Do we as Catholics worship Mary

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allhers said:
I’m thinking that you probably even don’t know the proper way that is used either. You are probably thinking that means that we think that she is equal to, don’t you?😃
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equal to, slightly lesser than, doesn’t matter how many degrees of separation you place between Mary & Christ – you guys just don’t get the point. There is no role for Mary as co-redeemer, mediatrix, or queen of heaven, period.

One bad doctrine begets another. A Pope, who I’m sure was a great guy, uttered a sentence one day in support of Marian veneration & whalla it’s now the infallible proclamation of Rome, never to be redacted, no possibility of an admission of error, and so we have it … the slippery slope winds its way into crowing a fictional queen of heaven.

I’ve posted strong exegesis and have yet to hear anyone actually try and rebut my reasoning. You dig for catechisms rather than simply looking in your Bible. You think longevity is somehow indicative of integrity, yet the Jewish nation existed for over 3,000 years before Christ, and in one day the entire paradigm changed forever. I pray God will lift the blinders from the eyes of those who cannot see. Through CHRIST my only Savior, my only mediator, and my only redeemer I pray, Amen!
 
:yawn:
Still waiting for thecoach to answer for himself, but I guess he has to go look some stuff up since he can’t just say off the top of his head what he believes.
…or maybe he’s got to go find some things about all those theologians he referred to.
Maybe I’ll see his answer tomorrow.😃
 
sola_scriptura said:
equal to, slightly lesser than, doesn’t matter how many degrees of separation you place between Mary & Christ – you guys just don’t get the point. There is no role for Mary as co-redeemer, mediatrix, or queen of heaven, period.

One bad doctrine begets another. A Pope, who I’m sure was a great guy, uttered a sentence one day in support of Marian veneration & whalla it’s now the infallible proclamation of Rome, never to be redacted, no possibility of an admission of error, and so we have it … the slippery slope winds its way into crowing a fictional queen of heaven.

I’ve posted strong exegesis and have yet to hear anyone actually try and rebut my reasoning. You dig for catechisms rather than simply looking in your Bible. You think longevity is somehow indicative of integrity, yet the Jewish nation existed for over 3,000 years before Christ, and in one day the entire paradigm changed forever. I pray God will lift the blinders from the eyes of those who cannot see. Through CHRIST my only Savior, my only mediator, and my only redeemer I pray, Amen!
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Nice guess, but wrong. I’ll pray for you too.
Perhaps you ought to read our Catechism, most of the footnotes refer to the Bible, but hey, why would you know anything about the Catholic Church, right?
Oh, and just for the record, I’ll ask the Bessed Mother’s intercession to open your eyes to the Truth, at least you know His Name is Jesus and that He is our only Saviour, mediator and redeemer!!!👍
I will pray that you will come to know and love His Mother too and that we all would do well to model ourselves on her. Afterall, she is probably the one who taught Him to pray to God, the Father when He was a tiny little boy, as I have heard that Jewish women were the one’s who taught their children to pray. I am sure Jesus prayed with her His entire earthly life and now still in Heaven.
 
Why try and model Mary when we are supposed to be becoming Christlike as Christians?

I find it interesting that you’d rather be like His mother. Speaks volumes in terms of the argument of the thread I think.
 
thecoach said:
By insinuation…since I have spoken only against the RC and not against God at all…
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By rejecting Christ’s Church and His mother, you are rejecting God’s will. You have forsaken Him in favor of man-made, “feel good” doctrines. You make me very sad.
 
myredeemerlives said:
Why try and model Mary when we are supposed to be becoming Christlike as Christians?

I find it interesting that you’d rather be like His mother. Speaks volumes in terms of the argument of the thread I think.
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Absolutely…they sometime dont even realize how out of proportion they do things. Honor Mary, yes of course we should, but perhaps do it in proportion to the amount its done in Scripture.
 
ibkc said:
By rejecting Christ’s Church and His mother, you are rejecting God’s will. You have forsaken Him in favor of man-made, “feel good” doctrines. You make me very sad.
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No, what is sd is that you STILL equate an institution with God and His will. Sad and blind. Dear one, I feel your sincerety and pray you awaken to God. It is not I that go after what is man-made, but you.
 
thecoach said:
No, what is sd is that you STILL equate an institution with God and His will. Sad and blind. Dear one, I feel your sincerety and pray you awaken to God.
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I am awake to God and to all that He requires of us. I do appreciate the prayers, but they would be better spent on a non-Christian.
 
myredeemerlives said:
Why try and model Mary when we are supposed to be becoming Christlike as Christians?

I find it interesting that you’d rather be like His mother. Speaks volumes in terms of the argument of the thread I think.
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Well I guess you figure it speaks volumes about the NT, as well:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
2 Thessalonians 3:7, 9
For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,…not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

According to your logic, Paul and the author of Hebrews shouldnot have written what they did, instead only telling us to imitate Christ.
 
sola_scriptura said:
equal to, slightly lesser than, doesn’t matter how many degrees of separation you place between Mary & Christ – you guys just don’t get the point. There is no role for Mary as co-redeemer, mediatrix, or queen of heaven, period.
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What is meant by “co-redeemer”? (please, for only SS to answer!)
 
allhers said:
Oh no you don’t buddy, you tell me what **you **think it means.

While you’re at it, you want to name some of those theologians you speak of, or give us some links to what they say in defense of what you say they are saying?
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Typical…you make the accusation but then cant back it up.
 
myredeemerlives said:
Maybe historical evidence can help provide some answers…

“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: “To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for: man’s salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ.”

Paul VI, Christi Matri. “The Church … been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary … For as St. Irenaeus says, she ‘has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race”

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: “For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Arc: “In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us.”

Want a more recent Pope?

We can truly say that the Marian dimension in the Catholic magisterium and apostolate has never been stronger than now, in the pontificate of Pope John Paul II. No other Pope has made so many pilgrimages to Marian sanctuaries throughout the world.

"Before John Paul II no Pope had devoted as much space and emphasis to Mary in both catechesis and liturgy. No other Pope has consecrated so many countries and continents to her care. In fact, after he recovered from the assassination attempt upon his life (May 13, 1981), John Paul II, following the indications of Our Lady of Fatima, dedicated the world of our times to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (March 25, 1984).

For more google his sermons on Mary.
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and THAT is exactly the problem. You see nothing bordering on equation with God in a statement like, "“In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us.” or "“For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” This second one borders on blasphemous. Where is Scripture is there anything even remotely like this?
 
sola_scriptura said:
equal to, slightly lesser than, doesn’t matter how many degrees of separation you place between Mary & Christ – you guys just don’t get the point. There is no role for Mary as co-redeemer, mediatrix, or queen of heaven, period.

One bad doctrine begets another. A Pope, who I’m sure was a great guy, uttered a sentence one day in support of Marian veneration & whalla it’s now the infallible proclamation of Rome, never to be redacted, no possibility of an admission of error, and so we have it … the slippery slope winds its way into crowing a fictional queen of heaven.

I’ve posted strong exegesis and have yet to hear anyone actually try and rebut my reasoning. You dig for catechisms rather than simply looking in your Bible. You think longevity is somehow indicative of integrity, yet the Jewish nation existed for over 3,000 years before Christ, and in one day the entire paradigm changed forever. I pray God will lift the blinders from the eyes of those who cannot see. Through CHRIST my only Savior, my only mediator, and my only redeemer I pray, Amen!
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AMEN!
 
thecoach said:
"“In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us.”
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According to you, from whom does every grace and blessing come to us?
thecoach said:
"“For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
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Again, according to you, who holds the treasury of all good things; from whom does every hope, every grace and all salvation - everything! - come?
 
cfrancis said:
According to you, from whom does every grace and blessing come to us?

Again, according to you, who holds the treasury of all good things; from whom does every hope, every grace and all salvation - everything! - come?
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The answer to both question should be easy for any Christian…GOD and GOD ALONE!!! To say anything else is blasphemy.
 
thecoach said:
The answer to both question should be easy for any Christian…GOD and GOD ALONE!!! To say anything else is blasphemy.
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We agree on that - but more specifically, do you believe they all flow from Jesus Christ?
 
This thread is starting to sound like a Bill Clinton argument…“Can you define the word ‘is’?”
 
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