Do we believe in literal Transubstantiation

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tsun
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tsun

Guest
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
 
I firmly believe, as does the Catholic Church, that the Eucharist is the full Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Risen Christ.

It is Christ Himself under the appearance of bread and wine.
 
The Eucharist is Jesus Christ in his entirety under the appearances of bread and wine. He is wholly present, body & blood, soul and divinity, His entire person, in the Eucharist. This doctrine was never even questioned for the first 1,500 years of the Church’s history, since it was taught by Jesus himself.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
Do you believe that God created all that is from nothing? That he became incarnate? That he laid down his life and took it up again after three days?

Why would it be difficult, then, for God to confect the Eucharist through is priests in order to give us what he promised, his Body and Blood?

And what does being a “21st century man” have to do with anything?
 
Yes, the transubstantiation really happens. It never fails to amaze me that there are Catholics who do not know this as it is central to our faith and spiritual lives, but you are not alone in somehow missing it. It is evidence of the grossest possible failure in Catholic catechesis.

As to how the priest does it, really it is God who does the transubstantiation. Where there was once bread and wine, God causes it to be that Jesus Christ is present in all his physical and spiritual unity, though under the sensory appearances of bread and wine.

I’m not sure what the century we happen to be in has to do with the question, except that for roughly the last two centuries there have been strong philosophical currents in the secular world saying either that nothing can be known except what our senses tell us or that how something appears to our senses is the very definition of that thing. This is bad philosophy, actually more typical of the 19th century than the 21st, and is incompatible with authentic reason or faith.
 
Transubstantiation isn’t about a consensus. It is about truth or non-truth. We as Catholics firmly believe in the physical transformation of bread and wine into the actual flesh and blood of our risen Lord.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
The priest is in “persona Christi” which means that when he speaks the words of consecration he is acting in the person of Christ. Now unless you believe that Christ does not have the power to do this then you must follow suit with what has been known by Christians since the Last Supper when Christ commanded us to do this.

A consensus would be split without contrast… A Catholic will believe this because he or she believes the Lord’s words in John 6 and the Last Supper accounts and a Protestant will say, as did some in John 6, this saying is hard. Who can accept it?

First century, twenty first century and until the end of time this holds objectively true since it comes from God Himself and is not open for debate…God bless…teachccd 🙂
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
I believe what the Church teaches, because the Church was given to us by God to teach us our faith. 🙂

It doesn’t matter what century we live in - time was passing at the same rate in the First Century, too, when Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and made it possible for us to be saved.

In any Sacrifice, though, in order to receive the benefits of that Sacrifice, you must eat a portion of it. That’s why when Jesus died on the Cross as the Sacrifice for our sins, we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to be made partakers in the Cross, and become forgiven of our sins.
 
Understanding this doctrine as a 21st century man is not much different as trying to understand it as a 1st century man, as a reading of the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John indicates. But, Jesus meant what he said.
 
Tsun;

As a 21st century man, (which we all are also by the way), you judge rightly by your senses. Your senses tell you that something must be what it is because of your experience as a creature that senses, identifies then judges for that something to conform to your prior definition. So you taste, smell, feel, see and hear the “crack” of the bread breaking and you judge in your mind “must be bread”. So I would say by your senses you judge rightly.

On the other hand, have you ever been outside on a cloudy day and received a sunburn? Your senses deceive you in this case because if you didn’t see or feel the hot rays of the sun, you would naturally think you are protected. However the ultraviolet light, which is undetectable to the human eye, is clearly there and manifests itself in the form of a sunburn on your skin. But as a sensible creature, you must object! This can’t be so - I cannot be burned because I couldn’t sense it - but yet… there is this burn to deal with. Ultraviolet light is there and has immense power, and yet our senses don’t pick it up. This is true of many things in nature, and is still yet an imperfect explanation, yet it shows how silly it is for us to rely on our limited creaturely experience.

But the Eucharist goes beyond this even to the point that the bread and wine are “transformed” into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. If you think about it, the fact that they maintain the “accidents” of bread and wine (that is, the sensory stuff) is actually a gift to us. I don’t think we would enjoy the accidents of human flesh and blood, and that’s my theory as to why these accidents remain. Its certainly a more loving thing to do it this way, which is God’s way. He wanted the perfect combination of having us receive him and become part of him through the Eucharistic celebration, but in a sensual way that would be realistic to achieve throughout the centuries. But rest assured and pray to understand, He is truly present in all four forms.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
Yes, the church teaches a in “literal transubstantiation”, and every Catholic is obligated to believe this.

However, the use of this term is important - it is different than a “transformation”. The bread does not take on the characteristics of human flesh. Rather, it is wholly replaced by the substance of God Himself. As God has no physical attributes, he chooses to retain the physical attributes (called “accidents”) of the original bread.

As Christ is both human and divine, it is also the Body and Blood of Christ, because Christ cannot be divided. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord.

It is not by the power of the priest that this is done, but, again, by the power of Christ working through the sacrament of holy orders in the Priest.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
You have read what everyone else said. I can’t add much else other than to say that using the word “literally” sometimes distracts people from “reality”. Don’t get caught up in word games.

Christ is really and truly present in a physical way under the appearances of bread and wine.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
It’s absolutely literal, and it’s not illogical. Can you think of any reason why the God who loved the universe into being, with all of its rules and everything, couldn’t give a priest the ability to transform bread and wine into the body and blood of Chist?
 


In February 2008, the **Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) **
at Georgetown University surveyed 1,007 self-identified adult Catholics in the United States from Knowledge Networks’ large national panel of households, which is assembled by regular random telephone survey methods (probability sampling). The primary focus of the survey is participation in the sacramental life of the Church as well as beliefs about the sacraments. The poll also addresses many other issues of importance to the Church, including other forms of participation in Church life and other teachings of Catholicism. A survey with this number of respondents has a margin of sampling error of ±3.1 percentage points. As a rule of thumb, every 1 percentage point of the total adult Catholic population is equivalent to approximately 500,000 persons. This survey is one of CARA’s most recent 20 national surveys of self-identified adult Catholics, including more than 21,000 respondents, conducted since 2000. Comparisons, where possible, are made to these earlier surveys in the report. The Department of Communications of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) commissioned CARA to conduct this survey. The following are the primary topic areas of the survey:

Belief in the Real Presence

About** six in ten Catholics (57 percent) agree that Jesus Christ is really present in the
bread and wine of the Eucharist.**

Which of the following statements best agrees with
your belief about the Eucharist/Holy Communion?

Jesus Christ is really present in the bread and
wine of the Eucharist.** (2001=63%) (2008=57%)**

Bread and wine are symbols of Jesus, but
Jesus is not really present. (2001=37%) (2008=43%)
Differences by Mass Attendance
Nine in ten weekly Mass attendees (91 percent) say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist,

…compared to two-thirds of those who attend Mass less than weekly but at least once a month (65 percent), and four in ten of those attending Mass a few times a year or
less (40 percent)
.

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html




So, the key is…not intellectual…not feelings…not catechesis…the key is simply keep going to Mass faithfully…weekly as you are doing…act as if you believe in the Real Presence…and you will (receive the grace of faith)…and come to believe in the Real Presence…Transubstantiation.

Its somewhat akin to loving your neighbor…and you just cant bring yourself to do it…C.S. Lewis has the key…
“Do not waste time bothering whether you “love” your neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone you will presently come to love him.”
whatchristianswanttoknow.com/22-awesome-c-s-lewis-quotes/
Lastly…the perfect prayer…
Mark 9:23-25
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSV-CE)
23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can!** All things are possible to him who believe**s.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out[a] and said, “I believe; help my unbelief".” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again.”
Pax Christi
 
Absolutely, I believe in the literal Transubstantiation - the substance of bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Only the accidents of bread and wine remain.
 
Growing up I logically assumed consuming the body of Christ was figurative. Now as an adult I discovered transubstantiation where one believes it’s literally the body of Christ. As 21st century man I have difficulty believing a Catholic priest has the power to allow me to literally consume the body of Christ via the Eucharistic. What is the consensus on this subject?
Logic and the consensus could be wrong.

There is a truth to the matter.
Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”
If one instead goes to Jesus and what He said on the matter, is that better than a consensus of human beings who do not know the fullness of the mystery as He does? (:yup:).

If one believes in Jesus (and therefore what He says and claims - and the claims are substantial) this becomes easier. For nothing He has said does He emphasize more.

In the sixth chapter of St. John He repeats Himself, and several times emphasizes His “difficult teaching” with more and more vehemence. Insisting that eating His flesh and drinking His blood is necessary or one has no life in them.
Red = Jesus Blue = Objections, Rejection Green = Belief, Faith
**John 6:47 ** Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum*.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."
  • Capernaum was later called cursed for its unbelief by Jesus -
Matt 11:23 And as for you, Capernaum: ‘Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.’ For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."
Those believers did not eat that flesh as one eats chicken or beef but due to their belief and faith were present at the Last Supper, when Jesus gave them His flesh to eat and blood to drink in the form of bread and wine.

None rose up from the table to correct Him with an argument about whether what He was saying was true. Or breathed a sigh of relief and said "ah yes, figuratively … symbolically … ***not actually! *** :coolinoff: **- **

Because it was the sealing of a New Covenant, and not a time to be obscure. And if this was not really fulfilling the mandate of John 6:53 - a dire imperative of Jesus’ – how DOES one do it?

Jesus told the apostles to “Do this …” and the Church has. It is an act of faith to receive it, and when one does, the Church declares “Body of Christ” to which one assents “Amen!” (Yes! So be it!).

A believer need not know all of the mystery at once, particularly since the Church itself probably doesn’t know what it will someday. But the truth of the Eucharist is established, and taught by the same Church Jesus founded and empowered to teach in His name with the authority of

Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

The Good News? We can believe, receive, and have “the peace that passes all understanding.” And “… cast our cares on Him …” and probably more. 🙂
 
It is not a symbol. It is not figurative.

***For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. *(John 6:55)

It is the Lord.

-Tim-
 
It is not a symbol. It is not figurative.

***For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. ***(John 6:55)

It is the Lord.

-Tim-
I think what you mean is that the Eucharist is not merely symbolic, right? Obviously there is much that is symbolic or figurative about the Eucharist. The separate consecration of “body” and “blood” to symbolize sacrifice, for example, and indeed the sacrifice of Christ is made really present.
 
The question is do you believe Jesus?
Jesus said “This is my body, this is my blood.” He never once said this was metaphor or symbolism.

I understand that it doesn’t make logical sense but neither does the virgin birth, or healing the blind
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top