Do we as Catholics worship Mary

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Are you saying that Mary was born to defeat death?

mlchance
You didn’t answer my question: By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?

– Mark L. Chance.

i’m confused. Is the subject Mary or some refence to Christ?
Secondly, do you believe that if Mary had said no it would have stopped God’s plan of salvation?

 

[mlchance]

i’m confused. Is the subject Mary or some refence to Christ?

What’s to be confused about? It’s a simple question. Once again, it becomes obvious that you’re incapable/unwilling to understand the Church’s teaching regarding the Blessed Virgin. Thus, your critiques of said teachings are essentially absurd.

Secondly, do you believe that if Mary had said no it would have stopped God’s plan of salvation?

Irrelevant. The fact is that the Virgin Mary said yes.

Now, back to my question: By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[justasking4]

What’s to be confused about? It’s a simple question. Once again, it becomes obvious that you’re incapable/unwilling to understand the Church’s teaching regarding the Blessed Virgin. Thus, your critiques of said teachings are essentially absurd.

Irrelevant. The fact is that the Virgin Mary said yes.

Now, back to my question: By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?

– Mark L. Chance.

i would say Jesus but i can’t always tell with a lot of these so called devotionals on Mary. There are hymns and writings that i have seen that essentially say she is a goddess. Are you familar with these kinds of things?

 

[Aramis]

i would say Jesus but i can’t always tell with a lot of these so called devotionals on Mary. There are hymns and writings that i have seen that essentially say she is a goddess. Are you familar with these kinds of things?

Yes. They are heresy. And they seem to be mostly a Latin Rite phenomena.

 

[mlchance]

i would say Jesus…

You would say, or you are saying? By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?

There are hymns and writings that i have seen that essentially say she is a goddess. Are you familar with these kinds of things?

People say all sorts of crazy things. There is no Church-approved devotional that asserts the Blessed Virgin is a goddess. Not one. The Church has not now nor has she ever taught that the Virgin Mary is a goddess. No matter how much you try to prove otherwise, the Church has not now nor has she ever taught anyone other than God is to be worshipped.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rinnie]

All i can say is my whole life my Dad loved the Blessed Mother. She was his angel that helped him through life. There were two people he went to his whole life when he was troubled, God and the Blessed Mother. When he went to her she went with him to God and always helped him. My Dad had a operation Last Friday he was in the BLessed Mothers arms as he had the operation. He came out of the operation, but then God called him home. I know in my heart that when he met God Face to Face he also met the Blessed Mother. And i know in my heart that GOd never had a problem with him going to the Mother he left us. Thats why he brought her here and left her here. FOR US. God Bless.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

The Church has not now nor has she ever taught that the Virgin Mary is a goddess. No matter how much you try to prove otherwise, the Church has not now nor has she ever taught anyone other than God is to be worshipped.

– Mark L. Chance.

From New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia which carries an impramatur, the entry on Christian Worship. newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.

There are several degrees of this worship:

-if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
-When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
-As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
i would say Jesus but i can’t always tell with a lot of these so called devotionals on Mary. There are hymns and writings that i have seen that essentially say she is a goddess. Are you familar with these kinds of things?

Aramis
Yes. They are heresy. And they seem to be mostly a Latin Rite phenomena.

Do you think the catholic church should come out and rebuke these things and warn catholics not to “engage” in these kinds of practices?

 

[justasking4]

mlchance;3403915]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There are hymns and writings that i have seen that essentially say she is a goddess. Are you familar with these kinds of things?

mlchance
People say all sorts of crazy things.

Are you familar with The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Liguori?

There is no Church-approved devotional that asserts the Blessed Virgin is a goddess. Not one. The Church has not now nor has she ever taught that the Virgin Mary is a goddess. No matter how much you try to prove otherwise, the Church has not now nor has she ever taught anyone other than God is to be worshipped.

– Mark L. Chance.

I agree the catholic church has never said nor taught that she is a goddess. However when you study the doctrines and the practices and writings about her that are drawn from them then you are faced with forms of worship.
Consider these things:
1- able to hear millions of prayers at once
2- her helped is implored at the hour of death
3 -candles that are lite before statutes of her.
4- people kneeling in front praying
5- individuals, organizations and even popes have dedicated their lives to her
6- is being thought of the Spouse of the Holy Spirit
7- hymns of praise to her
8- titles given to her
9- without sin

There is much more that could be said but all of these things point to the idea that she is not just a human, but is greater in power than even angels. Only God is greater than her.

 

[ForMary]

jttierney1;:

Why do non-catholics think we Catholics worship Mary?
Tietjen;:

Because we pray to her. Many Protestants equate prayer with worship.

We venerate we do not worship. We pray to her and we ask her to pray for us. Just like someone might talk to one (who has passed on) at a grave sight or soldier’s memorial or anywhere, we can pray (talk) to all those who have gone before us in hopes of being heard and answered.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think the catholic church should come out and rebuke these things and warn catholics not to “engage” in these kinds of practices?

The Catholic Church has come out against all heresies since day one, and has rebuked those that espouse them. The Church is very clear that people should not indulge any kind of idolatry.

I agree the catholic church has never said nor taught that she is a goddess. However when you study the doctrines and the practices and writings about her that are drawn from them then you are faced with forms of worship.

Only if your understanding of worship is very deficient.

Consider these things:
1- able to hear millions of prayers at once
2- her helped is implored at the hour of death
3 -candles that are lite before statutes of her.
4- people kneeling in front praying
5- individuals, organizations and even popes have dedicated their lives to her
6- is being thought of the Spouse of the Holy Spirit
7- hymns of praise to her
8- titles given to her
9- without sin

There is much more that could be said but all of these things point to the idea that she is not just a human, but is greater in power than even angels. Only God is greater than her.

I am sorry that you have so many misunderstandings about Catholic Teaching and devotion. Perhaps you could get them corrected if you were willing to open your mind to understand how other people’s religious practice is different from yours? No human can do anything without the grace and power of God. It would behoove anyone, but especially those who are in their hour of death, to ask for all the prayers of the most pious people they know. Candles and icons/pictures are used at funerals too. Do you think Catholics are worshipping their relatives? What has one thing got to do with the other? People are free to kneel and pray whereever they wish in this country (so far!). What does that have to do with idolatry? How is dedication idolatry? Marines make an oath to the country and the Corps too, they dedicate their lives in service. Are they worshipping their Corps or their Country, because they are dedicated?

Mary is the Spouse of the HS. That does not make her God. On the contrary, God became man. Titles given to people don’t make them gods either.

God gives sufficient grace to every person to live without sin. That does not make us gods, either. You seem to be created problems for yourself where no problem exists.

 

[Aramis]

Do you think the catholic church should come out and rebuke these things and warn catholics not to “engage” in these kinds of practices?

Local bishops are supposed to do so. And, at least in Alaska, have done so.

Priests are supposed to also teach the difference between open heretical deification of Mary versus appropriate reverence… but many priests do not. Again, it is the bishop’s responsibility to see to it his subordinate priests are both orthodox and orthopractic, and that they teach the same to the faithful.

 

[rinnie]

Thru him with him and in him in unity with the Holy Spirit all Power and Glory is yours Almighty Father Forever and ever amen. Any one of you are welcome to go to a Roman Catholic Church and you will hear this. Every single mass. Anyone who can say that this Church is saying to worship the Blessed Mother just arent paying attention. You can also go on the catholic television station. Watch the mass. It is there every day. The same mass that we attend. So anyone who says this isnt true go to mass. There is no other proof that the Catholic Religion can give. They say it every day of the week. Just because people dont pay attention, isnt the fault of the Catholic Church. They sure teach it every day.

 

[water]

I went to a museum recently exhibiting paintings of Saints, Holy Trinity, and Virgin Mary. They are very nice paintings back in 17 and 18 centuries.

Those who organized the exhibits wrote this:

“Catholic promoted worship images of Saints and Virgin Mary”. They used the word “worship” twice.

I complained to the front desk - all they could say was “We know that there were few people complaining before. We are sorry about it.”

I let another group of people who will be visiting this weekend to complain about this.

What a big misconception about Catholicsm.

 

[rinnie]

I went to a museum recently exhibiting paintings of Saints, Holy Trinity, and Virgin Mary. They are very nice paintings back in 17 and 18 centuries.

Those who organized the exhibits wrote this:

“Catholic promoted worship images of Saints and Virgin Mary”. They used the word “worship” twice.

I complained to the front desk - all they could say was “We know that there were few people complaining before. We are sorry about it.”

I let another group of people who will be visiting this weekend to complain about this.

What a big misconception about Catholicsm.

Well lets start here what does worship mean, Intense love or admiration. title of honor, That is what Catholics mean by worship when it comes to Mary. The ten commandment says I the Lord am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. When someone can show me how we put the Blessed Mother over God or consider her God then they will have a case. 4th commandment Honor your Father and Mother. Did Jesus not leave her to us at the foot of the cross. Again look up worship in the dictionary its says honor.

 

[water]

Well lets start here what does worship mean, Intense love or admiration. title of honor, That is what Catholics mean by worship when it comes to Mary. The ten commandment says I the Lord am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. When someone can show me how we put the Blessed Mother over God or consider her God then they will have a case. 4th commandment Honor your Father and Mother. Did Jesus not leave her to us at the foot of the cross. Again look up worship in the dictionary its says honor.

I agree that it has different meaning; however, when we live in the time when worship means as in “worshiping God” to a lot of people, using other word to avoid misunderstanding is a better way. In fact, many people think that Catholics do worship Mary as if She is God.

 

[rinnie]

I agree that it has different meaning; however, when we live in the time when worship means as in “worshiping God” to a lot of people, using other word to avoid misunderstanding is a better way. In fact, many people think that Catholics do worship Mary as if She is God.

Yes i see what you mean. But i guess people who want to believe the worst will, no matter what we say. How sad huh, Oh well we know the truth and that is all God has to know. He knows our hearts. And he left us the church for a reason. We are the lucky ones.

 

[water]

Yes i see what you mean. But i guess people who want to believe the worst will, no matter what we say. How sad huh, Oh well we know the truth and that is all God has to know. He knows our hearts. And he left us the church for a reason. We are the lucky ones.

I believe that there are more people who misunderstand our faith than those who knows the truth but chose to ignore it. That is why it is important to help those who are misinformed.

 

[rinnie]

I believe that there are more people who misunderstand our faith than those who knows the truth but chose to ignore it. That is why it is important to help those who are misinformed.

Amen to that

 

[panoikei]

I went to a museum recently exhibiting paintings of Saints, Holy Trinity, and Virgin Mary. They are very nice paintings back in 17 and 18 centuries.

Those who organized the exhibits wrote this:

“Catholic promoted worship images of Saints and Virgin Mary”. They used the word “worship” twice.

I complained to the front desk - all they could say was “We know that there were few people complaining before. We are sorry about it.”

I let another group of people who will be visiting this weekend to complain about this.

What a big misconception about Catholicsm.

In our conversion process, me reverting, I asked for where the catholic bibles were. The young woman said something like I think the Gnostic books are over here, walking me to them." I burned up and said that just not true. Catholics are NOT Gnostics! I said and I’m not even Catholic so that’s just uneducated. A young Catholic man was working their within weeks and built up a nice Catholic collection in plain view. But now that he’s gone, the area has been pushed into a hiding place it seems. We go there from time to time, and I will check again. But if they continue to emphasize such heresy, I will complain and send a bulk email/snail male to all the parishes and post here. It is a “Christian” bookstore.

But I like what one post said and after thinking about it I find it to be true…Protestants do not really worship God. They say they do, but their worship really is praise. Well praise can be given to children. If they mean praise the way we praise our children when they do good, then it just matches the Jesus is my buddy concept. But Catholics and Orthodox truly worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There is no question as to what we are doing. We really worship God.

We venerate, pray to, Angels, Saints, holy objects [statues, bones, crosses, paintings, etc.] to remind us in a deeper way, utilizing the senses to help us enter into a deep meditative state. We ask for help from Saints much like we ask for help from those in high places or those with friends in high places. This is all scriptural.

Now, the problem is that Protestants see the bible as the only sacramental allowed…WHY? Because they place much more emphasis on the Bible than God. Jesus is God, scriptural, Jesus handed authority to the Church [with primacy to Peter], scripture is only part of sacred Tradition in written form. But when you study the early church there is not doubt to the devotion to Mary. Look at the catacombs… Engraved images all over the place. I see pictures, and statues are only 3-D pictures to me, as a form of communication much like caligraphy [sp?]. It was and still remains an effective way to communicate to those with little or no reading abilities.

True, some Catholics probably do go that far, but that is deeply sinful and condemnation may be the cause for it. People do all kinds of things that are wrong, some that seem really Catholic end up being heretics, probably not even by their own faults, but their own ignorance and stupidity [not very smart]. But some do it sinfully knowing I’m sure, but we can’t be the judge of that.

I like Eastern Catholicisms devotion to the Jesus Prayer more than the Rosary, but I recite the rosary the correct way…meditating on the life of Christ. It’s nothing more than scripture when you pull it apart. As far as glowing statutes and wierd stuff like that, what ever works for you, but you do need to pay more attention to Christ. After all Mary is there to lead us to Christ, not replace him. So get it right people. We are Christ centered, not Mary centered. Pray for those that take it too far.

Peace in Christ.