Do we as Catholics worship Mary

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More of the picture comes clear… projection. Another correction for you as well… you’re not debating an ego. You’re debating love for the only Church built by Christ. You’re debating love for the Body of Christ. You’re debating love of the only Church which is protected from the gates of hell.

By the way, your church was started by man, not by God. Your church is not protected from the gates of Hell. Your church is not free from error in faith and morals (as you’ve clearly shown). It’s sad, but the Devil is pleased by your attacks on the Church built by Christ.
I believe one of your own Popes stated the smoke of Satan has entered your sanctuary. Your relentless ad hominem attacks have proven you have very little knowledge and NO substantive argument. My church? And what church is that? I thought I was saved by Christ, not an institution. You seriously need to read the NT again! I love how you equate yourselves to God as an institution, great method of mind control. As far debating an ego…it seems that is all you really are…very little of anything else it seems, or you would post it, instead of the RC automaton quotes and snippets.
 
Typical non-Denominational type… if you distort God’s word, then what will keep you from distorting mine.

I did what I did decently and believe anyone who was at least halfway honest would see it as so. I have tremendous dignity, and am humbly grateful to be in the only Church with the true teachings of Christ. This is my source of pride…, it is in God.
Honest? I dare say you have no inclination of the kind in this discussion. You have been cornered by your own ego and need to try and trip the guy up, yet you have been caught in your own snare! Delightful!
 
Does “your religion” include the Book of Revelation? If it does might I suggest you give a read – check out chap. 20.
You may want to check out Romans 5 6 7 and 8. Again we believe Jesus took away death. The moment our bodies die in this world our Soul is raised. Read John Chapter 6. In all truth I tell you whoever listens to my words and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life. In all truth I tell you the hour is comming INDEED IT IS ALREADY HERE WHEN THE DEAD WILL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND ALL WHO HEAR IT WILL LIVE. THE HOUR IS COMING WHEN THE DEAD WILL LEACVE THEIR GRAVES AT THE SOULD OF HIS VOICE THOSE WHO DID GOOD WILL COME FORTH TO LIFE. Why do you think Jesus died on the cross, he freed us from death. After he died on the cross he went and freed all of the dead and gave the good eternal life.
 
You may want to check out Romans 5 6 7 and 8. Again we believe Jesus took away death. The moment our bodies die in this world our Soul is raised. Read John Chapter 6. In all truth I tell you whoever listens to my words and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life. In all truth I tell you the hour is comming INDEED IT IS ALREADY HERE WHEN THE DEAD WILL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND ALL WHO HEAR IT WILL LIVE. THE HOUR IS COMING WHEN THE DEAD WILL LEACVE THEIR GRAVES AT THE SOULD OF HIS VOICE THOSE WHO DID GOOD WILL COME FORTH TO LIFE. Why do you think Jesus died on the cross, he freed us from death. After he died on the cross he went and freed all of the dead and gave the good eternal life.
Amen!
 
I believe one of your own Popes stated the smoke of Satan has entered your sanctuary.
That was actually Fr. Malachi Martin in a statement on the Art Bell show. Fr. Martin was layizied (sp?) as well, so take it with a grain of salt. Released from his vows of poverty and obedience (yet he chose to retain his vow of celibacy) so he could persue his literary career.

The reference was about Vatican II if I recall correctly. One rogue priest’s vehement opposition to VII. Alrighty then.
 
I believe one of your own Popes stated the smoke of Satan has entered your sanctuary. Your relentless ad hominem attacks have proven you have very little knowledge and NO substantive argument. My church? And what church is that? I thought I was saved by Christ, not an institution. You seriously need to read the NT again! I love how you equate yourselves to God as an institution, great method of mind control. As far debating an ego…it seems that is all you really are…very little of anything else it seems, or you would post it, instead of the RC automaton quotes and snippets.
Your signature says you’re “Rev John” and your profile says your non-Denom… and you ask me what church???

I uphold the truth, which means denying lies, like the ones you promote.

Do you even understand what it means regarding the smoke of Satan? Please answer whether this is the same to you as the gates of hell prevailing? Here’s a clue… it is not. Satan loves to try to infiltrate the Catholic Church, because he knows who his enemy is. Satan also knows who does his work for him, and it is those who ignorantly attack the only Church built by Christ, the Body of Christ, which do the work of Satan.

We Catholics are saved by Christ, who is the the Way, Truth and Life. If one believes falsely in “Sola Fide” and “Once Saved, always saved,” then one doesn’t see the need for the Sacraments that were instituted, including the Confession and the Holy Eucharist, which is the true and real Body and Blood of Christ, just like He told us.

I love the NT, because I can read the entire Scriptures and don’t have to skip over any parts that would disavow non-Denominationals’ beliefs. We Catholics believe in the entire Word of God. Non-Denominationals misinterpret and and their beliefs are found to be at odds with God’s Holy Word.

If you read the NT, and don’t skip over the parts that disagree with your beliefs, you’ll see that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. You’ll also see that the Church was built by Christ.

If you know the Bible, and where it came from, you’ll also admit that the Church came before the Bible. The Sacred Scriptures were written by Holy Spirit inspired Catholics, for Catholics, and the Scriptures assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church. By your agreement with the books in the NT, you agree that the correct Scriptures were chosen by the Catholic Church.

Once again… more ignorance… we don’t equate ourselves to God as an Institution. Please show us where we do that. You will never find that in the Catechism or any official document of the Catholic Church, because it simply is not true.

Enough refutation for you for now. It will be hard for you, but we would appreciate honest answers.
 
Your signature says you’re “Rev John” and your profile says your non-Denom… and you ask me what church???

I uphold the truth, which means denying lies, like the ones you promote. promoting truth by deception…nice try

Do you even understand what it means regarding the smoke of Satan? Please answer whether this is the same to you as the gates of hell prevailing? seeing the sad state of your clergy, I would say yes Here’s a clue… it is not.In your limited opinion Satan loves to try to infiltrate the Catholic Church, because he knows who his enemy is. Satan also knows who does his work for him, and it is those who ignorantly attack the only Church built by Christ, the Body of Christ, which do the work of Satan. Hmm, you mean work like the Inquistition, Crusades, making a scientist recant truth, sexual abuse off the charts…like that?

We Catholics are saved by Christ, who is the the only Way. If one believes falsely in “Sola Fide” and “Once Saved, always saved,” then one doesn’t see the need for the Sacraments that were instituted, including the Confession and the Holy Eucharist, which is the true and real Body and Blood of Christ, just like He told us. Christ’s sacrifice was once for all. Reread Hebrews, for goodness sake, read SOMETHING!

I love the NT, because I can read the entire Scriptures and don’t have to skip over any parts that would disavow non-Denominationals’ beliefs. We Catholics believe in the entire Word of God. Non-Denominationals misinterpret and and their beliefs are found to be at odds with God’s Holy Word. Thats funny coming from someone whose papacy is built primarily from one verse. Will you EVER be ablel to answer my repeated question of Peter not being the head of Jerusalem?

If you read the NT, and don’t skip over the parts that disagree with your beliefs, you’ll see that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. You’ll also see that the Church was built by Christ. I see a church,yes. His Church, yes, now is that the same as yours? Debatable

If you know the Bible, and where it came from, you’ll also admit that the Church came before the Bible. Yes, which is all the more reason that the Scriptures should line up much better with your teachings…funny that it doesnt The Sacred Scriptures were written by Holy Spirit inspired Catholics, for Catholics, and the Scriptures assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church.Yes, by Constantine By your agreement with the books in the NT, you agree that the correct Scriptures were chosen by the Catholic Church.

Once again… more ignorance… we don’t equate ourselves to God as an Institution. Please show us where we do thatReread your own statements. You will never find that in the Catechism or any official document of the Catholic Church, because it simply is not true.

Enough refutation for you for now. It will be hard for you, but we would appreciate honest answers.
Still waiting for specifics as to where I misquoted teachings.
 
There is substance, but the fact that you reject it is clearly evident. The refutations are done directly of the original post, with which you gave your stamp of approval. In this way, I refute both of your misinterpretation. If you reject true teachings of Sacred Scripture, then you certainly won’t like what I have to say, because they uphold and confirm the true teachings of Scripture. Honestly, the only thing you have shown that you believe are substantial are lies and distortion of God’s Holy Word, and denials of the truth. In that case, you’ll never see it. You have to open your eyes and accept the truth… which would lead invariably to Catholicism.
Been there done that. I am your worst nightmare…a former Catholic who knows the facts.
 
Honest? I dare say you have no inclination of the kind in this discussion. You have been cornered by your own ego and need to try and trip the guy up, yet you have been caught in your own snare! Delightful!
I’d also be honest, when I say you are cooperating with Satan in His work against the only Church built by Christ. I don’t believe that you do this knowingly or will full comprehension, but nevertheless, you seem to delight in this as well. It’s pretty clear you don’t know what you’re really doing, and I’d also say that you don’t know what you are saying.
 
I’d also be honest, when I say you are cooperating with Satan in His work against the only Church built by Christ. I don’t believe that you do this knowingly or will full comprehension, but nevertheless, you seem to delight in this as well. It’s pretty clear you don’t know what you’re really doing, and I’d also say that you don’t know what you are saying.
Ah, I was waitng for the “I’m of the devil” MO that you all use when cornered by your own facts and logic. This has also gone way off topic. Look, dont worry,stay in your mind control, stay asleep. I have no desire to "convert"you or anyone else. I have found my way, you must do that for yourself.
 
The bottom line is Marian theology as presented by the RCC is wrought from poor exegesis. Hey, no one is perfect right? Well except God, right? Ahh, herein lies the paradox, in the RCC view no one is perfect unless you’re God or of course the Pope (at least in terms of dogma and doctrine).

So when a Pope utters a sentence it becomes impossible to redact, or else the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Here’s some exegesis, a little more on point:

We know Mary needed saving because no one sees the Father except through Christ (with no exceptions) – even Catholic dogma does not deny this. Somehow this fact isn’t followed to its logical conclusion. That is, what do we need saving from? The answer of course is sin.

So then what should be the role of Mary? If it is partner then is that role more analogous to the mother of David, the queen mother of Israel? Or as partner to Christ as Eve was to Adam? There’s a marked difference between these two depictions. The first keeps the role of Mary in a temporal context, while the latter creates a role as a mediatrix or co-redeemer. Drawing a parallel between Mary and the mother of David negates the idea queen of heaven, while the depiction Mary, as the New Eve does not.

Look at 1 Timothy 2:8-15. The split we see here is that no longer is the woman saved by her connection to the man, but rather through child rearing. No longer can her relevance be framed as bride, but as mother (in the economy of salvation). Adam allowed himself to be swayed by the woman, while Christ overcame the infirmities of the flesh inherited by his mother. When we keep the focus on Christ as sole redeemer the exegesis is clear. Mary describes herself as a bondservant, a depiction formerly associated with Hagar. Elizabeth is old and barren (as was Sarah) but still becomes pregnant with John the Baptist (the new Elijah). So the typology of Mary as Eve, and helper is fallacious. Rather the proper role of Mary is as bondservant. This role negates any notion of mediatrix or co-redeemer when understood properly.

Another important fact is why Mary was in a unique position to mother the Messiah. Joseph enjoyed kinship in the Davidic line, however, he was a descendant of Jehoiakim (who was a king of Israel cursed by God for burning a scroll written by Jeremiah). The curse was that none of his children would sit on the throne of David. Mary was also a descendant of David; however, legal title passes through the line of the father, while blood relation is passed down maternally (under Jewish law). So we see the uniqueness of the marriage between Joseph and Mary, which of course was a divine design. Joseph could pass legal title to the throne of David, but due to the curse could not pass blood title. Mary could offer blood lineage but could not pass legal title.

Through Mary Jesus inherited a blood or “flesh” identity as Israel. Jesus embodied both Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise (as fulfillment of that promise). He came to make the two one by destroying with His flesh the law (a sign of the Old Covenant). We learn this in Ephesians 2:14-15. Making from the two one new man (referring to Jacob & Esau, as representative of the Israel of the flesh & of the promise). The older shall serve the younger (see Romans 9:12, Genesis 25:23).

When we look at Rev. 12 we see the same dichotomy. In Rev. 12:1 we see “the woman” (Mary) clothed with the sun . . . and a crown of twelve stars on her head (representing the twelve tribes of Israel). Now turn to Rev. 21:23, the “city” (who Paul at Galatians 4:26 describes as “our mother”) does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because it is illuminated by the glory of God. The city (the New Jerusalem) is also depicted as the “bride of the Lamb” in Rev. 21:9 (of course the Lamb is Christ).

Here we see the disengagement between the “Israel of the promise” and the “Israel of the flesh.” The bondservant, Mary, as Hagar represents the children of the flesh. She is depicted as a queen mother, however, her queenship is not of heaven, but rather of Israel. Not Israel of the promise, but rather Israel of the flesh (as was the mother of king David).

We see further evidence of this distinction in Galatians 4. When Paul describes Christ as the “New Adam” he is referring to the resurrected Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:45). Mary just as the Apostles failed to understand the constant references Christ made to His impending death and resurrection until He was actually resurrected. As it tells us in Matthew 12, it is not Jesus’ earthly family who will counted as His mother, brothers, or sisters; but rather the faithful, yet another indication of the disengagement I’m referring to. We also see this at the wedding ceremony in Cana, where Mary is concerned with the temporal needs of the wedding guests for more wine, while Christ is concerned with something completely different.

What happens when we juxtapose the role of Mary into a “queen of heaven”? Check out Jeremiah 7:18.
Ok, so you presented all that in response to my post without addressing my post at all. This is called a strawman arguement.

In that you presented what you think is Catholic belief and attacked that, instead of representing truth you represented a misrepresentation. We all know who the father of lies is, so please, be very careful how you respond.

How do Catholics worship Mary? Please do use a strawman arguement again and answer this.
Then, describe Catholic worship. (I will give you a hint, Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) This will prove your dishonesty or false understanding of Catholicism.

You presented a thought that seems to say that Catholics worship in the same way pagans worshipped other Gods, which is not what Catholics do. Please be honest in your objection to Catholicism.

In Christ
Scylla
 
Been there done that. I am your worst nightmare…a former Catholic who knows the facts.
This is rich! You haven’t represented the correct Catholic beliefs on this board, and then make a statement like this. No wonder you left. No one who truly understands the Catholic teachings, and who truly loves God would ever leave the Church. It’s like St. Peter said to Christ about Him… where else would we go? In this case, we have the correct teachings of everlasting life, and His real and true presence in the Eucharist.

A nightmare would be waking up one morning, and finding out that one had left the only Church that Christ built… and left it for false teachings. After this, there is a possibility, though that the dream of being Catholic could still be achieved by coming back.
 
Been there done that. I am your worst nightmare…a former Catholic who knows the facts.
Sorry man, I’ve seen no evidence of that so far. It appears as if you actually don’t know very much at all about Catholicism. Funny how many ex-Catholics think themselves experts in a faith that they never truly lived, never truly studied.

Interesting thread.
 
Sorry man, I’ve seen no evidence of that so far. It appears as if you actually don’t know very much at all about Catholicism. Funny how many ex-Catholics think themselves experts in a faith that they never truly lived, never truly studied.

Interesting thread.
Is that right? Where have I been in error? Teach me then, point it out to me. Since you have no idea of what I truly lived or truly studied, it is just another assumption you need to use to stroke your own ego. I beg you though, if you want a discussion, have real stuff an no fluff.
 
This is rich! You haven’t represented the correct Catholic beliefs on this board, and then make a statement like this. No wonder you left. No one who truly understands the Catholic teachings, and who truly loves God would ever leave the Church. Sure they do, when they see the truth. For goodness sake, stop talking in generalities It’s like St. Peter said to Christ about Him… where else would we go?I believe Peter said that to Christ, not a Pope, therefore, where am I in error? In this case, we have the correct teachings of everlasting life, and His real and true presence in the Eucharist.

A nightmare would be waking up one morning, and finding out that one had left the only Church that Christ built… and left it for false teachings. After this, there is a possibility, though that the dream of being Catholic could still be achieved by coming back.or even worse, finding out that you have been a victim of mind control all this time
And I am STILL waiting for my misquotes to be pointed out specfically. Sincethis is I believe the third request, it must mean you are blowing smoke yet again
 
Ah, I was waitng for the “I’m of the devil” MO that you all use when cornered by your own facts and logic. This has also gone way off topic. Look, dont worry,stay in your mind control, stay asleep. I have no desire to "convert"you or anyone else. I have found my way, you must do that for yourself.
Once again, you misquote. I didn’t say you were of the Devil, I said you were doing his work, probably unwittingly.

I enjoy the freedom that the truth brings. I am free, because of the truth, and feel the fullness of freedom in the Catholic Church.

I don’t have to try and spew distortions about the Church and it’s members in massive quantities. You are very prolific in spewing of garbage and libeling that which you don’t like. When one deals in truth, they are more judicious.

Yes, you have found your way… and it’s away from Christ. How can you be close to someone you don’t know? Answer is that you really can’t. You also denigrate His Church and promote lies about his mother, who is also our mother.
 
Is that right? Where have I been in error? Teach me then, point it out to me. Since you have no idea of what I truly lived or truly studied, it is just another assumption you need to use to stroke your own ego. I beg you though, if you want a discussion, have real stuff an no fluff.
The evidence is in the your posts. Whatever you were, it was clearly uninformed.

You have absolutely no interest in answers.

Have a pleasant evening.
 
Is that right? Where have I been in error? Teach me then, point it out to me.
On another thread you trotted out the old, long-debunked fundamentalist canard about Peter’s name, saying that Jesus used the Greek word “petros” because he meant to say “little stone.” I was genuinely embarrassed for you at that point. :o
 
Once again, you misquote. I didn’t say you were of the Devil, I said you were doing his work, probably unwittingly.

I enjoy the freedom that the truth brings. I am free, because of the truth, and feel the fullness of freedom in the Catholic Church.

I don’t have to try and spew distortions about the Church and it’s members in massive quantities. FOURTH attempt to ask you to prove that SPECIFICALLY You are very prolific in spewing of garbage and libeling that which you don’t like. When one deals in truth, they are more judicious.

Yes, you have found your way… and it’s away from ChristNo, I believe it was away from the RCC. And you dare ask when do you equate the institution with God? Well, here you go. How can you be close to someone you don’t know? Answer is that you really can’t. You also denigrate His Church and promote lies about his mother, who is also our mother.Where SPECIFICALLY have I lied about His Mother? Are you even coherent?
 
On another thread you trotted out the old, long-debunked fundamentalist canard about Peter’s name, saying that Jesus used the Greek word “petros” because he meant to say “little stone.” I was genuinely embarrassed for you at that point. :o
Since it was not an error, perhaps you need to do some research yourself, especially between the words petros and petra. I am embarrassed for your lack of knowledge.
 
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