bishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia”. (Letter 243)
  3. St. Basil wrote letters showing that he had no respect for Pope Damasus when it came to ecclesiastical affairs.
    “Really lofty souls, when they are courted, get haughtier than ever. If the Lord be propitious to us, what other thing do we need? If the anger of the Lord lasts on, what help can come to us from the frown of the West? Men who do not know the truth, and do not wish to learn it, but are prejudiced by false suspicions, are doing now as they did in the case of Marcellus, when they quarreled with men who told them the truth, and by their own action strengthened the cause of heresy. Apart from the common document, I should like to have written to their Coryphæus (i.e. Pope Damasus)— nothing, indeed, about ecclesiastical affairs except gently to suggest that they know nothing of what is going on here, and will not accept the only means whereby they might learn it. I would say, generally, that they ought not to press hard on men who are crushed by trials. They must not take dignity for pride. Sin only avails to produce enmity against God”. (Letter 239)
…and then make the long story short, I will mention a few more by names only, i.e. the Acacian Schism, when Pope Felix interfere and deposed and excommunicated Acacius, and then, Acacius responded by striking Felix’ name from his diptychs, and the schism began. Acacius continued as Patriarch until his death in 489.
And then we go on to the photian schism and then to the last schism, The similarity on all of them are one and that is when the Pope stepped out of his bounds and he thought that he can excommunicate and interfere in the other Churches Jurisdictions.

Now go have a dinner and a cup of coffee 🙂

GOD bless you all †††
 
**1 Clement is written from “the church of God at Rome” and not from “[Pope] Clement.” This is important because when we look at the canonical epistles (and even those of other Apostolic Fathers), we notice “Paul,” “James,” “Peter,” “John” mentioned as the writer in very first lines. **

1 Clement is later attributed to the pen of Clement, but the name Clement nowhere appears in the actual text. Early writers noted that Clement writes in the name of the Church of Rome. Today, there are some scholars who believe that Clement was not yet bishop of Rome when the epistle was written, even as he may have penned the letter as a secretary presbyter.
Well, knowing that the former, i.e., epistle to the Corinthians was written by Pope St. Clement I without putting forth his name then it should make sense that Pope St. Clement would do the same again writing Hebrews (as that too lacks an author’s name). Moreover, who are these scholars that believe that Clement penned the letter as a secretary presbyter, because it seems that from the official/authoritative tone of the epistle, Clement is acting in a capacity far greater than “secretary presbyter,”
The tone of authority with which the letter speaks is noteworthy, especially in the later part (56, 58, etc.): “But if certain persons should be disobedient unto the words spoken by Him through us let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger; but we shall be guiltless of this sin” (59).

newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm
Also, Pope St. Clement indicates when the letter was written:
At the beginning of this text - written in Greek - Clement expressed his regret that “the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves” (1, 1) had prevented him from intervening sooner. These “calamitous events” can be identified with Domitian’s persecution: therefore, the Letter must have been written just after the Emperor’s death and at the end of the persecution, that is, immediately after the year 96.
Now, Hegesippus states that Clement’s reign started 90 A.D. and ended in 99 A.D.
The external evidence is in accord. The dates given for Clement’s episcopate by Hegesippus are apparently 90-99, and that early writer states that the schism at Corinth took place under Domitian (Eusebius, Church History III.16, for kata ton deloumenon is meaningless if it is taken to refer to Clement and not to Domitian; besides, the whole of Eusebius’s account of that emperor’s persecution, III, xvii-xx, is founded on Hegesippus).
Anyways, the point I’m trying to make is this that Rome was sought out by the Corinthian Church because she had primacy (first see), and there is something else which I forgot to mention St. John was still alive at Ephesus (so one has to wonder why, being that he was an apostle, the Corinthian Church did not seek out the primary/immediate source so to speak). Also, by dint of what St. Ignatius says of the Church in Rome, i.e., a “source of instruction” , "presiding in love (over the churches), “foremost in love”. . . .etc., one can safely say that some sort of primacy was being exercised in Rome even in his time.
 
I am not sure that I see that NFP is completely natural. You are employing man made deivices such as calendars, calculations, thermometers, charts, pencil and paper, etc., in NFP. Are not these devices all man made and not appearing in nature?
These items of which you speak are not inserted into the body for the purpose of exercising conjugal rights (and therefore deliberately stunting the unitive pro-creative act).
 
Ignatios:

You are proving yourself to be a formidable debater. But NONE of these have anything the do with the Question, However poorly and insensitively phrased that question may be…

Do you want UNITY? Do you want it so bad you can taste it? Do you want it so bad your face is on the ground before our Lord begging Him for it? Do you want it so bad you’d walk barefoot through broken glass to get it? Do you want it so bad tears stream down your face every time you talk to the Lord about it?

If you can answer “Yes” to these, you’ll understand how Our Lord feels about this thread, and worse, how our Lord feels about the fact that we don’t pray together, talk together, work together or even listen to each other in an attempt to understand the realities, the Mysteries, we both have known so we could understand each other instead of arguing with other over stuff like this. If you don’t weep over this, you have NO IDEA how much this thread, and our disunity, grieves our Lord.

Maybe, Just for Lent, we should stop these senseless arguments and try to UNDERSTAND and pray for and with each other. If we did that, the Lord just might pour down His Spirit on us, and we’d find that the world which has been so cynical because of our lack of love for each other will want to know Jesus.

Can we do that? Remember, The Roman Pagans weren’t “blown-away” by the Christians’ Liturgy or their wealth or how hard they worked or how nice they dressed. The Roman Pagans we “Blown-away” by their love for each other…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 

Maybe, Just for Lent, we should stop these senseless arguments and try to UNDERSTAND and pray for and with each other. If we did that, the Lord just might pour down His Spirit on us, and we’d find that the world which has been so cynical because of our lack of love for each other will want to know Jesus.

Can we do that? Remember, The Roman Pagans weren’t “blown-away” by the Christians’ Liturgy or their wealth or how hard they worked or how nice they dressed. The Roman Pagans we “Blown-away” by their love for each other…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
Micheal,
Thank you for those words, I was touched, by them, They really showed the sincerity that some christians have for their faith and for this unity, I must say, with your statement here you claimed that I was a “formidable debater”, My Pride is ONLY in CHRIST JESUS the one who is on the Cross, But also facing the rest of your statement above I had found myself to be feeble in front of it, for the orthodoxy of your words, therefore I will answer your orthodox request with yes for the sake of the time of lent and the sake of the orthodoxy of your words, And may the response to your orthodox question find a catholic answer.
Thank you again, Micheal and may GOD bless you and reward you for this good deed a thousand fold in return.
LORD JESUS CHRIST the SON of the Living GOD have Mercy on me a sinner †††

GOD bless you all ††††
 
I am not sure that I see that NFP is completely natural. You are employing man made deivices such as calendars, calculations, thermometers, charts, pencil and paper, etc., in NFP. Are not these devices all man made and not appearing in nature?
LOL!! That’s a joke, right?
 
These items of which you speak are not inserted into the body for the purpose of exercising conjugal rights (and therefore deliberately stunting the unitive pro-creative act).
No, but they are artificially man made, and you need them to use NFP. So can you really say that NFP is 100% natural if it requires the use of artificial man made devices to work?
 
Pope Victor and the Churches of Asia (A.D. 190):

“Thereupon Victor, head of the Roman Church attempted at one stroke to cut off from the common unity all the Asian diocese, together with the neighboring churches, on the ground of heterodoxy.” [3]

Note here it states that Victor attempted. He failed because “…this was not to the taste of all the bishops: they replied with a request that he would turn his mind to the things that make for peace and unity and love towards his neighbours. We still possess the words of these men who very sternly rebuked Victor. Among them was Irenaeus, who wrote on behalf of the Christians for whom he was
responsible for in Gaul.” ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
First, Pope Victor was correct in stating they were practicing heterodoxy, i.e., they were known as the quatrodecimans (those who celebrated Easter on a day other than Sunday):
In the period between the First and Second Ecumenical Councils there was a Local Council in Laodicea (c. 363) that decreed, by its 7th Canon: "Persons converted from heresies, that is, of the Novatians, Photinians, and Quartodecimans: . . . shall be received by way of renouncing the heresy and through chrismation."
also:
According to Eusebius, a number of synods were convened to deal with the controversy, which he regarded as all ruling in support of Easter on Sunday.
Synods and conferences of bishops were convened, and without a dissenting voice, drew up a decree of the Church, in the form of letters addressed to Christians everywhere, that never on any day other than the Lord’s Day should the mystery of the Lord’s resurrection from the dead be celebrated, and on that day alone we should observe the end of the Paschal fast.[7]
finally:
In the end, a uniform method of computing the date of Easter was not formally addressed until the First Council of Nicaea in 325
In other words Ignatios, the closing of a Paschal fast can only end on a Sunday, thus Pope St. Victor was right, even though his approach was a little heavy handed. Suffice it to say, he had the authority to excommunicate the Asian church, hence, the reason he attempted to, but was stopped by the likes of St. Irenaeus not because he was denying St. Victor’s primacy/prerogatives but because he knew that St. Victor was being too heavy handed in his approach, i.e., he was challenging his decision not his authority (moreover St. Irenaeus agreed with St. Victor about celebrating Easter only on the Lord’s day). Moreover, this is similar to St. Peter being rebuked by St. Paul in Galatians (even though St. Paul knew that Peter had a primacy, i.e., universal jurisdiction (John 21:15-19)). Anyways, let me close off with the words of St. Irenaeus:
"Since, however, it would be very tedious in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinon, assemble in unauthorized meetings; {we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that evey Church should agree with this Church [of Rome], on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
 
…And again Firmilian in the same letter to Cyprian about Pope Stephen
Ah, yes, the infamous rebaptism issue wherein both Firmilian and St. Cyprian were WRONG and St. Stephen was RIGHT (the supreme guardian of Christian tradition does it again :D). St. Cyprian was of the belief that all heretics should be rebaptized no matter how they were baptized. i.e., no exceptions even for those who were baptized in the trinitarian form with water, however this view was denounced by St. Stephen as innovation (something that was not practiced by the Church) and eventually placed with a more tolerant view which provided exceptions for those who were believed to have been baptized in a proper manner. Here is an excerpt I took from a Russian Orthdox cite:
Christianity saw no small number of heresies during the 3rd and 4th centuries, and the originators of the heresies were bishops or prominent presbyters. How to treat those who came to Orthodoxy from those heresies? By what method should they be received? There was an immediate difference of views about this problem within the Orthodox Church. Some insisted that they be received only through baptism, i.e., not to recognize their previous baptism as valid even though it was correct in form (i.e., corresponding to the baptism performed in the Orthodox Church). Others maintained a more tolerant view, accepting as valid that baptism, which was performed by some heretics, since it was performed in the name of the Holy Trinity, and did not require that those coming into Orthodoxy from heresy be re-baptized. A stricter line was taken by Tertullian (himself a Montanist), St. Cyprian of Carthage, Firmilian of Caesarea, and Elanus of Tarsus. St. Cyprian, a proponent of the strict line, convoked two councils in this matter (255-256) and insisted that heretics be received by no other way than baptism. St. Stephen, Pope of Rome (253-257) could be considered to hold a more tolerant view, and his position, according to the famous Hefele, was supported by Eastern bishops. At the same time as St. Cyprian along with a council of 71 bishops insisted that heretics lack any grace and for this reason their sacred acts are invalid, Pope St. Stephen received penitent heretics with the laying of a bishop’s hand on their heads. He did this in accord with the tolerant practice, which was held by other Western bishops. We read an ancient decree of the Council in Arles (Canon 8):
"If anyone shall come from heresy to the Church, they shall ask him to say the Creed; and if they shall perceive that he was baptized into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost [in Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto esse baptizatum] he shall have hands laid upon him only so that he may receive the Holy Ghost. But if he was not baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity, let him be baptized."[18]
Having learned about the decrees of the Council in Carthage under St. Cyprian’s chairmanship, which demanded the re-baptism of heretics coming into the Church, at first Pope St. Stephen demanded a repeal of these decrees, threatening excommunication and, since the repeals did not take place, he later excommunicated St. Cyprian.[19]
It is interesting to note that Eastern canonists treat the decisions of the Carthage councils critically. Thus, Zonaras commenting on Canon 7 of the Second Ecumenical Council, which calls for the reception of certain kinds of heretics without re-baptism, notes the decree of St. Cyprian, about which he says:
“Thus, the opinions of the Fathers gathered at the council with the great Cyprian do not refer to all heretics and all schismatics. Because the Second Ecumenical Council, as we just pointed out, makes an exception for certain heretics and grants its sanction for their reception without repeating the baptism, demanding only their anointing with the Holy Chrism provided that they renounced their own heresies and all other heresies.”
Balsamon calls the decrees of the Council at Carthage “not mandatory and as such ineffective.”[20]
The thing that you fail to see Ignatios is that St. Cyprian wrote a letter of the decisions determined in 255 A.D. expecting the Pope to ratify it, which he, of course, didn’t because St. Cyprian was denying tradition by introducing innovation:
There were a number of converts coming into the Church from heresy. Now if these were lapsed Catholics, they were absolved and given penance. But what if they were pagans who had been baptized by heretics? St. Cyprian firmly believed that they must be rebaptized and, being Cyprian, loudly proclaimed it. For, said Cyprian, outside the Church baptism is simply not valid. Cyprian held a council of African bishops in 255 and this council approved Cyprian’s view. He sent the decisions of the council on to Pope Stephen.
The Pope refused to approve. In his answer to Cyprian, Stephen took the stand that tradition was sacred. In often quoted words Stephen said, “Let there be no innovation beyond what has been handed down.” In other words, as supreme guardian of Christian tradition, Stephen refused to recognize Cyprian’s theory and practice as truly Christian.
I think I’ll take my coffee break now 😃 and continue my posting tomorrow. Have a good evening and God bless

p.s. Just because people (be it laity or clergy) disagree with the pope (which schismatics and heretics are wont to do) doesn’t deny the Pope’s primacy any more than the peoples in the Bible rejecting St. Paul’s authority belittle St. Paul’s apostleship (he even exhorts St. Timothy in scripture to stand firm because his authority would be challenged).
 
Ignatios:
You are proving yourself to be a formidable debater. But NONE of these have anything the do with the Question, However poorly and insensitively phrased that question may be…
First, Pope Victor was correct in stating they were practicing heterodoxy, i.e., they were known as the quatrodecimans (those who celebrated Easter on a day other than Sunday):

also:

finally:

In other words Ignatios, the closing of a Paschal fast can only end on a Sunday, thus Pope St. Victor was right, even though his approach was a little heavy handed. Suffice it to say, he had the authority to excommunicate the Asian church, hence, the reason he attempted to, but was stopped by the likes of St. Irenaeus not because he was denying St. Victor’s primacy/prerogatives but because he knew that St. Victor was being too heavy handed in his approach, i.e., he was challenging his decision not his authority (moreover St. Irenaeus agreed with St. Victor about celebrating Easter only on the Lord’s day). Moreover, this is similar to St. Peter being rebuked by St. Paul in Galatians (even though St. Paul knew that Peter had a primacy, i.e., universal jurisdiction (John 21:15-19)). Anyways, let me close off with the words of St. Irenaeus:
Ah, yes, the infamous rebaptism issue wherein both Firmilian and St. Cyprian were WRONG and St. Stephen was RIGHT (the supreme guardian of Christian tradition does it again :D). St. Cyprian was of the belief that all heretics should be rebaptized no matter how they were baptized. i.e., no exceptions even for those who were baptized in the trinitarian form with water, however this view was denounced by St. Stephen as innovation (something that was not practiced by the Church) and eventually placed with a more tolerant view which provided exceptions for those who were believed to have been baptized in a proper manner. Here is an excerpt I took from a Russian Orthdox cite:

The thing that you fail to see Ignatios is that St. Cyprian wrote a letter of the decisions determined in 255 A.D. expecting the Pope to ratify it, which he, of course, didn’t because St. Cyprian was denying tradition by introducing innovation:

I think I’ll take my coffee break now 😃 and continue my posting tomorrow. Have a good evening and God bless

p.s. Just because people (be it laity or clergy) disagree with the pope (which schismatics and heretics are wont to do) doesn’t deny the Pope’s primacy any more than the peoples in the Bible rejecting St. Paul’s authority belittle St. Paul’s apostleship (he even exhorts St. Timothy in scripture to stand firm because his authority would be challenged).
Josie L,
As you see above, I really wanted to stop for the sake of Lent time, as I have agreed with “Traditional Ang.”-Micheal-.
you don’t know how much I am burning inside to reply to you, You messed up big time in both of your replies, you actually refuted yourself in each one of them, not to mention also that 99% of both of your reponses were Irrelevant, to what I had conveyed in my prior response.
I think you should have taken your coffee Break prior to your response, or you should have waited untill after Lent.
Micheal I am trying to hold Back, Brother, as you see, May GOD help me.

GOD bless you all †††
 
Josie L,
As you see above, I really wanted to stop for the sake of Lent time, as I have agreed with “Traditional Ang.”-Micheal-.
you don’t know how much I am burning inside to reply to you, You messed up big time in both of your replies, you actually refuted yourself in each one of them, not to mention also that 99% of both of your reponses were Irrelevant, to what I had conveyed in my prior response.
I think you should have taken your coffee Break prior to your response, or you should have waited untill after Lent.
Micheal I am trying to hold Back, Brother, as you see, May GOD help me.

GOD bless you all †††
I applaud your resolution, but if it’s a desirable virtue during Lent, shouldn’t be desirable after Easter?

God bless you, too.
 
Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the Apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]). *
I’m with St. Cyprian. 🙂 Without the chair of St. Peter, the seat from which sacerdotal unity has its source, the Eastern Orthodox churches remain separate from the one holy Catholic Church. I pray that they return to the unity of the flock of St. Peter.*
 
Well, knowing that the former, i.e., epistle to the Corinthians was written by Pope St. Clement I without putting forth his name then it should make sense that Pope St. Clement would do the same again writing Hebrews (as that too lacks an author’s name). Moreover, who are these scholars that believe that Clement penned the letter as a secretary presbyter, because it seems that from the official/authoritative tone of the epistle, Clement is acting in a capacity far greater than “secretary presbyter,”

Also, Pope St. Clement indicates when the letter was written:

Now, Hegesippus states that Clement’s reign started 90 A.D. and ended in 99 A.D.

Anyways, the point I’m trying to make is this that Rome was sought out by the Corinthian Church because she had primacy (first see), and there is something else which I forgot to mention St. John was still alive at Ephesus (so one has to wonder why, being that he was an apostle, the Corinthian Church did not seek out the primary/immediate source so to speak). Also, by dint of what St. Ignatius says of the Church in Rome, i.e., a “source of instruction” , "presiding in love (over the churches), “foremost in love”. . . .etc., one can safely say that some sort of primacy was being exercised in Rome even in his time.
Hi Josie L:

The Book of Hebrews does not have the traditional greeting of an epistle, where the “from” and “to” are usually mentioned. Hebrews was attributed to St. Paul, although some in the Church denied this authorship. The tradition is that St. Clement *translated *the original Book of Hebrews into Greek, so I do not believe he would have included his name as translator.

There are two dates given for the date of authorship of 1 Clement: just before 70 AD and c. 96 AD. From internal evidence of the epistle, the letter was written right after a great persecution in Rome. Scholars understood this as being either the Neronian persecution just before 70 AD or during the Diocletian persecution c. 96 AD. In support of the earlier date, scholars mention that the epistle describes in the present tense sacrifices offered at the Temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 AD. Proponents of the c. 96 AD time mention how the Roman church is described as “ancient” and how some of those chosen for ministry by the Apostles have passed away. Part of the dating of 1 Clement concerns the dating of the canonical writings quoted within, especially the Book of Hebrews. If the scholar understands the Book of Hebrews to have been written after 70 AD (and also not by St. Paul, who died in the Neronian persecution) then the First Epistle of Clement is understood to have been written in c. 96 AD.

A major proponent of the earlier dating of 1 Clement was the scholar John A T Robinson, who also argued for an earlier dating of the canonical works. Thomas J Herron is a more recent Catholic scholar who has argued for the earlier dating. His doctoral dissertation was on the subject of the dating of Clement, and it was published in Rome by the pontifical university. Pope Benedict, when Cardinal Ratzinger, footnoted his work (see footnote 27 at adoremus.org/10-12-96-Ratzi.html). Some have argued that in doing so Cardinal Ratzinger espoused his view. I do not see the evidence for that, although I do not believe either that Cardinal Ratzinger would footnote a work completely quack. Earlier scholars who allegedly supported the earlier date are: Grotius, Grabe, Orsi, Uhlorn, Hefele and Wieseler. (see: churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/authors-gospels-3.htm)

Early Church writers speak of 1 Clement being written by Clement in the name of the Church of Rome, or being written by the Church of Rome through Clement. The early Roman Church did not yet have the monarchial bishop organization that later became the norm in the 2nd century. The Catholic historian Eamon Duffy, for example, writes that there was no “pope” in the early Roman Church, and indeed the office of “bishop” had not yet been established there, there instead existing a group of presbyters (see Saints & Sinners: A History of the Popes, Yale University Press, London, 2002, pp. 9-10). If 1 Clement were written in 70 AD, either Linus or Cletus would, according to the episcopal lists, have been “bishop” of Rome, but were the ecclesial situation such as Eamon describes it, Clement would have been a prominent presbyter writing on behalf of the Roman Church.

The Church of Corinth may have applied to St. John, yet her ties were with St. Paul, who was in Rome at the end of his ministry. It is reasonable to believe that St. Paul maintained, or attempted to maintain, connections with the churches he previously established, even as these letters may no longer be extant. As another poster mentioned, the city of Corinth itself was the destination for Jews expelled from Rome (which would have included Christian Jews). Corinth too by that time was a Roman colony city.

The encomium given by St. Ignatius and others is to the Church of Rome, the great city where St. Peter and Paul were martyred and which was resplendent in her orthodoxy. I am wary of seeing “foremost in love” or “presiding in love” as equivalents of “foremost in authority” and “presiding in authority.” The connection is not automatic. The Roman Christians showed their love in being witnesses to Christ (as during the Neronian persecution) and by their contribution in bringing concord amongst discord (as with the Corinthians).

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St. Ignatius certainly sees the Roman Church as a splendor of orthodoxy and holiness, yet I do not see him as setting the Roman Church above the other Churches. St. Ignatius writes of the Church that presides in the area of the Romans (the very same Church that presides elsewhere), and he seems to be indicating that the Roman Church exemplifies what it is to be Christian, and therefore is an instruction for the other churches on how to best live the Christian life. Indeed, more letters like that of Clement may have been written, enjoining on other churches to act righteously. Yet even here, I do not see it the authority of the Roman Church but the authority of the truth of the Scriptures and the New Covenant that condemns particular wrongdoing and establishes the path of righteousness instead to be followed.

So yes, the Church of Rome is *a *source of instruction (indeed a good one at the time of St. Ignatius), though not the source of instruction to be valued above that of the bishops outside of Rome.
 
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St. Ignatius certainly sees the Roman Church as a splendor of orthodoxy and holiness, yet I do not see him as setting the Roman Church above the other Churches. St. Ignatius writes of the Church that presides in the area of the Romans (the very same Church that presides elsewhere), and he seems to be indicating that the Roman Church exemplifies what it is to be Christian, and therefore is an instruction for the other churches on how to best live the Christian life. So yes, the Church of Rome is *a *source of instruction (indeed a good one at the time of St. Ignatius), though not the source of instruction to be valued above that of the bishops outside of Rome.
And St. Cyprian?
 
I truely hope that one day we will reunite. By the Grace of God it will happen.
 
And St. Cyprian?
Well, concerning the Chair of Peter, St. Cyprian understood that the Episcopate as a whole sits on the Chair of Peter. The Chair of Peter is therefore present in every church.

Roman Catholics I imagine agree, yet see this Chair of Peter as mediated through one Chair of Peter, found at Rome alone–i.e. the other bishops sit on the Chair of Peter because they sit on Papa’s lap. 🙂
 
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St Basil and the Western Bishops:
  1. In fighting the Arian heresy there is no evidence that St. Basil ever turned to Rome to settle the dispute. In fact, he turned to St. Athanasius bishop of Alexandria.
  2. When St. Basil did turn to the west for help he sought the general help of the western church, but never the specific help of the Roman bishop as supreme bishop. In fact, he addressed one letter to the bishops of Gaul and Italy putting Gaul first.
    “To his brethren truly God-beloved and very dear, and fellow ministers of like mind, the bishops of Gaul and Italy, Basil, bishop of Cæsarea in Cappadocia”. (Letter 243)
  3. St. Basil wrote letters showing that he had no respect for Pope Damasus when it came to ecclesiastical affairs.
Yes, St. Basil the Great did write a letter to St. Athanasius (Letter 69, to Athanasius, NFNP 2, 8: 165):
It has seemed to me to be desirable to send a letter to the bishop of Rome, begging him to examine our condition, and since there are difficulties in the way of representatives being sent from the West by a general synodical decree, to advise him [the bishop of Rome] to exercise his own personal authority in the matter by choosing suitable persons to sustain the labours of a journey, - suitable, too, by gentleness and firmness of character, to correct the unruly among us here.
Now here’s the letter that St. Basil wrote to Pope St. Damasus (albeit his name is not mentioned, St. Basil does reference Pope St.Dionysius, St. Damasus’s predecessor):
"To renew laws of ancient love, and once again to restore to vigorous life that heavenly and saving gift of Christ, which in course of time has withered away - the peace, I mean, of the fathers - is a labor necessary and profitable to me. But it is pleasant, too, as I am sure it will seem to your Christ-loving disposition.
For what could be more delightful than to behold all, who are separated by distances so vast, bound together by the union effected by love into one harmony of members in Christ’s body? Nearly all the East ( I include under this name all the regions from Illyricum to Egypt) is being agitated, right honorable father, by a terrible storm and tempest. The old heresy, sown by Arius the enemy of the truth, has now boldly and unblushingly reappeared. Like some sour root, it is producing its deadly fruit and is prevailing. The reason is that in every district the champions of orthodoxy have been exiled from their churches by calumny and outrage, and the control of affairs has been handed over to men who are leading captive the souls of the simpler brethren. I have come to see the visit of your mercifulness as the only possible solution of our difficulties.
In the past, I have ever been consoled by your extraodinary affection; and for a short time my heart was cheered by the gratifying report that we shall be visited by you. But, as I was disappointed, **I have been constrained to beg you by letter to be moved to help us, and to send some of those who are like-minded with us, back either to conciliate the dissidents and bring the churches of God plainly who are responsible for our unsettled state, that it may be clear to you, for future reference , with whom it befits you to be in communion. In this I am by no means making any novel request, but am only asking what has been customary in the case of men who, before our own day, were blessed and dear to God, and conspicuously in your own case. **
For I well remember learning from the answers made by our fathers when asked, and from documents still preserved among us, that the illustrious and blessed Bishop Dionysius, conspicuous in your see as well for soundness of faith as for all other virtues, visited by letter my Church of Caesarea, and by letter exhorted our fathers, and sent men to ransom our brethren from captivity. But now our condition is yet more painful and gloomy and needs more careful treatment. We are lamenting no mere overthrow of earthly buildings, but the capture of churches. What we see before us is no mere bodily slavery, but a carrying away of souls into captivity, perpetrated day by day by the champions of heresy.
If you are not, even now, moved to console us, before long all will have fallen under the dominion of the heresy, and you will find none left to whom you may hold out your hand.
NFNP 2 8: 166-167
 
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