Do we know for a fact we are saved

[kalt]

This should be rather easy. We have this from John

John was a great man, but he wasn’t God. He didn’t (and doesn’t) decide who is and isn’t saved. These great men taught Christians about salvation. They had no power to save anyone.

By dying on the cross, Jesus redeemed our sins and made salvation possible. Someone a little earlier posted some verses of the Bible that you should look at and study with an open heart and mind.

I understand that many people are very fearful of the world and even of God, and they need to have a one-way non-transferable ticket or else fall apart shaking in fear. But this isn’t how it works, according to the Bible.

You are capable of commiting sins (even serious sins) at any point in your life. If you die without repenting for any mortal sin, you many not be saved.

I don’t think it’s that mathematical, though. As the Bible says, some who say that they believe will not be saved. They may not commit sins that we notice - murder, adultery, leaving the faith - but God knows them.

There is no way around the fact that we are judged by God (see the quotes in the other post). There is no way around that we can’t know the future and that we have free will. It may be comforting to the fearful, especially those who have poor impulse control and self-discipline, to believe that their race is over. But it’s not over until it’s over, and that it isn’t over until you die.

You have eternal life because of Christ. It’s up to you (universal) to accept it. And there’s where you end the story. Unfortunately, the story goes on. You have free will. You can sin. You can turn away from God. Saying you accept today is great. But that is merely the start line.

“Keep the faith” It’s funny that so many people say this without realizing how Catholic a statement that is.

It’s through God’s grace that we have faith. It’s through God’s grace that we persist in faith. But God doesn’t force us. We are free to sin or walk away at any time.

Saying that God preserves you in your faith is true, because all grace comes from God. But that isn’t saying that God insists that you remain faithful or that He guarantees that you won’t fall away.

That may seem too scary for some, but it is the truth, according to the Bible.

 

[Bill_Pick]

John was a great man, but he wasn’t God. He didn’t (and doesn’t) decide who is and isn’t saved. These great men taught Christians about salvation. They had no power to save anyone.

By dying on the cross, Jesus redeemed our sins and made salvation possible. Someone a little earlier posted some verses of the Bible that you should look at and study with an open heart and mind.

I understand that many people are very fearful of the world and even of God, and they need to have a one-way non-transferable ticket or else fall apart shaking in fear. But this isn’t how it works, according to the Bible.

You are capable of commiting sins (even serious sins) at any point in your life. If you die without repenting for any mortal sin, you many not be saved.

I don’t think it’s that mathematical, though. As the Bible says, some who say that they believe will not be saved. They may not commit sins that we notice - murder, adultery, leaving the faith - but God knows them.

There is no way around the fact that we are judged by God (see the quotes in the other post). There is no way around that we can’t know the future and that we have free will. It may be comforting to the fearful, especially those who have poor impulse control and self-discipline, to believe that their race is over. But it’s not over until it’s over, and that it isn’t over until you die.

You have eternal life because of Christ. It’s up to you (universal) to accept it. And there’s where you end the story. Unfortunately, the story goes on. You have free will. You can sin. You can turn away from God. Saying you accept today is great. But that is merely the start line.

“Keep the faith” It’s funny that so many people say this without realizing how Catholic a statement that is.

It’s through God’s grace that we have faith. It’s through God’s grace that we persist in faith. But God doesn’t force us. We are free to sin or walk away at any time.

Saying that God preserves you in your faith is true, because all grace comes from God. But that isn’t saying that God insists that you remain faithful or that He guarantees that you won’t fall away.

That may seem too scary for some, but it is the truth, according to the Bible.

A+

 

[kalt]

And to continue with John 1

You quoted 13 3 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
and it continues
14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

It appears that our brothers (brothers in Christ, fellow Christians, believers) can commit deadly sins. Deadly sins cause death (if the person persists in them until he dies)–eternal separation from God. What you quoted proves that your opinion is mistaken. John isn’t telling you that believers are guaranteed salvation.

At any rate, this passage really wasn’t talking about salvation. It was talking about belief in Christ - believing that Christ is the Son of God and how we’re supposed to obey the commandments.

OSAS is a newer idea that isn’t supported by the Bible.

 

[Rocket_Man]

And to continue with John 1

You quoted 13 3 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
and it continues
14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

It appears that our brothers (brothers in Christ, fellow Christians, believers) can commit deadly sins. Deadly sins cause death–eternal separation from God. What you quoted proves that your opinion is mistaken. John isn’t telling you that believers are guaranteed salvation.

Why do you leave off the next verse?

18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[kalt]

Why do you leave off the next verse?

18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And what do you make of this line?

And what of the deadly sin spoken of?

I didn’t leave it off for any particular reason. There was another line or two in the chapter after this one, too. Why did you leave those off?

Editing to add the last lines

20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Children, be on your guard against idols.

Be on our guard. But why? If God preserves us from sinning so that we are guaranteed salvation at the moment we say we believe and think we are saved, what do we have to guard against? If we’re saved already, what of idols?

It’s very simple when you just let your heart and mind open up to the truth that’s on the printed page. God offers us eternal life. He doesn’t guarantee it.

God is not a liar. The offer was made and is always good. It’s up to us to accept the offer and stick with the program - the earlier part of the chapter that talks about Jesus being the Son of God and of the commandments.

God doesn’t rescind the offer, but we can change our minds at any time.

 

[Rocket_Man]

And what do you make of this line?

And what of the deadly sin spoken of?

I didn’t leave it off for any particular reason. There was another line or two in the chapter after this one, too. Why did you leave those off?

Because when you insert “mortal sin” and “eternal separation” into 1 John 5, doesn’t it need to flow through all the chapter and not just a few verses?

 

[Rightlydivide]

God is the author of scripture. That is your church that said that so what John teaches is what God wants.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

 

[kalt]

Because when you insert “mortal sin” and “eternal separation” into 1 John 5, doesn’t it need to flow through all the chapter and not just a few verses?

I didn’t insert deadly sin. Read it again. It’s in the text.

How do you define deadly sin?

I edited my post above to finish off the chapter. We might as well talk about the whole chapter and not just one line taken out of context.

 

[kalt]

God is the author of scripture. That is your church that said that so what John teaches is what God wants.

Can you rephrase the 2nd sentence? I’ll answer whatever the accusation is, but as written it doesn’t make sense. I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.

 

[Rightlydivide]

When John says you can know, it IS God saying you can know. The Catholic Church teaches that God is the author of scripture. I hope that clarifies. My apology. I am typing too fast.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I didn’t insert deadly sin. Read it again. It’s in the text.

How do you define deadly sin?

I edited my post above to finish off the chapter. We might as well talk about the whole chapter and not just one line taken out of context.

Sure, before we come to 1 John 5:16, the author is speaking of “sin” as continuous pattern, the way of one who is lead by the flesh and without Christ. Having been born of God, I am not one of those who are bent towards serving sin as master because Christ is my new master.

Because I am confident in my salvation and having been born of God, (1 John 5:13-14) when I come to 1 John 5:16, I can have assurance that God will hear my prayers when I ask Him to forgive the sins and heal those who have fallen sick as a result of their sin.

It is similar to James 5, where James says:

“Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.”

Then we come to 1 John 5:18 and the author once again reassures us again that one born of God does not pursue a life pleasing sin.

Mark 2:4-12
4And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

 

[kalt]

You’re still not addressing the deadly sin issue. Do you think that it doesn’t apply to you?

How do you define deadly sin?

You say that you can’t commit a deadly sin, because you are saved. Where in the Bible does it say that you are already saved? Where does the Bible say that a believer can’t fall into deadly sin? The passages you’ve quoted are proof against your claim.

What of the warning about idols. The author was writing to believers, and in your interpretation, that means he was writing to those who are already saved. Why would the author warn the saved about idols?

And, again, what of deadly sin? What is deadly sin?

Are you really saying that you are incapable of commiting a deadly sin?

The author also says that whatever you ask for in prayer will be yours. How do you understand that line?

 

[kalt]

When John says you can know, it IS God saying you can know. The Catholic Church teaches that God is the author of scripture. I hope that clarifies. My apology. I am typing too fast.

Right. But John isn’t saying that you are definitely saved. John can’t say that, because it’s not up to him.

If salvation is guaranteed to those who say they believe, and who believe they are saved, there would be no reason to talk to the believers (saved) about sin, especially deadly sin and of following the commandments.

The Bible doesn’t only say that someone can tell that your are a Christian by the way you behave, it tells you how you have to behave to be a Christian. It’s obvious that good behavior is something that people have to work on their whole lives.

Even according to the passages quoted here, it’s clear that some believers (some of those you would call saved) will fall into deadly sin.

What is the price of deadly sin?

 

[SteveVH]

God is the author of scripture. That is your church that said that so what John teaches is what God wants.

I agree that we cannot attribute scripture verses to the individual who wrote them as if this is their personal opinion. They were writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit so that it is the word of God.

One thing that I think needs to be made clear here is that Catholics do not live in fear as if they have no idea whether or not they will be saved until the end. We can live in confidence that we will be saved if we “do His will” and remain free from mortal sin. The point is that we are free to sin until we die; you do not become a robot once you have given your life to Christ. We must persevere until the end, as St. Paul tells us. That is why it is “presumptuous” to assume that you are saved because you asked Jesus to be your Lord and Savior at 2:37 P.M. on September 3, 1997. You have the rest of your life to turn from God and I have known those who have done just that. Jesus is trustworthy and will never leave you, but, because of our free will He will not stop you from turning away and leaving Him.

 

[crazzeto]

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13

drbo.org/chapter/47025.htm

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Assuming that there are in fact, “saved” christians who are refusing to help the poor (I know many personally), visit the sick, or engage in any other work of corperal mercy Christ highlights here… How is it they end up in hell?

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

But you don’t seem to realize that the thief wasn’t saved because he said he was, but because He said he was. And this judgement was made at the man’s death. The judgement wasn’t the man’s opinion of his own faith. The judgement was God’s.

We’ll all be judged at our deaths–not before.

I think those who say that they are saved should be saying, “In my opinion, I am saved.” There is no way that they know God’s opinion/judgement. And how could they know it before it happens, anyway? (Knowing that though God knows all, we live in earthly time and can’t know the future.) You (universal) are going to be judged at death. If God is going to judge you at your death, how is it that you (universal) are judge today?

I’ve encountered “judges” who are hard on others - they seem to know who is and isn’t a “true” Christian. But I’ve yet to meet a “judge” who says that he’s not saved.

I hear what you’re saying. But I myself can’t put the Lord on the same level as human judges. My God is a loving God, not a God sitting on a hill with a magnifying glass trying to burn us, do you know what I mean? God loves us just as much as he loves the thief on the cross. We’re all thiefs. There is nothing we can do but depend on His eternal love for us. Of course this is my opinion - it’s all it can ever be until we stand before Him and are judged. I’m sure the folks that were in ear shot of that conversation with the Lord and the thief were like, Huh, did Jesus just tell that thief that he’s going to be in paradise? Really? That’s not fair because, “I fast, I pray, I’m good, I go to church everyday, I pay my bills on time, I went to Catholic church my entire life, I went to Protestant church my entire life, I fed the poor, I gave money, I (fill in the blank).” It’s all good, but the Lord sees much more…he sees our intentions and knows our heart. Maybe the thief stole to feed his children, maybe he didn’t pay his taxes, or lied about working overtime to get extra money to feed the poor. All are not the right thing to do, but the Lord saw his heart. We judge with our eyes and ears, the Lord…not so much. He judges in a way no human judge ever will understand.

God is THAT good, and that great, and that merciful, and that loving, and that gracious, and that compassionate.

Thanks for reading.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great point! Insightful…

But you don’t seem to realize that the thief wasn’t saved because he said he was, but because He said he was. And this judgement was made at the man’s death. The judgement wasn’t the man’s opinion of his own faith. The judgement was God’s.

We’ll all be judged at our deaths–not before.

I think those who say that they are saved should be saying, “In my opinion, I am saved.” There is no way that they know God’s opinion/judgement. And how could they know it before it happens, anyway? (Knowing that though God knows all, we live in earthly time and can’t know the future.) You (universal) are going to be judged at death. If God is going to judge you at your death, how is it that you (universal) are judge today?

I’ve encountered “judges” who are hard on others - they seem to know who is and isn’t a “true” Christian. But I’ve yet to meet a “judge” who says that he’s not saved.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You’re still not addressing the deadly sin issue. Do you think that it doesn’t apply to you?

The author wasn’t trying to stage a doctrine for mortal and venial sin. Instead he was setting the stage for us (those who were born of God) to pray for those who were sick due to sin. In this body, believers are still ruled by the universal laws of sin and death ordained by God. Same as the woman who still suffers pain during child birth. Yet, the sting of death, that is the eternal separation from God has been swallowed up in victory for the believer.

How do you define deadly sin?

It depends if your defining “deadly” as spiritual death or physical death. Denying Christ would be both physically and spiritually deadly. These persons that deny Christ remain under His wrath and are eternally condemned. Believers who commit sin earn the consequences of sin that are universally ordained including physical death but are not under God’s condemnation.

You say that you can’t commit a deadly sin, because you are saved. Where in the Bible does it say that you are already saved? Where does the Bible say that a believer can’t fall into deadly sin? The passages you’ve quoted are proof against your claim.

It is the “spiritual death” that you added which seems counter to what John has written.

What of the warning about idols. The author was writing to believers, and in your interpretation, that means he was writing to those who are already saved. Why would the author warn the saved about idols?

Because you warn your children about sin that can hurt them.

Are you really saying that you are incapable of commiting a deadly sin?

Yes, I am capable of committing all sin. But the pattern where I’m am continuously serving sin as my master was forever shattered by the work of Christ on the cross.

The author also says that whatever you ask for in prayer will be yours. How do you understand that line?

I understand it with significant qualifier “according to his will”

 

[Rocket_Man]

drbo.org/chapter/47025.htm

Assuming that there are in fact, “saved” christians who are refusing to help the poor (I know many personally), visit the sick, or engage in any other work of corperal mercy Christ highlights here… How is it they end up in hell?

He calls them sheep and goats not “saved” christians.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Great point! Insightful…

And if you called the thief a sinner for believing in Christ’s promise wouldn’t you be just like the other thief who denied Christ?