The New Testament SHOUTS the Divinity of JesusI don’t recall ever stating that I or the Catholic Church has ever said any differently.I’ll quote CM on that
Can you prove that with statistical facts that include a survey of all Catholics? I think not, therefore it’s a rash generalization without basis in fact.You and your grandmother would be among the few… yet there are a few Catholics who have read the bible all the way through.
Doctrinally yes. On a personal devotional level that does not apply. You attempt to make it sound like we cannot read and understand what is written. That’s odd since the Church attaches indulgences for reading the Bible. Why would they do that if not to encourage us to read and study it?Catholics are still not permitted to interpret what they read in there.
read the bible all the way through either.If those stats are true, that’s not my fault, nor the fault of the Catholic Church. Perhaps they should spend more time reading the Word of God than trying to tell Catholics what to believe.But you are not alone. Over 90% of professing evangelical christians have not
I think that is one of the things we Catholics have been saying all along and especially in the last 500 years. It’s one reason that I have written articles like these for my blog.Reading is of no value unless one believes and obeys the teachings of Christ found within the pages.
context is every thing.I don’t recall ever stating that I or the Catholic Church has ever said any differently.
t.
is this statistical proof?Can you prove that with statistical facts that include a survey of all Catholics?
from insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5386&Itemid=48
Why Catholics Don’t Read the Bible
by David R. Carlin
[snip]
All this changed, officially at least, at Vatican II, which dropped the Church’s 400-year-old “defensive mode of being.” Lay Catholics were now at long last given the green light to read the Bible; indeed, they were encouraged to read it.
While many of Mr. Carlin’s points are well-taken, I feel I should point out that he is wrong at least on this one - the indulgence for 15 minutes of reading Scripture predates Vatican II by nearly 100 years . . . and it was only creating an “incentive” for a practice that had been encouraged ever since the introduction of approved vernacular translations in the 17th and 18th centuries.
but they don’t read the Bible and many here do NOT see that as a problem.All this changed, officially at least, at Vatican II, which dropped the Church’s 400-year-old “defensive mode of being.” Lay Catholics were now at long last given the green light to read the Bible; indeed, they were encouraged to read it.
Yet today, nearly a half-century later, 44 percent of American Catholics “rarely or never” read the Bible, and only 7 percent read it on a daily basis.
I think it’s a problem. I just don’t agree that the source of salvation on earth is the bible. The bible is a means that the Holy Spirit can bring to mind what Jesus has done and taught as it has been passed down from the men He chose to spread it, so it is a spiritual conduit that delivers Jesus Christ to the earth. The bible is notr of course the primary means that God is delivered to us. A meditation on the person of the Holy Spirit as ’ God hovering over the deep, is good for this because it points our mind to the Holy Spirit as Witness. A divine Person that is a Witness to the Word of God made visible by the human body. Before it Incarnated as One man and after. As a people before they are the Word on earth as the Old Testament and after they are the Word on earth as the New Testament. The former characterized as shadows and temporary, the latter as gathered around God permanently among them and so death will not be able to hold them. Salvation comes from God Incarnate who entered human life. It’s that human life that has made visible the Word and since that human life will be on earth untill He comes again it’s that organ of life that is the primary expression of the Word of God on earth and without them the Sacred Scriptures are unable to offer God who entered into Human life.but they don’t read the Bible and many here do NOT see that as a problem.
Of course catholics can read and understand what is written in the Bible! The problem is that you are forbidden to believe what it actually says about how we receive eternal life.Can you prove that with statistical facts that include a survey of all Catholics? I think not, therefore it’s a rash generalization without basis in fact. Doctrinally yes. On a personal devotional level that does not apply. You attempt to make it sound like we cannot read and understand what is written. That’s odd since the Church attaches indulgences for reading the Bible. Why would they do that if not to encourage us to read and study it? If those stats are true, that’s not my fault, nor the fault of the Catholic Church. Perhaps they should spend more time reading the Word of God than trying to tell Catholics what to believe.
(Aside: Have you read the Bible completely? More than once? All 73 books of it?)
I think that is one of the things we Catholics have been saying all along and especially in the last 500 years. It’s one reason that I have written articles like these for my blog.
of course salvation does not come from the Bible.I think it’s a problem. I just don’t agree that the source of salvation on earth is the bible. .
Well there’s a blatant lie. Start a new thread *with specifics * - if you dare.Of course catholics can read and understand what is written in the Bible! The problem is that you are forbidden to believe what it actually says about how we receive eternal life.
Even is you are on “my side” I also have to disagree with that statementOf course catholics can read and understand what is written in the Bible! The problem is that you are forbidden to believe what it actually says about how we receive eternal life.
gtrenewed;6367569:
You are in error. The OT passage the eunuch is reading, like the rest of the OT, pertained to the day they were in and and foreshadowed Jesus. So, it was necessary for Philip to preach Jesus to an OT Jew.Benadam;6367464:
The pattern of transmission as you see it completely ignores the fact that the scriptures can only be understood if heard from someone who understands their truer meaning. How then is the true meaning guaranteed? Unity in belief and understanding.
That’s the whole point with the eunuch. He knew that he couldn’t understand the scriptures by reading them as your attern of transmission allows. He needed to speak to someone of autheority. He understood authority since he was a person of great authority.
As i said the events surrounding this eunuch from ethiopia demostrates how the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide to all truth is given.
This statement by the Eunuch implies that he understood the necessity of an unbroken tradition from the community that the testimony is about for an authentic teaching and that he believed Philip would teach him that. " tell me, is the prophet speaking about himself or someone else?" To know if the prophet is speaking about himself or someone else implies that what is taught is ion fact what the prophet taught. Your example falls short of being an imitation of this bible passages teaching about who and how the Holy Spirit guides to Truth.
In the NT we find the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. We find the Way, the Life, and the Truth. We find salvation and the life in the Spirit, not in the law.
The Holy Spirit resides within us for Scripture teaches that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not by the will of man but the will of God.
My example does not fall short for the Holy Spirit guides a believer into all truth of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles recorded in the NT.
Your example of the Spirits guiding is OT, in the hands of a few. As Peter preached at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is poured out on all mankind.
No, I am saying that Scripture does not stand alone because it wouldn’t exist as an authoritative document without an authoritative Church that preceded it.
Well, Scripture does stand alone in bringing all people to “salvation by grace through faith it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast”, Pauls letter to the Ephesians. Over and over again, Scripture declares Jesus as the head of the church which is His Body.
Or like Joseph Smith did when it was revealed to him that the apostles had apostacized and so Jesus had come to North America to try again?
Or like William Miller did when it was revealed to him that the reason the Second Coming had been delayed was because Christians weren’t keeping the Law?
Or Mary Baker Eddy, who discovered that the mind was a manifestation of God which could overcome the corrupt. material body?
Or John Calvin, to whom it was revealed that individuals could not freely choose to accept or reject Jesus?
Or any number of other less-well-known individuals who have led people into “churches” based on their own interpretations of the Scripture?
Peter and Paul were Apostles.
Your original comment was that the divinity of Jesus is a doctrine outside of Scripture. It has been demonstrated in other posts and mine that this is not so, the divinity of Jesus is in Scripture, notwithstanding history. The promise was given to all men. And we hear the Apostles in Scripture.
Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”Your assertion of a one true church being the RCC is all through this thread. Even your assertion above about an authoritative church confirms your belief.
Again, there can be unity in Jesus if not conformity in liturgy.
gtrenewed;6389964:
I agree somewhat because their proof does not really hold up in context. A sure sign of a false doctrine is the denial of Jesus as God.What I meant to state, and what is clear even in other threads on this site, is that those who believe Jesus is NOT One with the Father can also “prove” their belief from Scripture.
Jesus guaranteed a way to believe to future generations. You say this is through the RCC. I say it is through the Scripture of the first century church writings that are Christian and Jesus is guaranteeing that these teachings will be available to future generations. The RCC as an organization comes along much later. The first century church is comprised of a group of local churches not necessarily linked organizationally. All Christians are linked ancestoraly to the first century church, Jesus and His disciples. To a RC this does not make sense because you are looking from the inside out. To a non-RC it is evident that the RCC failed as an organization, but is Christian to some if not to most other non-RC groups. It is the vine (or tree) and branches analogy. Jesus is the vine (or tree trunk) and Christian groups are the branches bearing the fruit. Jesus is the head of the Body, His church at large.Absolutely true. I am a Catholic because I believe that without an authoritative Church I wouldn’t be able to be a Christian at all, because there would be no Bible or other source of Truth from which I could learn to know and love Jesus.
Benadam;6367987:
gtrenewed;6367569:
You are in error. The OT passage the eunuch is reading, like the rest of the OT, pertained to the day they were in and and foreshadowed Jesus. So, it was necessary for Philip to preach Jesus to an OT Jew.Are you saying that an OT Jew would not already have been grounded in an authentic enterpretation? This man was open to authentic enterpretation. Nothing in the passage leads us to believe he had heard of Jesus. You are assuming too much.
Actually Jesus taught that the law could get you to heaven. Matt. ch.19, 16-18In the NT we find the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. We find the Way, the Life, and the Truth. We find salvation and the life in the Spirit, not in the law.
if that were true then the Holy Spirit would have taught the eunuch directly no?The Holy Spirit resides within us for Scripture teaches that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not by the will of man but the will of God.
I agree if the Holy spirit is the guide, but without an existing body of teachers teaching the faith as taught since the beginning how do you know the spirit that is guiding?My example does not fall short for the Holy Spirit guides a believer into all truth of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles recorded in the NT.
Your example of the Spirits guiding is OT, in the hands of a few. As Peter preached at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is poured out on all mankind.
Consider what St.Paul wrote-Actually Jesus taught that the law could get you to heaven. Matt. ch.19, 16-18