Do we really have free will???

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This question was posed to me by a buddhist, which some would equivocate with an atheist, and his argument was that we had the illusion of free will. If God is all knowing, then he knows what your every move is going to be, from birth until death, If he knows what you’re going to do in the future then you have to do that which he knows you are going to do, because if you didn’t do what he knew you were going to do then God would be wrong, and that just doesn’t happen. Despite the fact that there was a possibility of our doing something else, it was already known that we weren’t going to do it. I was at a loss on how to respond, so a little help would be nice. Do we really have free will?
 
This question was posed to me by a buddhist, which some would equivocate with an atheist, and his argument was that we had the illusion of free will. If God is all knowing, then he knows what your every move is going to be, from birth until death, If he knows what you’re going to do in the future then you have to do that which he knows you are going to do, because if you didn’t do what he knew you were going to do then God would be wrong, and that just doesn’t happen. Despite the fact that there was a possibility of our doing something else, it was already known that we weren’t going to do it. I was at a loss on how to respond, so a little help would be nice. Do we really have free will?
This question comes up every few weeks but that isn’t a good reason to ignore it. In fact it usually leads to new ideas on the subject. 🙂

Why does knowing what people are going to do deprive them of free will? Even we can predict what people will do - most of the time - but they are still making their own choices and decisions. Knowledge does not imply compulsion…
 
I covered Our, God’s and the problem of foreknowledge and will in another thread, so I think it’s relevent to repoint it here as the question concerns free will.

*"Does God have free will?

In my opinion, it seems:

The will as a faculty of rationality should work with reason; and by consequence requires “practical knowledge” as the basis for praxis;

Of the two faculties of reason and will, the supremacy is in the will; and although by intellection the will can be preasured for this act or that; the will is essentially supreme;

Speaking causally, the will’s freedom nessecitates that it may not, especially in the context of God; be applied in the capacity of denying itself its own volition or nolition as that would entail a contradiction.

Therein, if the faculties of reason and knowlege are carried to infinity; their consequential praxis may only occur in the presence of with volition – knowing one’s future acts only encourages; not compels those same acts – presuming an infinite will. For compulsion and freedom are contradictory.

Therefore one is led to either;

God’s volition or nolition praxis is not infinite – ie; he has no free will
Wherein, God’s infinite knowlege forces his acts, which to me seems contrary to the idea of the free will.

God’s basis for praxis is not infinite – ie; his volition or nolition is not compelled
In which case, we must accept that God is not essentially omniscient, (which, by incidence makes his will only encouraged) but that this denies the predicates essential too God, and thus I find it repugnant.

God’s will supercedes his basis for praxis – ie; his exercised will is practically superiour to the reasoned encouragement of praxis.
The infinite reason, and infinite knowlege of God are distinct only formally, and their determination with regards to praxis only suggestive rather than compulsive; by which then - they are reconcilable to the notion of his superiour will

God’s will is not univocally or really identical with our experiential will; ie; God’s will differs from ours.
In which case any reconciliations or assumptions to the nature of its influence over an infinite reason/knowledge is purely speculative,

Does Man have free will?

It is safe to say that man appears to have free will; even our acts of will are suggested by intellection the ultimate election of will is independant of said intellection. This is experientially true in the same sense that one would hold that the external world is in some sense true – and besides, one can never be blamed for holding this view, as those who would contest it nessecarily feel that I am compelled to hold this view without will, and am consequentially blameless; even if incorrect.

Evidently, it is far easier to reconcile man’s will with freedom than God’s, for essentially the nature of omniscience does bear into praxis somewhat;

Can Man have free will and God know man’s future actions?

Yes, either;

The potential acts are numerically finite; if God’s wisdom is to be taken as infinite there is no reconciliation or explanation nessecary.

Or

An application of univocity with regards to intellection between finite and infinite entities is neither helpful nor particularily acheivable (from the side of the finite), and by consence therein, one is led to the earlier conclusion that; experientially we have free will."*

👍
 
This question was posed to me by a buddhist, which some would equivocate with an atheist, and his argument was that we had the illusion of free will. If God is all knowing, then he knows what your every move is going to be, from birth until death, If he knows what you’re going to do in the future then you have to do that which he knows you are going to do, because if you didn’t do what he knew you were going to do then God would be wrong, and that just doesn’t happen. Despite the fact that there was a possibility of our doing something else, it was already known that we weren’t going to do it. I was at a loss on how to respond, so a little help would be nice. Do we really have free will?
First off, Buddhism is far from Atheism.

Secondly, we do have free will. This “God” does not influence our lives as there are some who believe he does. “He” created this universe which is run on Laws of Physics, and most importantly the law of cause and effect.

With cause and effect, comes chances and probability, which is free will just used in scientific terms.

Think of a something small scale, like you standing in front of a door way. Think of all the possibilities you could walk through that door. How/When/Where could you pass through it?

We were created on cause and effect with chance and probability. We influence our lives, not a “God”
 
What’s wrong with God knowing everything including all OUR actions? Does having a free will imply the ability to cross an omniscient being? I think your friend doesn’t like the fact that he/she isn’t like God, but free will is what it is: you can do whatever you will except fool God.

As a Christian I can unequivocally state that without free will hell would not exist.
 
If he knows what you’re going to do in the future then you have to do that which he knows you are going to do, because if you didn’t do what he knew you were going to do then God would be wrong, and that just doesn’t happen.
It’s worse than that actually.

God, being omniscient, doesn’t even have free will himself. God knows every single decision he is ever going to make, past present and future. God can’t second guess himself in the future because he already knows it’s going to happen.

God, far from being omnipotent, is chained to an infinite future where every decision he is ever going to make effectively already has been made.

God cannot even change his mind.
 
It’s worse than that actually.

God, being omniscient, doesn’t even have free will himself. God knows every single decision he is ever going to make, past present and future. God can’t second guess himself in the future because he already knows it’s going to happen.

God, far from being omnipotent, is chained to an infinite future where every decision he is ever going to make effectively already has been made.

God cannot even change his mind.
WOW! :rolleyes: I’m sure glad I’m ignorant then.
 
My answer is simple but here goes…we do have free will but it is in the process of deciding what to do, learning as we go through that process, how we affect other people in that process and what they may learn…it goes on and on. The journey is important even if the destination is already determined.
 
Gods transcends time. He is past, present and future, therefore he knows what we are going to do with our free will.
 
I like to think that God’s omnipotence works something like this, and I realize that this is an odd (and imperfect) analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.
 
I know that if I offer my friend a dollar, he will take it. I know this because I know my friend pretty well. However, he is still free to accept or reject that dollar- he is still making a choice, even though I can predict the outcome. I don’t know what he will do if I offer him a baloney sandwich with anchovies- I don’t know him quite that well. So I am able to predict some of my friends actions with some degree of certainty- but he is still making the choices that lead him to those actions. I have imperfect and incomplete knowledge of my friend- so there are somethings I can’t predict with any solid degree of certainty.

But what if I knew my friend perfectly? The I could predict his responses to every conceivable scenario. And if I knew everything, I would know every scenario my friend will encounter- thus, I would know everything he would ever do. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t making the choices.
 
Moonstruck888 (atheist)
God, being omniscient, doesn’t even have free will himself.
God is Omniscient – He knows all things from all eternity, past, present and to come. Knowing the meaning of a term is essential for reasoning. Further, an atheist by definition denies the existence of God, so would know nothing about the attributes of God or of reality.

Yes we have free-will; we are conscious of the power to choose whether we will or will not do a certain act. Through the natural moral law we are attracted to what is good and repelled by what is evil. Due to Original Sin we now find it more difficult to resist evil, but the power of the sacraments, Holy Mass and prayer through the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture empower us to good.
 
Quote:
Moonstruck888
God, being omniscient, doesn’t even have free will himself.
God is Omniscient – He knows all things from all eternity, past, present and to come. Knowing the meaning of a term is essential for reasoning. Further, an atheist by definition denies the existence of God, so would know nothing about the attributes of God or of reality.
Free will implies making choices-if God “knows all things from all eternity, past, present and to come”, how can He be said to have free will? If He already knows these things, He cannot be said to choose one thing over another, since that would imply there was a time when God didn’t know something (which to choose), and then did(after the choice was made).

Unless you change the definition of omniscient as only knowing all that is possible to know, and accept that some things (like decisions of free willed beings, including Him) cannot be known until they are actualized, I don’t see how you explain God’s will being free in any way that can be understood.
 
HelenaMT
I don’t see how you explain God’s will being free in any way that can be understood.
The subject is: Do we really have free will?

Vatican Council I teaches that God, by a completely free decision created the spiritual or angelic world and the corporeal or visible universe. Fr John A Hardon explains that this involves freedom of decision, freedom of choice and freedom of blessing. (The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday 1975, p 72-3).
 
The subject is: Do we really have free will?

Vatican Council I teaches that God, by a completely free decision created the spiritual or angelic world and the corporeal or visible universe. Fr John A Hardon explains that this involves freedom of decision, freedom of choice and freedom of blessing. (The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday 1975, p 72-3).
Yes, I got that, but I was just interested in hearing a logical justification of how a being who cannot change can be said to have made a choice, an action that logically implies a before and after. If God is outside time and has the beginning and the end wrapped up already, where can there be said to be room for freedom of choice?
 
God is simultaneously in the past, present, and future. He does not “foresee” the future, but “sees” the future as you and I see the present moment. That doesn’t, in any way, though affect our decision-making in what we do or don’t do.

Here’s a good .mp3 file you can download to listen to a good talk by Dr. Peter Kreeft on this topic. He’s far more eloquent and informative than I could ever be. 🙂

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/peter-kreeft_fated-free.mp3

Dr. Kreeft teaches philosophy at Boston College. He also has a nice sense of humor.
 
Yes, I got that, but I was just interested in hearing a logical justification of how a being who cannot change can be said to have made a choice, an action that logically implies a before and after. If God is outside time and has the beginning and the end wrapped up already, where can there be said to be room for freedom of choice?
Imagine that it was impossible for you to will anything that was not good. In fact, because it is something you will it is good. Good isn’t something you possess but something that is you. Imagine good defined by what you will rather than restricting what you will. That kind of freedom requires changelessness.
 
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