Do we need a miracle of Cana?

[scylla]

Would you like me to start a thread on why it is a fact that EHMC’s lead to abuses?

I didn’t think that it would be necessary to prove this as most Catholics are aware of the abuses that have come up in the Mass as liberals have encouraged participation by the laity in actions that the Priest should do.

I dont think anyone would think that it is a fact that EHMC’s have led to less or had no effect on abuses. If you would like to discuss this I would be happy to.
There is no need to suggest that I don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion because of a lack of education.
Just state that it isn’t a fact and back it up, unless you cannot, then concede. Don’t just say nuh-uh.

We need to reform the Novus Ordo, as it is full of abuses and there is rarely a Mass where there isn’t abuses commited, which is directly a result of EHMC’s, lack of catechesis, and ignoring of proper roles in the Mass of the laity.

(sorry for derailing the thread, I will be happy to participate in another, if someone feels like starting one)

In Christ
Scylla

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Would you like me to start a thread on why it is a fact that EHMC’s lead to abuses? **You are, of course, perfectly free to start any thread you like. The FACT remains that it isn’t a FACT that the institution of EMHCs are of themselves an abuse or that the institution LEADS to an abuse. Anything can be abused. **

I didn’t think that it would be necessary to prove this as most Catholics are aware of the abuses that have come up in the Mass as liberals have encouraged participation by the laity in actions that the Priest should do.** Should? Should is determined by the Holy See. Should the laity extend their hands and “help” the priest confect the Sacrifice? No. Should they extend their hands and “help” the priest bless? Should they scrunch up around the altar, so that it looks like the laity are all presiding? No. Should they hear confessions and give absolutions? No. But should they do what the Holy See permits under a bishop’s license and help distribute Holy Communion? Yes, they should, until the Holy See (and not the little “magisteriums” that set themselves up as such on these forums) says otherwise. It’s a stopgap measure, because of the shortage of priests. Can it be abused? Certainly. Is it an abuse in and of itself, as you seem to be aledging (correct me if I’ve mistaken you)? No, not according to the Holy See. **

I dont think anyone would think that it is a fact that EHMC’s have led to less or had no effect on abuses. If you would like to discuss this I would be happy to.** I’ve seen EMHCs abused, certainly. It is the practice of EMHCs, the discipline of EHMCs, as permitted by the lawful authority of the Church, that is not, in and of itself, an abuse. **

There is no need to suggest that I don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion because of a lack of education.
Just state that it isn’t a fact and back it up, unless you cannot, then concede. Don’t just say nuh-uh. **It isn’t a fact BECAUSE it’s an opinion. A fact is something like “the sun rises in the east and sets in the west” or “dolphins give birth to live young.” An opinion is something like “George Bush is a bum” OR, in this instance,“EMHCs are an abuse” (though as I said, they can BE abused, but then there is nothing in this sad old world that Man cannot seemingly abuse). **

We need to reform the Novus Ordo, as it is full of abuses and there is rarely a Mass where there isn’t abuses commited, which is directly a result of EHMC’s, lack of catechesis, and ignoring of proper roles in the Mass of the laity. **I don’t think we need to reform the NO in and of itself, ie, in its theology or its order. We simply need to stop the abuse of it. I disagree with your stance on EMHCs, though I agree they may be abused or overused (but it is my opinion that denying the Chalice to the laity with a view to getting shed of EMHCs is a bit on the side of overkill). I certainly agree that there is a lack of good catechesis that needs to be addressed and, in certain areas, that there has been an overt attempt to blur the lines between the laity and the priesthood (I don’t deal with it regularly, because, except for one parish in my city, the masses are run pretty tightly, but I’ve seen it, usually on trips to California). **

 

[netmilsmom]

Personally, I think that if EMHC’s are kept Extraordinary, they are needed.
Until we have a big upsweep in Priestly Vocations or altar rails and Intinction are ordinary, they need to be used and not abused.

That’s what I think if anyone cares.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Personally, I think that if EMHC’s are kept Extraordinary, they are needed.
Until we have a big upsweep in Priestly Vocations or altar rails and Intinction are ordinary, they need to be used and not abused.

That’s what I think if anyone cares.

If we had an upswing in priestly vocations (or the diaconate, I don’t know why bishops don’t emphasize the diaconate more), it’s possible that they wouldn’t even be needed to take the Sacrament to the homebound or ill, and could honorably retire with the Church’s gratitude.

 

[scylla]

I am not saying that EMHC’s or implementing EMHC’s are an abuse they are a valid solution to the artificial destruction of vocations to the Priesthood.
The implementation of them has led to abuses. This is a fact because without EMHC’s, these abuses that they do wouldn’t exist.

Since liberals have impeded people from learning the Catholic faith and good holy Priests from being formed, this has resulted in Priests being killed both physically and spiritually.
Physically through contraception, abortion and overwork.
Spiritually by reducing the proper role of the Priest, destroying Catechisis programs, misrepresenting Vatican II, denying the faith and changing the focus away from God\Sacrifice to the community.

Maybe I should clarify myself,
We do need a reform of the implementation of the N.O. as it hasn’t been implemented correctly and continues to move away from a focus on God and toward a focus on community, just to make people feel good.

Out here in California we have it pretty bad as the liturgy is constantly being experimented on. So I have a different view as to liberty of worship. Just because my Bishop says it’s ok doesn’t make me faithful when I do it. Just because my Bishop says it’s ok to not confess my sins doesn’t make it right. We should look for more fidelity, not the most we are allowed to do.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[netmilsmom]

If we had an upswing in priestly vocations (or the diaconate, I don’t know why bishops don’t emphasize the diaconate more), it’s possible that they wouldn’t even be needed to take the Sacrament to the homebound or ill, and could honorably retire with the Church’s gratitude.

Exactly!
We have three priests and two retired priests one in his 80’s and one just turned 90. We still use EMHCs for Christmas, Easter and some homebound.
If we had 10 priests, we wouldn’t need them but right now we are much more blessed than many parishes and get Priests or Deacons for every Holy Mass.