Do those who leave the Church go to Hell?

[PRmerger]

Show me a verse in scripture that says each book has to declare it’s own inspiration to be so. This is what you always say to me.

Exactly.

So what do* you *use to determine whether an ancient Christian text is inspired or not?

BTW the Jews did just fine without your help determining scripture for themselves or do they owe you all for that.

Of course they can determine for themselves what’s inspired.

What we’re talking about is how YOU know what’s Scripture.

And the only way YOU do, is because you’ve submitted to the authority of the CC.

Unless you want to say, of your own authority, that the Gospel of Thomas is inspired?

 

[Telstar]

Show me a verse in scripture that says each book has to declare it’s own inspiration to be so. This is what you always say to me.

BTW the Jews did just fine without your help determining scripture for themselves or do they owe you all for that.

The Jews also followed two forms of the Law. They had the Talmud and the Torah. As I understand it, one is in the form of Holy Scripture that was written down on scrolls, carefully copied over many generations by scribes. The other (equally important) was the oral tradition of the Law that was passed down by word of mouth through the Priests (rabbi), that enhanced the meaning of the stories that were written down. Both forms of the Mosaic Law were very important methods of passing the word of God on to His people. Why is it such a stretch for anyone to believe that the Church that Jesus founded would also use those same methods of leading His followers? The Apostles were Jews that were raised with both forms of the Law. They did not reject the oral tradition just because it came from the mouths of Priests, and wasn’t written down on scrolls. The method of transmitting that portion of the Law was also through the people memorizing those stories, that were passed down through many generations, as another part of the same Jewish Law.

If everything that the Apostles taught were written down, there would be hundreds of volumes written, but not all of them could be called ‘scripture’. Some parts of Tradition are written down in the form of Catholic Doctrine and Dogma that can easily be found and read. Another part of Sacred Tradition is what’s written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as a guide for all Catholics. Not all of Tradition is strictly ‘oral’, by any stretch of the imagination. Much of it has been written down, and passed on through the past 2000 years. The Holy Spirit has never stopped inspiring the Catholic Church with His influence over those past 2000 years, and He never will.

 

[PJM]

=Bezant;8421959]If all those sins are equally mortal sins, and all those sins are equally condemnable:

There could be a sinner condemned to the state of hell for deliberately missing mass (without repenting) – the same punishment as a homocidal, sodomising rapist.

Why would God rule the condemnation to two VASTLY different offenses?

Why would God condemn an apostate, if that Truth wasn’t made apparent to him?

Tell that to the Orthodox members.

To humanity applying out logic to Divine matters; simply does not compute. SEE ISAIAH 55:7-8…

The issue here of missing Mass intentionally is the same as DENYING GOD [the one unforgiveable sin] Matt.12: 31-32 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

NOTICE that the first THREE Commandments are related to honoring God:
Exo. 20: ** 1. "And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” 2. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; ** “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day” 3. "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “

The truth IS and HAS BEEN MADE CLEAR: NO WHERE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE DOES GOD EVEN ONCE PERMIT MORE THAN ONE GOD; ONE SET OF BELIEFS AND ONE CHURCH…SO THE INFORMATION IS THERE. IF ONE CHOOSES TO IGNORE OR DENY IT; ONE DOES SO AT RISK OF SALVATION.

Humanity most often does not detest sin as God does!

The Orthodox are in SCHISM; they have NOT abandoned God, sought a fales religion; still accept all of the commandments and ALL seven of the sacraments; and they are NOT considered “non-catholic/proptestants”… Will there be a price to pay for denial of the Pope; sure; but God will address that is God’s own way. Just as there remains HOPE for salvation of protestants who do not KNOWN the truth of the RCC; so too the Orthodox able to be saved.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=Bezant;8422814]I will not provide evidence for a (relative) claim I did not make or accept.

I said, it was not obviously clear, FROM MANKIND’S POINT OF VIEW, that the Catholic Church was The Truth.

Is this hard for you to believe? Would most of the world be non-believers, if the Catholic Church was obviously The Way?

WHY OF COURSE IT IS! No other church can trace there hsitory back to the the Apostles except some Orthodox; who are is schism from the POPE and Rome. But still conneccted to the CC. The Way/ Christians and in 110 AD Catholics are ALL historically proiveable.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[StevenFrancis]

This made me laugh. Not really answerable by man which is why I suppose you answered you suppose so.

Glad to supply a chuckle. I don’t really get the joke. It’s apparently in the portion where I used ‘I suppose’ to imply conjecture for a portion of my remarks. This was instead of ‘I know’, which would have been inappropriate, since I don’t.

Anyway…Enjoy.

Peace,

Steven

 

[CopticChristian]

Show me a verse in scripture that says each book has to declare it’s own inspiration to be so. This is what you always say to me.

BTW the Jews did just fine without your help determining scripture for themselves or do they owe you all for that.

I do not have the answer but it raises an interesting question. The Old Testament is agreed on as being the Old Testament not imposing the Council of Jambia or whatever it was called. The council that never existed.

What is worth looking at is all the books of the Old Testament. How do we know that they are Scripture. Are they self authenticating? Do they say they are Scripture? If they are designated to be Scripture then by whom? Are there in time the King Tut version, The New International Old Testament version, The Geneva ben Israel version, The New/Old World translation and all the other sorts of translations that were rendered as it concerns the Bible of today? I know that the Samaritans had a version that was different and that there was the Septuagint and perhaps another version. I wonder?

 

[Emerite]

Regarding Josephback’s statement, “The Catechism teaches that one who knows the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and refuses to remain inside cannot be saved. But depending on how good their catechesis was, do those who leave really realize what they are doing We live in a very relativistic age. Confusion abounds,” I know of one person who left the Church to become Protestant, then Jewish – (confused) who was declared mentally ill. My belief is that this person hasn’t gone to Hell, and that our spirits might meet someday in heaven or purgatory.

 

[PJM]

=CopticChristian;8449955]I do not have the answer but it raises an interesting question. The Old Testament is agreed on as being the Old Testament not imposing the Council of Jambia or whatever it was called. The council that never existed.

What is worth looking at is all the books of the Old Testament. How do we know that they are Scripture. Are they self authenticating? Do they say they are Scripture? If they are designated to be Scripture then by whom? Are there in time the King Tut version, The New International Old Testament version, The Geneva ben Israel version, The New/Old World translation and all the other sorts of translations that were rendered as it concerns the Bible of today? I know that the Samaritans had a version that was different and that there was the Septuagint and perhaps another version. I wonder?

Because God has said so and God CANNOT LIE!

**2nd. Tim. 3:16 **All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work

Matt. 16:18-19"[And I [GOD] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Rom.10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ”

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2 Peter 3: 14 –17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures”

**2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 First **of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing"

Eph. 4: 18 “they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;”

**1 John 4: 4-9 **“Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”

John 14: 16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you

And Jesus Himself is the warranty: should we seek more

***John 17: 14-19 **“I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

God Bless,
Pat

 

[rbarcia]

For a church that claims to have an authority in Rome, you would think someone can point directly to a link in some council or some place in the cat. to answer this question. Can’t someone post some official text here?

 

[PRmerger]

For a church that claims to have an authority in Rome, you would think someone can point directly to a link in some council or some place in the cat. to answer this question. Can’t someone post some official text here?

The Catholic Church does not claim omniscience, rb. Only infallibility.

So she makes no pronouncements whatsoever as to whether as soul has merited eternal damnation.

 

[rbarcia]

The Catholic Church does not claim omniscience, rb. Only infallibility.

So she makes no pronouncements whatsoever as to whether as soul has merited eternal damnation.

so the rcc makes no such claim?

Baptism: "If anyone says that the Roman Church...does not have the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, anathema sit...If anyone says that baptism is ...not necessary for salvation, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 7).

Purgatory: If any one says, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened to him; let him be anathema (Council of Trent, Session 6).

Papal infallibility: The Roman Pontiff... possesses...that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema (First Vatican Council).

Transubstantiation: If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really and substantially contained, but says that he is in it only in a sign or figure...anathema sit (Council ofTrent, Session 12).

Sacrifice of the Mass: If anyone says that the sacrifice of the Mass is merely an offering of praise and thanksgiving, or that it is a simple commemoration of the sacrifice accomplished on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice...offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfaction and other necessities, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 12).

Confession: If anyone denies that the sacramental confession was instituted, and is necessary for salvation, by divine Law; or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human invention, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 14).

Pope Zachary: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

 

[jericho777]

I do not have the answer but it raises an interesting question. The Old Testament is agreed on as being the Old Testament not imposing the Council of Jambia or whatever it was called. The council that never existed.

What is worth looking at is all the books of the Old Testament. How do we know that they are Scripture. Are they self authenticating? Do they say they are Scripture? If they are designated to be Scripture then by whom? Are there in time the King Tut version, The New International Old Testament version, The Geneva ben Israel version, The New/Old World translation and all the other sorts of translations that were rendered as it concerns the Bible of today? I know that the Samaritans had a version that was different and that there was the Septuagint and perhaps another version. I wonder?

I agree more research is warranted. I’m not sure either how the Jews canonized scripture. It was translated into Greek though. I found this and found it interesting. Take it for what it’s worth. “The Old Testament contains 39 (Protestant) or 46 (Catholic) or more (Orthodox and other) books, divided, very broadly, into the Pentateuch (meaning “five books”), the historical books, the “wisdom” books and the prophets. The difference of seven books between the Catholic and Protestant canons stems from the fact that the early Christians used a Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures which differed from the one which came to be accepted by the Jews; the Protestant churches later dropped those books which were not accepted by the Jews.”

 

[christosdavid]

so the rcc makes no such claim?

Baptism: "If anyone says that the Roman Church...does not have the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, anathema sit...If anyone says that baptism is ...not necessary for salvation, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 7).

Purgatory: If any one says, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened to him; let him be anathema (Council of Trent, Session 6).

Papal infallibility: The Roman Pontiff... possesses...that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema (First Vatican Council).

Transubstantiation: If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really and substantially contained, but says that he is in it only in a sign or figure...anathema sit (Council ofTrent, Session 12).

Sacrifice of the Mass: If anyone says that the sacrifice of the Mass is merely an offering of praise and thanksgiving, or that it is a simple commemoration of the sacrifice accomplished on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice...offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfaction and other necessities, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 12).

Confession: If anyone denies that the sacramental confession was instituted, and is necessary for salvation, by divine Law; or says that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is at variance with the institution and command of Christ and is a human invention, anathema sit (Council of Trent, Session 14).

Pope Zachary: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

Doctrinally speaking all apostates are in mortal sin but that is a very broad statement and only God himself knows who He has given the grace of perseverance to.

 

[PRmerger]

so the rcc makes no such claim?

She makes no claim as to whether a soul is in hell.

Unless you want to find some sort of Magisterial statement that declares this. Please cite the individual who the Church has declared to be in hell, and the document which states this.

Now the quotes you provided tell us that Catholics are bound by certain things–such as baptism, but she makes no pronouncements as to whether a person is in hell.

 

[PJM]

Matthew chapter seven explianes how and if, and when we are expected to judge others:

13-21 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ***You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? *** So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits."Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

***From this foundation in the light of Eph. 4:1-7. *** “**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, **Meaning only One set of beliefs] **one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift”

Then adding to this ONE ONLY God-Faith- Church is this writeen to this very same group as there were NO OTHER churches in existence at the time:**Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: **For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, CONFIRMED AS A CATHOLIC -ones own personal covenant with God] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, HAD THE BIBLE PROPERLY, FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY EXPLAINED AT MASS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, **it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned." **

In light of the above PERHAPS a better queation might be: “why would they not go to hell If they do not repent and convert”?

We CANNOT judge motives; but ARE to judge actions [fruits of their decisions]. ANYONE leaving the CC for ANY reason; is at GRAVE RISK if they do not repent; and return to the ONLY God; Only Faith [set of required BY GOD beliefs: [Mt.16:18-19], is going to get the just reward of there denial of God and of the ONLY faith and ONLY Church that Christ Himself founded.

And this will be God’s Judgement; Not mine:

God Bless, we NOT God decide where we choose to spend eternity. BUT God must judge us by OUR choices.

1 John 4: 4-9 “Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.”

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

**1 Peter 1: 17 **“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,"

***THE FACT THAT WE CANNOT JUDGE DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE CANNOT KNOW:thumbsup: Where ones ends up for eternity ought not be a surprise to anyone who is honest with themselves and there own choices. ***

God Bless,
Pat