Do we really have a choice?

[Sinner1]

IrishJoe came up with a question on the Original Sin thread that I think deserves it’s own thread.

Christianity tells us that if we believe in Jesus and accept His teachings, we will go to Heaven. But if we don’t, then we will go to Hell. Are we really given a fair choice in the matter then? I constantly hear people say that Christ gave up his life for me, and now I can freely choose to accept or reject him. But can I really freely choose if I’m threatened to be sent to an eternity of suffering for not accepting?

For instance, a friend buys some tickets to a concert and offers to give me one. If I accept, then I go to the concert. If I decline, then I sit at home at night instead.

But then say my friend threatens to kill me and send me to an eternity of pain, remorse, and torture if I don’t accept the ticket. Do I really have a choice at this point? Aren’t I just being bullied into accepting the ticket?

I don’t quite see how Christ “offering” himself to me is any different.

 

[VociMike]

What do you mean, a “fair choice”?

If I offer you either a billion dollars or a dead skunk, will you complain that it’s not a fair choice because you might choose the dead skunk?

What I think you’re failing to comprehend is that the people in hell would really, truly rather be there than in heaven.

 

[IrishJoe]

What I think you’re failing to comprehend is that the people in hell would really, truly rather be there than in heaven.

so you’ve been to hell and back ?

 

[VociMike]

so you’ve been to hell and back ?

Why are you getting so antagonistic on this subject? You don’t need to get snotty.

No, I haven’t been to hell and back. I just know Catholic theology enough to know that nobody ends up in hell by accident.

 

[Sinner1]

What do you mean, a “fair choice”?

If I offer you either a billion dollars or a dead skunk, will you complain that it’s not a fair choice because you might choose the dead skunk?

I could only truly choose if I wanted a million dollars if you offered it to me outright with no counteroffer.

But if I’m not sure that I actually want the money, I would still feel forced to take it because I really don’t want a dead skunk.

What I think you’re failing to comprehend is that the people in hell would really, truly rather be there than in heaven.

If that were the case, then nobody would need to strive for holiness because they would automatically just end up where the wanted to be.

 

[Sinner1]

No, I haven’t been to hell and back. I just know Catholic theology enough to know that nobody ends up in hell by accident.

I have known some sick and twisted people over the years. But I really can’t imagine anybody actually wanting an eternity of suffering.

 

[believers]

What do you mean, a “fair choice”?

If I offer you either a billion dollars or a dead skunk, will you complain that it’s not a fair choice because you might choose the dead skunk?

What I think you’re failing to comprehend is that the people in hell would really, truly rather be there than in heaven.

People in hell chose not to accept Jesus while they were still on earth. Their time ran out and sent themselves to hell. I’m sure they want a second chance to repent. They are now in eternal fire and torments.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I could only truly choose if I wanted a million dollars if you offered it to me outright with no counteroffer.

But if I’m not sure that I actually want the money, I would still feel forced to take it because I really don’t want a dead skunk.

This is the choice – Christ offers eternal life. You either accept or not. If you do not accept you do not have life. But, what do we call the absence of life – death.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I have known some sick and twisted people over the years. But I really can’t imagine anybody actually wanting an eternity of suffering.

Those in hell have desired a created good over the Creator. They have chosen to attempt to find happiness in something other than the only One who can provide happiness: “you have created us for Yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You”.

 

[Darryl1958]

IrishJoe came up with a question on the Original Sin thread that I think deserves it’s own thread.

Christianity tells us that if we believe in Jesus and accept His teachings, we will go to Heaven. But if we don’t, then we will go to Hell. Are we really given a fair choice in the matter then? I constantly hear people say that Christ gave up his life for me, and now I can freely choose to accept or reject him. But can I really freely choose if I’m threatened to be sent to an eternity of suffering for not accepting?

For instance, a friend buys some tickets to a concert and offers to give me one. If I accept, then I go to the concert. If I decline, then I sit at home at night instead.

But then say my friend threatens to kill me and send me to an eternity of pain, remorse, and torture if I don’t accept the ticket. Do I really have a choice at this point? Aren’t I just being bullied into accepting the ticket?

I don’t quite see how Christ “offering” himself to me is any different.

Somehow I often think that Jesus good news has somehow got twisted into a system of rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior respectively.
It is important I think to understand that heaven is not our reard for being good and hell is not our punishment for being bad. If that were the case, then we would building our own stairway to heaven, rather than being carried away from the clutches of the wolves by the staff of the Good Shephard.

The good news is that not a single one of Jesus’s lost sheep will not be saved. As for the solves and goats and wolves in sheep’s clothing, they are not of the flock in the first place.
Evil, and the fruits of evil, will be destroyed on the Last Day.

So the thing is it is not a matter of our obediance. It is a matter of God saving his lost sheep regardless of whether they have been bad little sheep or not.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Somehow I often think that Jesus good news has somehow got twisted into a system of rewards and punishments for good and bad behavior respectively.

Those who are still beginners in the spiritual life see things in this way – just like little children only think in these terms (do this an get punished, don’t do that get rewarded, etc.). Unfortunately, many (if not most) Christians never advance past this stage.

 

[Sinner1]

Those who are still beginners in the spiritual life see things in this way – just like little children only think in these terms (do this an get punished, don’t do that get rewarded, etc.). Unfortunately, many (if not most) Christians never advance past this stage.

The Christian message seems pretty clear to me. Believe in Jesus or go to Hell.

 

[raikou]

I have known some sick and twisted people over the years. But I really can’t imagine anybody actually wanting an eternity of suffering.

Of course the devil works by deception. He decorates an evil with an apparent good. He lies to make it even look way better than it truly is. The sinner seeks that apparent good, chooses it freely, in spite of knowing that it is wrong to do so. That’s how the devil recruits companions in that place of torment aka hell.

Returning to the question, I am sure we have no choice but to admit that we have free will. We can freely choose what to do, no doubt about that.

But this freedom is not absolute. The choice brings with it certain consequences, depending on the action. These consequences are already beyond human freedom.

Someone may want to jump off a tall building for the thrill of it, but he knows that when he does so, it might well be his final wish. The best way to use his freedom in order to be free of this deadly consequence is to be sane enough not to choose it at all.

Is God black-mailing us into hell? No. Remember that hell is the just consequence of sin. Perhaps everyone agrees that a murderer needs to be punished in some way, especially if the victim was our loved one. We also know that the gravity of an offense depends on the dignity of the victim. It is different when someone slaps a common citizen than when he slaps the president.

Think of a grave sin as trying to “kill God,” to ignore his moral precepts, to deny his right to us as our Creator. If some crimes against humans deserved death, how about this offense against God whose dignity is infinite?

But even when we received death as a just punishment, God desired to ransom us with his own Son! Christ suffered in expiation for our sins. The depths of God’s love and mercy sought our repentance so that through his grace and our cooperation, he might redeem our fallen humanity and resurrect us to the glory of heaven.

Now, if we reject his mercy… what will we deserve? What’s to stop the full force of justice upon us?

 

[mplamann]

Christianity tells us that if we believe in Jesus and accept His teachings, we will go to Heaven. But if we don’t, then we will go to Hell. Are we really given a fair choice in the matter then? I constantly hear people say that Christ gave up his life for me, and now I can freely choose to accept or reject him. But can I really freely choose if I’m threatened to be sent to an eternity of suffering for not accepting?

For instance, a friend buys some tickets to a concert and offers to give me one. If I accept, then I go to the concert. If I decline, then I sit at home at night instead.

But then say my friend threatens to kill me and send me to an eternity of pain, remorse, and torture if I don’t accept the ticket. Do I really have a choice at this point? Aren’t I just being bullied into accepting the ticket?

I don’t quite see how Christ “offering” himself to me is any different.

I see the same situation from a different perspective. Instead of a “threat” of Hell, I see Christ making individuals aware of the natural consequences of their actions.

Your example of the friend offering you tickets is slightly different. The threat is not a natural consequence of your action of taking or declining a ticket. The threat in your example is a consequence based on your friend’s action against you, not a natural consequence of going to a concert or not.

I am no expert theologian, but God does not threaten us with Hell if we choose not to seek the truth (of which seeking, hopefully, leads to Him). Jesus’ preaching on Heaven and Hell simply illustrate the natural consequences of seeking the truth or intentionally avoiding the truth (or knowing in your heart God’s law is true, but choosing to ignore or not follow His teachings). The natural consequences are getting what you’ve chosen to seek in the end – eternal union with God or eternal separation from God.

And any expert theologians, please correct or confirm my understanding on this subject.

 

[Sinner1]

Think of a grave sin as trying to “kill God,” to ignore his moral precepts, to deny his right to us as our Creator. If some crimes against humans deserved death, how about this offense against God whose dignity is infinite?

Today, only the absolute worst of crimes are given the death penalty. And no matter what crime you have committed, you only pay the penalty (death) once.

But now with God, we’re told that committing any sin, even if it’s not something as serious as murder or rape, we deserve an eternity of torture and suffering. You don’t just just pay the penalty once, but again and again. Infinity times. Forever and ever.

If you were envious of your neighbors possessions just once, you deserve an eternity of torture. If you skipped Mass on a holy day of obligation, you deserve an eternity of torture. If you looked at some promiscuous images, you deserve an eternity of torture.

This is something I just can’t grasp. No matter how heinous the act, I can’t think of any action a human can do that would make them deserve an eternity of suffering.

 

[Sinner1]

I see the same situation from a different perspective. Instead of a “threat” of Hell, I see Christ making individuals aware of the natural consequences of their actions.

Your example of the friend offering you tickets is slightly different. The threat is not a natural consequence of your action of taking or declining a ticket. The threat in your example is a consequence based on your friend’s action against you, not a natural consequence of going to a concert or not.

I am no expert theologian, but God does not threaten us with Hell if we choose not to seek the truth (of which seeking, hopefully, leads to Him). Jesus’ preaching on Heaven and Hell simply illustrate the natural consequences of seeking the truth or intentionally avoiding the truth (or knowing in your heart God’s law is true, but choosing to ignore or not follow His teachings). The natural consequences are getting what you’ve chosen to seek in the end – eternal union with God or eternal separation from God.

And any expert theologians, please correct or confirm my understanding on this subject.

That would almost seem worse to me. It would seem as if God created us in a way that we just naturally go to hell. Hell is just a natural consequence of being born. That seems unusually cruel.

 

[anon5216]

Of course, there’s also the more likely possibility that the “Hell” alternative comes not from one or more aspects of the “Trinity” but rather from more mundane humans simply wanting to be in control.

Since they can’t actually deliver on any of the “heavenly” rewards (at least not while you’re still alive), who’s going to fall for the possibility of these “rewards” after death for a life of strict obedience to someone who doesn’t even exude any of the qualities promised.

No, the only effective method is to instill fear. Not just any fear, but the worst possible things imaginable and then make it for all eternity with no possibility of “parole” or “rehabilitation”.

What a con.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The Christian message seems pretty clear to me. Believe in Jesus or go to Hell.

Let’s look at some other ‘choices’.

If a plate of food is placed in front of you, you can either eat it or starve to death. Are you forced to eat the food because alternatively you will die of starvation?

Are you forced to breathe air because you will be punished with suffocation if you do not?

 

[VociMike]

The Christian message seems pretty clear to me. Believe in Jesus or go to Hell.

Alright, you pretend to be God for a moment and tell us what the Christian message should be. Tell us how a perfectly good and merciful and just God would configure the world.

 

[cazayoux]

The Christian message seems pretty clear to me. Believe in Jesus or go to Hell.

Actually the Christian message asks for a lot more than just believing in Jesus.
I mean … Satan believes in Jesus, but look where he is.

There’s a bit more required to escape hell…

As a Catholic, I believe what the Bible says in terms of what one must do in order to get to Heaven …
Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)…
all by the grace of God.

I tend to think of Hell simply as the absence of God.
I don’t see hell as dying over and over again infinity times as someone here suggested. Outside of this life, time doesn’t actually exist. Heaven isn’t IN time. Neither is hell.

michel