Do we know for a fact we are saved

[SteveVH]

I hear what you’re saying. But I myself can’t put the Lord on the same level as human judges. My God is a loving God, not a God sitting on a hill with a magnifying glass trying to burn us, do you know what I mean? God loves us just as much as he loves the thief on the cross. We’re all thiefs. There is nothing we can do but depend on His eternal love for us. Of course this is my opinion - it’s all it can ever be until we stand before Him and are judged. I’m sure the folks that were in ear shot of that conversation with the Lord and the thief were like, Huh, did Jesus just tell that thief that he’s going to be in paradise? Really? That’s not fair because, “I fast, I pray, I’m good, I go to church everyday, I pay my bills on time, I went to Catholic church my entire life, I went to Protestant church my entire life, I fed the poor, I gave money, I (fill in the blank).” It’s all good, but the Lord sees much more…he sees our intentions and knows our heart. Maybe the thief stole to feed his children, maybe he didn’t pay his taxes, or lied about working overtime to get extra money to feed the poor. All are not the right thing to do, but the Lord saw his heart. We judge with our eyes and ears, the Lord…not so much. He judges in a way no human judge ever will understand.

God is THAT good, and that great, and that merciful, and that loving, and that gracious, and that compassionate.

Thanks for reading.

I agree with everything you said. Consider also that the “good thief” acknowledged his sin before God and agreed that he deserved his punishment. He then acknowledged Christ’s innocence. Those two things seem fairly significant to me.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

I agree with everything you said. Consider also that the “good thief” acknowledged his sin before God and agreed that he deserved his punishment. He then acknowledged Christ’s innocence. Those two things seem fairly significant to me.

Me too.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Right. But John isn’t saying that you are definitely saved. John can’t say that, because it’s not up to him.

If salvation is guaranteed to those who say they believe, and who believe they are saved, there would be no reason to talk to the believers (saved) about sin, especially deadly sin and of following the commandments.

The Bible doesn’t only say that someone can tell that your are a Christian by the way you behave, it tells you how you have to behave to be a Christian. It’s obvious that good behavior is something that people have to work on their whole lives.

Even according to the passages quoted here, it’s clear that some believers (some of those you would call saved) will fall into deadly sin.

What is the price of deadly sin?

John says you can know and I do not see any other way to interpret that. He is not saying that salvation is guaranteed to those who say they believe. Isnt that what you call a strawman? Arguing against something John never said. Because I think he agrees with you and me. Not everyone who says they believe in something is saved. We agree. It seems to me that by saying that some people are not believers that means that those who are cannot have assurance. I dont get that. It seems like an unintentional argument for relativism. Which I do not think you are!

 

[SnakeMauler]

I’m pretty sure I’ll be saved if I keep avoiding sin and confessing my sins when necessary and receiving the sacraments. I’m always a little apprehensive I guess, but I’m trying to do my best. Hopefully God will like me

 

[SteveVH]

Hopefully God will like me

I think He has already shown how much He “likes” you. Just look at the cross.

God bless.

 

[Zooey]

How can you be saved when you have yet to die and be judged?

That is really a very good question.
I notice the word “saved” being tossed around by people & I always have to do a mental translation of it, into what I think they mean by that…But of course, the exact meaning shifts a bit (or a lot) from one person to the next.
I would say, from over here in the Methodist Amen Corner, that most of us, even all of us, have had moments in our lives that we can look back to, & realize, that at a particular point in our lives, we had confessed all our sins to God (& I am not about to fight about how that was done, just saying, it is something that most any Christian can remember, a time when you were at peace with God).
Where the trouble seeps in, is when someone (& there gave been several so far in this thread), when s/he decides that s/he is forgiven of everything & that always & forever, regardless of what happens next, and then the translating needs to start. (Again).
Because, as Anna points out, there are folks who will hang onto OSAS, & even try to use it as a club to belabor the rest of us into submission…because if we are honest (& I am speaking to the OSAS folks here specially now), we have followed up that time of sweet fellowship with Our Lord with something like hitting our thumb with the hammer, or we have tripped over the cat, & that fellowship is jettisoned in favor of a long string of words that are forbidden at CAF, but which sound something like: * !!!&%$@@ idiot!!! ********* all cats to the devil anyhow, why have you planted your &&&!!!()*++?//!! backside there anyhow? And why did you ask me to hang that @@###!!! picture of your mother today of all days when you KNOW I have a headache, you may take her and *******************, so there!!
And if anyone thinks he is going straight to Heaven with that on his conscience-- Well. I don’t believe in OSAS, either.
I also don’t believe that Catholics & Protestants use that word the same way. (The word “saved”, I mean. Not one of the ones that make you go !!! We all use those the same :blush:way, & I just hope that is the worst thing we ever do, thus rendering this whole conversation purely academic).

 

[kalt]

I hear what you’re saying. But I myself can’t put the Lord on the same level as human judges. My God is a loving God, not a God sitting on a hill with a magnifying glass trying to burn us, do you know what I mean? God loves us just as much as he loves the thief on the cross. We’re all thiefs. There is nothing we can do but depend on His eternal love for us. Of course this is my opinion - it’s all it can ever be until we stand before Him and are judged. I’m sure the folks that were in ear shot of that conversation with the Lord and the thief were like, Huh, did Jesus just tell that thief that he’s going to be in paradise? Really? That’s not fair because, “I fast, I pray, I’m good, I go to church everyday, I pay my bills on time, I went to Catholic church my entire life, I went to Protestant church my entire life, I fed the poor, I gave money, I (fill in the blank).” It’s all good, but the Lord sees much more…he sees our intentions and knows our heart. Maybe the thief stole to feed his children, maybe he didn’t pay his taxes, or lied about working overtime to get extra money to feed the poor. All are not the right thing to do, but the Lord saw his heart. We judge with our eyes and ears, the Lord…not so much. He judges in a way no human judge ever will understand.

God is THAT good, and that great, and that merciful, and that loving, and that gracious, and that compassionate.

Thanks for reading.

Exactly. God is our judge, and he is above all others, including ourselves. God doesn’t try to “burn” us. He wants us to follow him, and not to just say we follow him. But he doesn’t take our free will away once we say we believe. God will never turn away from us, but we may turn away from him. We turn away from God every time we sin.

I don’t think the thief was saved because he stole for a good reason. I think he was saved because he believed that Jesus is Lord and because he was truly sorry for his sins.

And you’re right about God seeing more than we do. So those who have said that they know they are saved are being presumptuous. They have no idea if they’ll never commit a deadly sin in the future. And God is our judge, not ourselves. Those who say that they are saved have judged themselves. Heck, what thief wouldn’t love to be his own judge.

 

[kalt]

The author wasn’t trying to stage a doctrine for mortal and venial sin. Instead he was setting the stage for us (those who were born of God) to pray for those who were sick due to sin. In this body, believers are still ruled by the universal laws of sin and death ordained by God. Same as the woman who still suffers pain during child birth. Yet, the sting of death, that is the eternal separation from God has been swallowed up in victory for the believer.

It depends if your defining “deadly” as spiritual death or physical death. Denying Christ would be both physically and spiritually deadly. These persons that deny Christ remain under His wrath and are eternally condemned. Believers who commit sin earn the consequences of sin that are universally ordained including physical death but are not under God’s condemnation.

It is the “spiritual death” that you added which seems counter to what John has written.

Because you warn your children about sin that can hurt them.

Yes, I am capable of committing all sin. But the pattern where I’m am continuously serving sin as my master was forever shattered by the work of Christ on the cross.

I understand it with significant qualifier “according to his will”

Are you saying that you can commit a deadly sin and that for you it isn’t deadly? Can you support that idea with scripture? Where in the Bible does it say that believers can commit a deadly sin and not suffer the consequences that others do.

Do you believe that those who don’t know Christ and commit the same acts will be condemned? Is murder a sin if the person doesn’t know Jesus and lives in a culture in which murdering the enemy isn’t illegal or sinful?

I will assume that you agree that the person isn’t guilty of a deadly sin in that case. So who was John talking about when he spoke of the “brothers” who have commited deadly sins? He must be talking about believers. You say that believers are saved. Can saved people be guilty of deadly sins and live eternally?

It seems that you understand the concept of sacramental Confession, though you probably don’t say you believe in it.

So what of the unrepentant believer (saved person) who commits a deadly sin? Are you really saying that saved people can commit deadly sins without eternal consequence, even when they’re not repentant?

 

[kalt]

And if you called the thief a sinner for believing in Christ’s promise wouldn’t you be just like the other thief who denied Christ?

Straw man argument alert.

No one is saying that believing in Christ’s promise is a sin. We disagree with what you believe the promise is. We disagree with you, because your opinion isn’t supported by what the Bible says. The verses you quoted, in fact, prove that your opinion is wrong.

 

[kalt]

John says you can know and I do not see any other way to interpret that. He is not saying that salvation is guaranteed to those who say they believe. Isnt that what you call a strawman? Arguing against something John never said. Because I think he agrees with you and me. Not everyone who says they believe in something is saved. We agree. It seems to me that by saying that some people are not believers that means that those who are cannot have assurance. I dont get that. It seems like an unintentional argument for relativism. Which I do not think you are!

Again I’m having trouble wading through your sentences. Come commas please.

No one can know if they are saved, because they are not the judge. God is the judge, and He makes the judgement at our deaths, not before.

You have made yourself your own judge. You have declared that you believe and have lived up to all that God requires, and more, that you will always be in a sate of grace.

Your argument against my position is the strawman argument. You’re saying that I’ve said that no one can know that they are saved because some people who believe that they are saved aren’t. It’s true that some who think they are, aren’t. That is proof that people can’t knowm but that’s not **why **you can’t know that you are saved. You can’t know that you are saved, because you are not the judge. God is the judge. Who are we to judge ourselves?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Kalt
So when John says you can KNOW that you have eternal life, how do you interpret that again? Not trying to make you repeat yourself but I do not get your answer. If I know I have eternal life, should I then have doubts? Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[MaryandJoseph]

A non-intellectual chimming in with my:twocents:

Though the OSAS sounds great and comforting, I cannot and will not take that kind of chance with my eternal soul.

If the doctrine of OSAS is WRONG and that is the doctrine I follow, I do NOT want to find this out at my judgement.

If I live my life in total trust and faith in the Entire teachings of Jesus, both what is written in scripture and what is taught by His holy Church (this includes partaking of the sacraments) and know and believe, which I do, that its by the Grace of God that I am saved, then I CAN live my life with reasonable assurance that I will be saved. (notice I said REASONABLE)

If, when I die, I find out that OSAS was a correct teaching of Jesus, then I am still in heaven (in my case–a long LONG time in purgatory). I would rather error on the side of caution and Fight the Good Fight and Run the race to the end.

OSAS scares the heck out of me. That one nagging question would haunt me,

WHAT IF I AM WRONG?

 

[kalt]

Kalt
So when John says you can KNOW that you have eternal life, how do you interpret that again? Not trying to make you repeat yourself but I do not get your answer. If I know I have eternal life, should I then have doubts? Is that what you are suggesting?

Read John 1 Chapter 5 again. What is he really telling you that you know?

He is telling you that believers know that Jesus is the Son of God, is Lord, and that we can have eternal life through him. But how do we have eternal life? In the same chapter John talks about knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and of keeping the commandments.

It’s clear that John isn’t saying that all you have to do is “believe” to be saved. And he certainly isn’t telling you that you can know that you are saved before God judges you. God judges you at death.

Above all, John is **not **telling you that you are your own judge. This chapter isn’t about telling people that they are “saved”, it’s about telling people that they have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they have to keep the commandments. This isn’t telling you that you are “saved”, it’s telling you that you are saved through Christ–if you believe that Christ is the Son of God and you keep the commandments.

In the same chapter the author talks about deadly sin. It isn’t a discussion about deadly sin, but he mentions it. He talks about the “brothers” who have commited deadly sins. It’s clear that these brothers are brothers in Christ, believers, those you would call “saved”. No where does John say that if you believe in Christ and commit deadly sins that you are saved. John makes a clear distinction between kinds of sins.

You have pulled that one line out and given it a meaning that doesn’t jive with the rest of the chapter and the rest of the Bible.

What is the cost of deadly sin?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Read John 1 Chapter 5 again. What is he really telling you that you know?

He is telling you that believers know that Jesus is the Son of God, is Lord, and that we can have eternal life through him. But how do we have eternal life? In the same chapter John talks about knowing that Jesus is the Son of God and of keeping the commandments.

It’s clear that John isn’t saying that all you have to do is “believe” to be saved. And he certainly isn’t telling you that you can know that you are saved before God judges you. God judges you at death.

Above all, John is **not **telling you that you are your own judge. This chapter isn’t about telling people that they are “saved”, it’s about telling people that they have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they have to keep the commandments. This isn’t telling you that you are “saved”, it’s telling you that you are saved through Christ–if you believe that Christ is the Son of God and you keep the commandments.

In the same chapter the author talks about deadly sin. It isn’t a discussion about deadly sin, but he mentions it. He talks about the “brothers” who have commited deadly sins. It’s clear that these brothers are brothers in Christ, believers, those you would call “saved”. No where does John say that if you believe in Christ and commit deadly sins that you are saved. John makes a clear distinction between kinds of sins.

You have pulled that one line out and given it a meaning that doesn’t jive with the rest of the chapter and the rest of the Bible.

What is the cost of deadly sin?

Okay. I wanted to hear your best response. The underlined part is at the core of what you are saying.

Kalt

And he certainly isn’t telling you that you can know that you are saved before God judges you

John

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I appreciate your responses though.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Okay. I wanted to hear your best response. The underlined part is at the core of what you are saying.

Kalt

John

I appreciate your responses though.

No one living to day can say for fact it he/she know if they are ging to heaven or hell until his/her takes the last breath, …MT 10-20has this to say, he who endures to the END will be saved, the end is not here yet

 

[crazzeto]

He calls them sheep and goats not “saved” christians.

Have you been “saved”?

Do you do all the corperal acts of mercy Christ specifically points out in the passage?

 

[kalt]

Okay. I wanted to hear your best response. The underlined part is at the core of what you are saying.

Kalt

John

I appreciate your responses though.

And again you take a part of what is written and give it a meaning that you want it to have, which is not what the author was saying. In this case your are taking only a part of a sentence that I wrote and ignoring the rest of the sentence. How can you read for meaning when you chop up sentences even–forget about whole paragraphs, chapters, and books.

What I said was that John isn’t telling you that you can know that you are saved before God judges you.

You choose to ignore part of the sentence as you choose to ignore everythign else in John 1 chapter 5, except once line. Doing this, you miss the meaning. John is telling you how you can be saved, not that you **are **saved.

If you choose to read this way, even picking out parts of sentences, that’s entirely up to you. It’s no wonder, then, that you’ve accepted the idea of OSAS, which is anti-biblical.

 

[kalt]

No one living to day can say for fact it he/she know if they are ging to heaven or hell until his/her takes the last breath, …MT 10-20has this to say, he who endures to the END will be saved, the end is not here yet

This is where the OSAS supporters have gone wrong. They pick out a sentence from the Bible and give it a meaning apart from the chapter it’s found in. They refuse to read in context.

Politicians are good at this, too. It would seem that someone who has been exposed to campaign tactics would know that you can’t take one sentence and understand what the person quoted was actually saying.

And here we have someone taking parts of sentences!

If someone says, “My feet hurt when I wear high heels.”, this person will insist that the quoted person’s feet hurt. He will prove his point by saying that this is what is at the heart of the person’s statement - “My feet hurt when I wear high heels.”

If someone says, “You know that there is a bed for you at home when your day is done. To come home, you must follow the rules until you are ready for bed.” And this person will hear only that “You know that there is a bed for you at home when your day is done.” and will take this as a promise that no matter what he does, he is guaranteed a bed. He completely ignores the rest of the statement.

 

[Joshua27]

Hello…

Put the situation in terms of finances: I think it’s more accurate to say [for the original price] “OPAP” (Once paid[for] always paid[for]), but we still must do what’s necessary to be saved.

1. You buy a house…it’s a specific price.
2. A bank offers to pay the bulk of the price for you, so your burden of payment is minimized
3. The bank gives YOU the rest (to put with your own money), but it is YOU who still must pay for the house.
4. Once you buy the house, truly, the house is paid for (the original cost has been settled)…but you now owe the bank a debt.
5. So now you’re required to pay the bank for their service to you.

---

The Original Passover was a prototype of what Messiah’s act does for us today.

1. The Lives of all first borns was required as payment (because of the judgement of the Pharoah).
2. An agreement was made - with God - where the (representative) life [blood] of a lamb was sufficient for payment.
3. The terms of the loan were (a) mark your door posts and (b) stay indoors.
4. All first borns were still required to pay, but whichever first borns did not adhere to the terms of the replacement payment did not have available to them the replacement payment.

---

1. We [humanity] owed a debt payment = Life [represented by Blood; Living Waters]
2. Someone offered to pay it for us; he gave his Life TO us, for our debt payment (if we’d accept his offer).

[He did not offer “to die”, per say, but such was a consequence of giving his life to US as payment.]

1. The conditions/terms of accepting his financing offer are…

a) Belief that his “life” was offered to us in the first place:
[if you don’t believe there’s **someone who’ll provide financing, you won’t consider paying your debt in the first place, right?];

b) Duplication of the “Obedience” of the one who offered the payment (be like him).

1. WE are STILL required to settle OUR payment, but we have an opportunity - a choice - to pay it with His life…or with ours [as the price still must be paid].

Because the price is an eternal one it required a perpetual (ongoing) payment, so we are required to maintain adherence to the terms and conditions of the loan or risk not having His payment [Life] available to continue our payment (or then our lives are put back in their original places for payment)…which is why “without His Life, we are already dead, even in life”.

---

The payment has already been made, but we are not automatically saved. To be “saved” [from the life debt] is to actively replace one’s life with His [Messiah’s] by following all of his terms and conditions - now - in life.

This is how we can be saved now - through our choices today - even though we’ve not yet physically died or entered judgement.

To believe that our choices “to adhere to and be more like the Messiah”, now, do not guarantee our salvation, now, is to suggest that His replacement payment - His Life - wasn’t (or isn’t) sufficient enough in the first place.

 

[kalt]

Hello…

Put the situation in terms of finances: I think it’s more accurate to say [for the original price] “OPAP” (Once paid[for] always paid[for]), but we still must do what’s necessary to be saved.

1. You buy a house…it’s a specific price.
2. A bank offers to pay the bulk of the price for you, so your burden of payment is minimized
3. The bank gives YOU the rest (to put with your own money), but it is YOU who still must pay for the house.
4. Once you buy the house, truly, the house is paid for (the original cost has been settled)…but you now owe the bank a debt.
5. So now you’re required to pay the bank for their service to you.

---

The Original Passover was a prototype of what Messiah’s act does for us today.

1. The Lives of all first borns was required as payment (because of the judgement of the Pharoah).
2. An agreement was made - with God - where the (representative) life [blood] of a lamb was sufficient for payment.
3. The terms of the loan were (a) mark your door posts and (b) stay indoors.
4. All first borns were still required to pay, but whichever first borns did not adhere to the terms of the replacement payment did not have available to them the replacement payment.

---

1. We [humanity] owed a debt payment = Life [represented by Blood; Living Waters]
2. Someone offered to pay it for us; he gave his Life TO us, for our debt payment (if we’d accept his offer).

[He did not offer “to die”, per say, but such was a consequence of giving his life to US as payment.]

1. The conditions/terms of accepting his financing offer are…

a) Belief that his “life” was offered to us in the first place:
[if you don’t believe there’s **someone

who’ll provide financing, you won’t consider paying your debt in the first place, right?];

b) Duplication of the “Obedience” of the one who offered the payment (be like him).

1. WE are STILL required to settle OUR payment, but we have an opportunity - a choice - to pay it with His life…or with ours [as the price still must be paid].

Because the price is an eternal one it required a perpetual (ongoing) payment, so we are required to maintain adherence to the terms and conditions of the loan or risk not having His payment [Life] available to continue our payment (or then our lives are put back in their original places for payment)…which is why “without His Life, we are already dead, even in life”.

---

The payment has already been made, but we are not automatically saved. To be “saved” [from the life debt] is to actively replace one’s life with His [Messiah’s] by following all of his terms and conditions - now - in life.

This is how we can be saved now - through our choices today - even though we’ve not yet physically died or entered judgement.

To believe that our choices “to adhere to and be more like the Messiah”, now, do not guarantee our salvation, now, is to suggest that His replacement payment - His Life - wasn’t (or isn’t) sufficient enough in the first place.

And to say that because we’re following the terms of the deal today we’re “covered” if we break the terms later makes no sense. People have free will. Free will to believe and stop believing, to live by the terms and to not live by the terms.

What really makes no sense to me is the idea that because Jesus dies on the cross, we don’t have to do anything but believe, when Jesus tells us differently. Some say, “I believe, so I am saved.” and Jesus might say, “You say you believe. Show me. Show me today, tomorrow, and until your death that you believe. I will give you your whole life to live as a Christian, and I won’t make judgement until you die. You cannot be condemned until you die. (I won’t condemn someone while they still have the chance to repent.) Similarly, you cannot know that you will be saved until you die. So work on it. I offer salvation. Will you live up to your end of the bargain?”

When we die, the bill comes due. Again, what is the price of deadly sin?