Do we really have a choice?

[Sinner1]

Alright, you pretend to be God for a moment and tell us what the Christian message should be. Tell us how a perfectly good and merciful and just God would configure the world.

If I was God, then I would make it clear to everybody which was the correct religion. I wouldn’t make faith so vague and threaten to damn those who picked the wrong one.

I would present people with a clear choice. If they want to go to Heaven, then they would get there by doing what’s right. If they don’t want to go to Heaven, then they would simply cease to exist after death. And if for some reason they are masochist and actually want an eternity of suffering, then by all means let them go to Hell. I wouldn’t terrorize people with the thought of eternal damnation.

 

[Sinner1]

Let’s look at some other ‘choices’.

If a plate of food is placed in front of you, you can either eat it or starve to death. Are you forced to eat the food because alternatively you will die of starvation?

Are you forced to breathe air because you will be punished with suffocation if you do not?

True, good point.

But death is a very natural part of life. By this analogy, it would seem that God designed us so we would naturally be damned to Hell.

 

[Sinner1]

I tend to think of Hell simply as the absence of God.
I don’t see hell as dying over and over again infinity times as someone here suggested. Outside of this life, time doesn’t actually exist. Heaven isn’t IN time. Neither is hell.

But isn’t hell an eternity of suffering? Eternity means an infinite amount of time without a beginning or end.

 

[Mijoy2]

I understand your struggles Sinner1, for I share them.

However, I try to look at it his way:

We have free will. God has promised us Heaven, which is beyond our wildest dreams. A life of everlasting love with our Creator and with all our brothers and sisters. Without our accepting the offer, our Love for Him and for each other would be imposed upon us. Thus the love we have for Him would not be a true love. Chosing life without love is Hell. Chosing ourself over His love is Hell. I don’t believe he created a place called Hell and designed into it horrific tortures (I may be mistaken and if I am some theologeon here can correct me of course). I rather think that the existance absent of any and all Love becomes by default horrific tortures. Not by design. Much like evil being the absense of good.

He desires for us Heaven. He revealed Himself to us to show us the way. He provides us with sufficient graces to learn this way. We receive those graces and do with them what we will. (I chose to believe your current questioning of His Way is your acting on the graces He provided you, or else you simply wouldn’t care and wouldn’t be here inquiring). The walk isn’t an easy one. Your answers will not always come steadfast and clear. I’d suggest to you that maybe they shouldn’t.

It makes sense to me in the way life has turned out for me by walking both paths. Ignoring His Graces to pursue my own desires followed by feelings guilt and disgust with myself. Choosing His Way and witnessing the wonderful fruits He promised by doing so. I used to constantly ask myself and others the same questions you are asking here. To be honest, I still do. The lack of my understanding the immediate logic in His Ways plagues me still.

But I have witnessed that laying down my life to follow Him provides the rewards He promised. Following my own desires over His way provided me with hell (or a taste of hell).

It’s a lifelong struggle for many of us. For others, such as many I have encountered in these forums, thier faith seems to come to them more readily; thier doubt less nagging. However I suspect you will keep asking these questions and you will keep searching His reasoning.

I pray for your satisfaction with what you learn.

 

[Equites_Christi]

I rather think that the existance absent of any and all Love becomes by default horrific tortures.

I think this is a very important concept and more people need to grasp it.

 

[VociMike]

If I was God, then I would make it clear to everybody which was the correct religion. I wouldn’t make faith so vague and threaten to damn those who picked the wrong one.

Were the angels in heaven vague on the concept of God? And yet 1/3 of them rebelled. Were Adam and Eve vague on the concept of God? And yet they rebelled. Why would your approach give any better results?

I would present people with a clear choice. If they want to go to Heaven, then they would get there by doing what’s right. If they don’t want to go to Heaven, then they would simply cease to exist after death. And if for some reason they are masochist and actually want an eternity of suffering, then by all means let them go to Hell. I wouldn’t terrorize people with the thought of eternal damnation.

How is telling people the truth terrorizing them? Would you rather that God lied to people to spare their feelings?

Furthermore, the teachings of the Catholic Church are very clear. And the guide of each person’s conscience is very clear. I don’t think the problem with most people is lack of clarity, I think it is too much clarity. People don’t want to acknowledge that their favorite sins are leading them away from God. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Were the angels in heaven vague on the concept of God? And yet 1/3 of them rebelled. Were Adam and Eve vague on the concept of God? And yet they rebelled. Why would your approach give any better results?

Dang it!

I was just about to type that, but you beat me to it!

 

[Sinner1]

Were the angels in heaven vague on the concept of God? And yet 1/3 of them rebelled. Were Adam and Eve vague on the concept of God? And yet they rebelled. Why would your approach give any better results?

Well then that was their choice. They knew exactly what they were rebelling against.

How is telling people the truth terrorizing them? Would you rather that God lied to people to spare their feelings?

No, I would rather God make a very clear choosing the right path. And then instead of damning somebody to Hell for eternity, I would rather God just make them cease to exist.

Furthermore, the teachings of the Catholic Church are very clear. And the guide of each person’s conscience is very clear. I don’t think the problem with most people is lack of clarity, I think it is too much clarity. People don’t want to acknowledge that their favorite sins are leading them away from God. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

You’re assuming that Catholicism is the right religion.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’re assuming that Catholicism is the right religion.

Of this there is no doubt.

I have posted this often of late and will continue to do so when necessary:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

An excerpt:

To be a Christian it is normatively necessary to be a formal member of the Church Christ founded. This is the Catholic Church. And to be a formal member of the Catholic Church it is necessary to be formally subject to the earthly leader Christ established for it: the pope.

A Catholic thus might construct an argument for Unam Sanctam’s definition like this:

1. To be saved it is necessary to be a Christian.
2. To be a Christian it is necessary to be a member of Christ’s Church.
3. To be a member of Christ’s Church it is necessary to be a member of the Catholic Church.
4. To be a member of the Catholic Church it is necessary to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
5. Therefore, it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[tobinatorstark]

IrishJoe came up with a question on the Original Sin thread that I think deserves it’s own thread.

Christianity tells us that if we believe in Jesus and accept His teachings, we will go to Heaven. But if we don’t, then we will go to Hell. Are we really given a fair choice in the matter then? I constantly hear people say that Christ gave up his life for me, and now I can freely choose to accept or reject him. But can I really freely choose if I’m threatened to be sent to an eternity of suffering for not accepting?

For instance, a friend buys some tickets to a concert and offers to give me one. If I accept, then I go to the concert. If I decline, then I sit at home at night instead.

But then say my friend threatens to kill me and send me to an eternity of pain, remorse, and torture if I don’t accept the ticket. Do I really have a choice at this point? Aren’t I just being bullied into accepting the ticket?

I don’t quite see how Christ “offering” himself to me is any different.

we are given more than a fair choice. God has given so much to us it is impossible to repay him the way we should, but he gives all the chances to try and obey him

What do you mean, a “fair choice”?

If I offer you either a billion dollars or a dead skunk, will you complain that it’s not a fair choice because you might choose the dead skunk?

What I think you’re failing to comprehend is that the people in hell would really, truly rather be there than in heaven.

agreed.

 

[guanophore]

I have known some sick and twisted people over the years. But I really can’t imagine anybody actually wanting an eternity of suffering.

At they time they are earning their way in, they don’t believe it will happen to them. Remember the parable about Lazarus and his brothers? They were caught up in licentious living,and cared not for their eternal souls.

 

[Sinner1]

Of this there is no doubt.

For you.

If everybody had no doubt, than everybody would be Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Today, only the absolute worst of crimes are given the death penalty. And no matter what crime you have committed, you only pay the penalty (death) once.

But now with God, we’re told that committing any sin, even if it’s not something as serious as murder or rape, we deserve an eternity of torture and suffering. You don’t just just pay the penalty once, but again and again. Infinity times. Forever and ever.

If you were envious of your neighbors possessions just once, you deserve an eternity of torture. If you skipped Mass on a holy day of obligation, you deserve an eternity of torture. If you looked at some promiscuous images, you deserve an eternity of torture.

This is something I just can’t grasp. No matter how heinous the act, I can’t think of any action a human can do that would make them deserve an eternity of suffering.

Such actions reflect a heart that is not right with God. This is what creates the separation.

 

[guanophore]

That would almost seem worse to me. It would seem as if God created us in a way that we just naturally go to hell. Hell is just a natural consequence of being born. That seems unusually cruel.

God did not create us that way. Humans were created in right relationship with Him. He created us to walk with Him in fellowship.

 

[guanophore]

If I was God, then I would make it clear to everybody which was the correct religion. I wouldn’t make faith so vague and threaten to damn those who picked the wrong one.

I would present people with a clear choice. If they want to go to Heaven, then they would get there by doing what’s right. If they don’t want to go to Heaven, then they would simply cease to exist after death. And if for some reason they are masochist and actually want an eternity of suffering, then by all means let them go to Hell. I wouldn’t terrorize people with the thought of eternal damnation.

Do you think that what you would like to see happen in somehow dfferent than what God has actually done?

 

[JMJ_coder]

No, I would rather God make a very clear choosing the right path. And then instead of damning somebody to Hell for eternity, I would rather God just make them cease to exist.

And how is: choose me or I will make you cease to exist - not a forced choice, according to your OP?

 

[JMJ_coder]

But death is a very natural part of life. By this analogy, it would seem that God designed us so we would naturally be damned to Hell.

No, death is very unnatural. There is nothing more against the original intent of God than to be subjected to death, to have the soul ripped apart from your body. But that is one of the consequences for the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Our nature was thrown out of harmony with the Creator.

 

[Sinner1]

God did not create us that way. Humans were created in right relationship with Him. He created us to walk with Him in fellowship.

I am told that I was created in a state of Original Sin, even though it was not my fault. Even though God may also deny any responsibility, it would still appear that I was created to naturally go to Hell.

 

[Sinner1]

And how is: choose me or I will make you cease to exist - not a forced choice, according to your OP?

The same way I’m not forcing you to go to a concert when I offer you a ticket. You can either take the ticket, or you can not go.

It’s not forced if God offers you to go to Heaven, or not to go. You can either follow God and go to Heaven, or if you don’t want to, then you don’t have to. You just won’t go anywhere when you die.

But instead, it seems as though we are being bullied. Follow me and go to Heaven, or be tortured for all eternity.

 

[Sinner1]

No, death is very unnatural. There is nothing more against the original intent of God than to be subjected to death, to have the soul ripped apart from your body. But that is one of the consequences for the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Our nature was thrown out of harmony with the Creator.

Regardless of how you may interpret Genesis, biologically, death is a very natural part of life.