J
justasking4
Guest
I suspect Jesus.
Is Mary your life?
Is it by her intercession, that she restores people to life?
- Status
Is Mary your life?
Is it by her intercession, that she restores people to life?
M
mlchance
Guest
You suspect? You don’t know who the Pardon is that the author is referring to? And yet you feel qualified to criticize him? Let’s try another question:
By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?
– Mark L. Chance.
T
The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
There are some points that should be laid out that have it’s basis on what Christ accomplished on the cross:
The forgiveness of sins previously incurred by man.
The pledge of forgiveness of future sins to be committed.
The restoration of man to the “likeness” of God.
In the Fall man had lost that “likeness”-that is his original state of immortality-by sinning.
That restoration is what allows us to be called not just servants but children of God. We are adopted by the Father as children in His only Son through baptism in the Spirit. The Catholic Church calls this Divine Filiation.
Basically it is through Christ’s sheer grace and our response in faith that we have been divinized in Him. This is shown in scripture as Jesus giving authority to Peter and the apostles, such as the authority to forgive sins in His name. “We are God’s coworkers,” Paul writes in one of his letters. Jesus gives authority that is properly His to those whom belong to Him-the Saints. First and foremost of all the saints is that one whom He made from the foundation of the world to be His mother, His spouse, His queen, and the personification of the Church.
That person is Mary.
Because Mary is the personification of His Church He works with her and through her. She cooperates with her Son in the Spirit to bring to birth more sons for Her Son to call brothers through baptism.
She bestows grace because Jesus gives her that grace to bestow among her children-the Church.
I know as a father that, say when I buy candy at the store for example, that when it comes time to give them that candy it becomes a mess. But when I give the candy to my wife she always finds ways to make sure each of my children get the right amount and at due times. Such is the wisdom of mothers.
As far as Mary being our life she is because we live in hope to be as she is now. This is in reference to her assumption.
Because Jesus was the only man who ever who could observe the Law fully and completely, the Catholic Church holds that for Mary Jesus fulfilled the fourth commandment to the fullest extent.
We believe that from the beginning of her creation to the end of her earthly life, Jesus-the Word through which everything was made-honored her by His sheer gratuitous grace to the fullest. We believe He created her without sin, she lived her entire life in devotion and faith to Him and suffered as He suffered at Calvary. And we believe that at the end of her life Christ brought her to heaven body and soul to be the sign our our future glory.
Because she is in heaven and sits at the right hand of her Son-as the queen mother sat next to the king in the Davidic dynasty of teh Old Covenant-we believe that she makes intercession for us.
And to say that she, or any of the other saints for that matter, are dead I believe is wrong. In fact I believe that all of the saints in heaven are more alive than we are because they behold Christ in His glory.
She obtains pardon for our sins because she asks and Jesus out of love for her and us says ‘yes’.
Remember what Mary says in her fiat: “My soul magnifies the Lord.”
To love and honor her is to love Christ because He loved and honored her first.
The forgiveness of sins previously incurred by man.
The pledge of forgiveness of future sins to be committed.
The restoration of man to the “likeness” of God.
In the Fall man had lost that “likeness”-that is his original state of immortality-by sinning.
That restoration is what allows us to be called not just servants but children of God. We are adopted by the Father as children in His only Son through baptism in the Spirit. The Catholic Church calls this Divine Filiation.
Basically it is through Christ’s sheer grace and our response in faith that we have been divinized in Him. This is shown in scripture as Jesus giving authority to Peter and the apostles, such as the authority to forgive sins in His name. “We are God’s coworkers,” Paul writes in one of his letters. Jesus gives authority that is properly His to those whom belong to Him-the Saints. First and foremost of all the saints is that one whom He made from the foundation of the world to be His mother, His spouse, His queen, and the personification of the Church.
That person is Mary.
Because Mary is the personification of His Church He works with her and through her. She cooperates with her Son in the Spirit to bring to birth more sons for Her Son to call brothers through baptism.
She bestows grace because Jesus gives her that grace to bestow among her children-the Church.
I know as a father that, say when I buy candy at the store for example, that when it comes time to give them that candy it becomes a mess. But when I give the candy to my wife she always finds ways to make sure each of my children get the right amount and at due times. Such is the wisdom of mothers.
As far as Mary being our life she is because we live in hope to be as she is now. This is in reference to her assumption.
Because Jesus was the only man who ever who could observe the Law fully and completely, the Catholic Church holds that for Mary Jesus fulfilled the fourth commandment to the fullest extent.
We believe that from the beginning of her creation to the end of her earthly life, Jesus-the Word through which everything was made-honored her by His sheer gratuitous grace to the fullest. We believe He created her without sin, she lived her entire life in devotion and faith to Him and suffered as He suffered at Calvary. And we believe that at the end of her life Christ brought her to heaven body and soul to be the sign our our future glory.
Because she is in heaven and sits at the right hand of her Son-as the queen mother sat next to the king in the Davidic dynasty of teh Old Covenant-we believe that she makes intercession for us.
And to say that she, or any of the other saints for that matter, are dead I believe is wrong. In fact I believe that all of the saints in heaven are more alive than we are because they behold Christ in His glory.
She obtains pardon for our sins because she asks and Jesus out of love for her and us says ‘yes’.
Remember what Mary says in her fiat: “My soul magnifies the Lord.”
To love and honor her is to love Christ because He loved and honored her first.
J
justasking4
Guest
Have you read the Glories of Mary? If so, what did you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Is it by her intercession, that she restores people to life?
That’s not what he said.
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
Partly because most non-Catholics define worship as “praying to someone and singing songs about them,” since that’s how they worship God. So by that definition, it would seem to them that we worship Mary.
M
mlchance
Guest
I think the author’s prose is a tad overblown for the modern ear due to its rather archaic nature. It is also unfortunate that his work lends itself to distortion by those who are inimical to the Church and to the Mother of God.
You didn’t answer my question. You’ve not actually answered any of my questions, IIRC. Right now I’m too tired to scroll back up to look.
All Marian doctrines can only be properly interpreted in light of the Blessed Virgin’s relationship with and to Jesus Christ. Removed of this context (such as by those who distort Marian doctrine due to their refusal/inability to understand what the Church truly means), Marian doctrines become basically meaningless.
Since you apparently will not/cannot keep Marian doctrines within their proper, Christocentric context, your evaluation of said doctrines are likewise basically meaningless.
No matter how hard you try to prove otherwise, the Church does not now nor has she ever instructed Catholics to worship anyone other than God. Catholics who worship anyone other than God do so in opposition to explicitly clear Church teaching.
– Mark L. Chance.
G
guanophore
Guest
Sciptures plainly state that we should give praise to the praiseworthy, and honor to whom it is due. Just as someone recently praised you in another thread, for contributing to the clarification and preaching of the teaching of Jesus. “give honor to whom honor is due”. Perhaps you have too narrow a use of the word praise? The pet store I frequent has flyers that say one should "praise your dog when they do what you want’. It is not worship, it is a recognition and appreciation of the right place of someone.
G
guanophore
Guest
None of us can do anything of eternal value without Christ. We can be particpants in saving a soul from death, if God so wills. It is not of ourselves that we save, but through His death on the cross that we can, by faith, particpate. This is evident in the NT.
This statement exemplifies the entire problem with sola scriptura. It is impossible for those in the present era to understand and interpret what was meant by the Writers, since we are so separated from their culture and belief. The only way we can do this is by understanding what they wrote ('said") in the light of what was meant by those that wrote!
Therefore a literal interpretation is that which understands what the writer meant. A literalist interpretation is that which thinks “what he said”.
You “suspect” rightly, as Jesus is the source and summit of all life. Mary represents the fullness of what Christ intends to do with all of humanity. She embodies what Jesus brings to all Christians. Only Jesus restores to life. Inasmuch as we are participants in the Life o Christ, the we too can restore people to Life. Life comes from Jesus, and we are grafted into Him, which is the only reason we can contribute to the resoration of Life.
T
tonnnie2008
Guest
Because they hail her and they pray to her… That it thats the reason…
J
justasking4
Guest
Are you saying that Mary was born to defeat death?
J
justasking4
Guest
Where do the scriptures say that a person who has died can intercede for the living here?
Huh? I can and others can understand quite clearly what this man wrote. This is not some kind of gnostic writing is it that a person needs some kind of “secret knowledge” to understand do we?
This kind of thing would apply to anyone who reads. You think he meant something just as i do. Even if its not meant “literally” does not change the fact its a false.
Where are you getting this idea that “Mary represents the fullness of what Christ intends to do with all of humanity” from? No apostle ever said such a thing.
Think what you are claiming here with this assertion. No one in NT ever ever spoke like this. This is what happens when you deny the scriptures and put your faith in the marian doctrines. God’s purpose for us to to become comformed to the image of His Son. We see this in Romans 8:29-30 where it says –
29-For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
G
guanophore
Guest
The scriptures say that there is only One Body, and that all who are members of Christ are members of His Body. The Scriptures also say that we should pray one for another, and bear one another’s burdens. The Scriptures also say that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If you think they are “dead”, then you are denying the Teaching of Jesus that those who have eternal life NEVER DIE.
The words don’t mean the same thing now as they did the time they were written. To understand the Bible clearly, we need to understand how the writers used the words. For example, John uses the word “woman” from Jesus to refer to His mother. By this, he means to compare her to Eve. However, in our modern culture, this use of the word is considered disrespectful to a woman.
The scriptures are not “false” ja4. Sometimes people interpret them with a literalist perspective, and come up with a “false” understanding of them, because they are not understanding what the writer meant to say.
The writers of the NT wrote plenty, but you are right, they were not all Apostles. Luke describes Mary as “the Mother of my Lord”. God created mankind to have a relationship. Adam and Eve turned away from Him. Mary, in contrast, responded to God by saying “be it done to me according to your word”. This is the kind of relationship that God wants with all of us.
Yes, we are in agreement. Mary was perfectly conformed to th image of her Divine Son. She had a complete attitude of submission (“do whatever He tells you”). She ponders the words of the prophets in her heart. She follows Him all the way to the foot of His cross, an never leaves HIm, even in His worst suffering. This is the destiny that God wants for every Christian. Mary is our role model.
J
justasking4
Guest
Since the Scriptures are all that we know about her and Jesus and the apostles knew her best where do they teach that she “was perfectly conformed to th image of her Divine Son”?
Why don’t the Scriptures ever exhort us to follow her as she follows Christ as Paul said in I Corinthians 4:16—Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. Or John’s exhortation in I John 2:5-6 where he exhorts Christians with this –
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
There are many other references like this but not one ever uses Mary as an example to be followed in Scripture. That does not mean she lacked love for her son or that she was not courageous but the Scriptures never hold her up as an example like the catholic church does.
I’m sure i’m going to get blasted for this but i’ll be hiding under my desk ----
uch:
G
guanophore
Guest
This is not the case for us, ja4. It is the case for you, because you reject the Sacred Traditions. Catholic knowledge of the Kingdom of God is not limited to the Bible. It is your perogative to limit how much of Divine Revelation you will receive, but don’t try to restrict others!
God created her to be the perfect mother for the Son, and she was. She is the very first Christian.
This is how we understand it, when she says “do whatever He tells you”. The scriptures don’t contain the entire divine revelation. Do you think, if you were to follow Mary’s example, you would end up somewhere else besides the foot of His cross?
We see it differently. Catholics see that the Scriptures hold her up as an example. I can’t imagine a better response to God’s Word than “let it be done to me according to Thy Word.”
You are free to reject the Apostolic Teaching, ja4. What is confusing is why you berate those that wish to accept it. It is puzzling why the personal devotions of other Christians should upset you so much. It seems you just can’t “live an let live”.I’m sure i’m going to get blasted for this but i’ll be hiding under my desk ----
J
justasking4
Guest
What else is there that gives you true and supported information about her outside the NT? I would think that you are aware of a couple of gnostic works that mention her but were or are condemned by the catholic church. Surely you would not count these rejected works as “Divine Revelation”?
J
justasking4
Guest
This is not “Apostolic Teaching”. If it were we would see it in Scripture. Better to say its Roman Catholic teaching than to say its Apostolic Teaching. The 2 are not always the same.
I don’t berate anyone. I think that its vital that these things be discussed if we both claim to be followers of Christ. If you look at the writings of Paul he was adamant about the truth and refused to let false teachings in the door. All the authors of the NT were like this. That’s why i spend time here discussing these matters.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, but the Gnostic teachings were instrumental in defining Marian doctrines, so God used them to make HIs Revelation more clear. All the Marian doctrines come from the nature of Jesus, and the Gnostics sharpened the Church on these.
I think a better source are the prayers and Liturgies of the early church. The Apostles Creed is one.
Not everything that Jesus and the Apostles taught is found in scripture, ja4. It is not “Roman” either. I think if you were to study the non-Roman Rites and Orthodox, you will find these Apostolic teachings were present long before the Roman Rite even emerged.
Be honest, ja4, you do berate. You also have already admitted that you are not here to discuss, but to make converts. Any review of your posts makes this clear. You consistently state that “all we know is in the Scriptures”. This is a way of berating Sacred Tradition. You have also recently stated that your royal “we” that you use refers to “true Christians”, by which you mean to imply that Catholics are not “true Christians” since Catholics are not part of the “we” that espouse only the Bible.
It seems, according to your posts, that things are way beyond the door. You have stated repeatedly that “false teachings have crept into the Catholic Church” and that the Catholic Church has errors" etc, etc. It is interesting that you seem to feel personally appointed to the ministry of debunking what you believe are “false teachings” in the Catholic Church. It seems to speak of a considerable degree of hubris, that you, personally, could reverse 2000 years of Catholic Teaching. How powerful you must feel!
T
t68ware
Guest
Your venom to non-Catholics has got to end. You just cannot accept we Protestants believe differently than you, and for that, you name call and are just rude. Your posts have been reported to the moderator as being way over the line when it comes to being cordial to other people and being tolerant. I am sorry we Protestants bother you so much but you are one rude individual.
M
mlchance
Guest
You didn’t answer my question: By the Blessed Virgin’s submission to God’s will, who was born to defeat death?
– Mark L. Chance.
- Status