Do we really have free will?

[davidv]

Not really.

Only if you insist on believing the Universe was set up with you in mind, with all wrong righted, tears dried, and so forth.

I see no reason why the Creator of All Things must be concerned with our petty trifles.

Maybe they are not as petty as you would have us believe.

 

[ASimon]

Maybe they are not as petty as you would have us believe.

Or maybe they are precisely as petty as the Creator Of All Things In The Ever Expanding Universe thinks they are.

I can accept that such things are important to you. But that’s a long from expecting, and in fact, demanding, that the COATITEEU agrees with us.

It’s a funny thing, to go from telling us non-believers that God doesn’t owe us any answers to our questions, from that to expecting the Universe to have been created with all of us in mind from the start.

 

[tonyrey]

It is evidence for the falsity of materialism.

Can you explain how material objects define abstract concepts?

There would be a lot of unfinished business, unrectified injustice, unfulfilled ideals and unrequited love - all of which would make the concept of a Creator so implausible He would not dare to exist!

                              Only if you insist on believing the Universe was set up with you in mind, with all wrong righted, tears dried, and so forth.

If you insist on believing the Universe set itself up with no one in mind it doesn’t matter what happens on this planet. Do you believe that?

I see no reason why the Creator of All Things must be concerned with our petty trifles.

1. What makes you think our lives are petty?
2. Is that a fact that our lives are petty?
3. Why would the Creator create us without any concern for us?

 

[ASimon]

Can you explain how material objects define abstract concepts?

As I said in the other thread, we are hardwired to recognize patterns in the world around us. Abstract concepts like justice, fairness, etc., are derived from observing events in our world, and noticing patterns between them.

If you insist on believing the Universe set itself up with no one in mind it doesn’t matter what happens on this planet. Do you believe that?

On the longest possible timeline, where our Sun goes nova, charring our planet to a crisp, and where the Andromeda galaxy collides with our own, surely obliterating us, and where the Universe eventually goes to heat death, wiping out any continued chance for any life to sustain itself, yes, I do think it ultimately doesn’t matter what happens on this planet.

In the more short term, sure it matters. Even if the Universe isn’t set up with me in mind, I’m still planning on being here for awhile, and I expect our species to survive even longer still. So how I use up the intervening time has a direct effect on me now, on other humans now, and even future humans later. That it all ultimately ends with a cold, dark, dead Universe is irrelevant to this question.

1. What makes you think our lives are petty?

I don’t think our lives are petty. I implied that the Creator of the Universe would have no good reason not to find them petty. I explicitly said that a Creator has no good reason to care about our unrealized ideals and unrequited loves.

1. Why would the Creator create us without any concern for us?

Because he might view us the same way we would view and ant farm we’re keeping our bedroom. Maybe he cared enough to create and maintain a habitat for us, but why would he be necessarily further obligated to us beyond that. Would he shed a tear for his ants if the house burned down with us inside?

 

[ianoleary]

Okay, this question seriously is sending me into a panic (literally). I’m pretty sure I have some type of anxiety disorder (OCD maybe plus depersonalization disorder also) and this is really freaking me out, no exaggeration. I can’t look at people the same way if we’re just fricking robots without free will. I mean I have literally been having trouble functioning, concentrating, and just doing normal tasks lately because I’ve been freaking out about this. Someone please give me some hope to hang onto… I don’t know if anyone of you have heard of Garabandal or Medjugorje, but I’ve been banking on those things. I’ve been banking on the Warning and Miracle of Garabandal to happen to put my doubts to rest, but they haven’t happened yet… God help me, God help us all… Geez, I sound so dramatic, but I’m 100% dead serious.

 

[ianoleary]

^^^^ Can somebody please read my previous post and enlighten me, please??

 

[ASimon]

^^^^ Can somebody please read my previous post and enlighten me, please??

I’ve thought about it, but unfortunately, the thoughts coming most freely to my mind have less to do with providing you practical advice than with offering a commentary on just what sort of antecedent worldview leads someone to take a revelation like “We don’t have free will” and fall into what amounts to a panic attack over it.

I’m not trying to trivialize your feelings, you understand, but I note that your response to this fact about free will and my own could not be more diametrically opposed. Granted, I’m not exactly thrilled at the prospect of not being the author of my own actions, but knowing that it’s true, and further, knowing that it’s always been true, probably takes the edge off in some way. And the illusion persists, after all, in spite of knowing that it’s an illusion. Like a magic trick doesn’t lose it’s entertainment value from knowing that it’s only a magic trick.

 

[PeterJohn]

I’ve thought about it, but unfortunately, the thoughts coming most freely to my mind have less to do with providing you practical advice than with offering a commentary on just what sort of antecedent worldview leads someone to take a revelation like “We don’t have free will” and fall into what amounts to a panic attack over it.

I’m not trying to trivialize your feelings, you understand, but I note that your response to this fact about free will and my own could not be more diametrically opposed. Granted, I’m not exactly thrilled at the prospect of not being the author of my own actions, but knowing that it’s true, and further, knowing that it’s always been true, probably takes the edge off in some way. And the illusion persists, after all, in spite of knowing that it’s an illusion. Like a magic trick doesn’t lose it’s entertainment value from knowing that it’s only a magic trick.

You may not have free will but I do.
try not to turn this persons question into a platform to preach YOUR opinion.
The world was flat but now it’s round, or at least that’s what people taught in colleges. Nothing has changed, they still teach theory in college and in books. Tomorrow is another day for you and perhaps if you chose to you can change your mind about what true and false is…

 

[tonyrey]

Can you explain how material objects define abstract concepts?

Observation does not suffice to explain insight. Animals associate patterns with situations but they don’t understand the reasons for those patterns and their consequences. How did insight and understanding originate?

If you insist on believing the Universe set itself up with no one in mind it doesn’t matter what happens on this planet. Do you believe that?

On the longest possible timeline, where our Sun goes nova, charring our planet to a crisp, and where the Andromeda galaxy collides with our own, surely obliterating us, and where the Universe eventually goes to heat death, wiping out any continued chance for any life to sustain itself, yes, I do think it ultimately doesn’t matter what happens on this planet.

In the more short term, sure it matters. Even if the Universe isn’t set up with me in mind, I’m still planning on being here for awhile, and I expect our species to survive even longer still. So how I use up the intervening time has a direct effect on me now, on other humans now, and even future humans later. That it all ultimately ends with a cold, dark, dead Universe is irrelevant to this question.

It has an effect but you believe you are powerless to alter that effect, how you use the time available or how to plan ahead. So there seems no point in even saying what you intend to do.

1. What makes you think our lives are petty?

I don’t think our lives are petty. I implied that the Creator of the Universe would have no good reason not to find them petty. I explicitly said that a Creator has no good reason to care about our unrealized ideals and unrequited loves.

If our lives are so incomplete and unsatisfactory why aren’t they petty? Isn’t it wishful thinking to imagine they are valuable and worthwhile?

3. Why would the Creator create us without any concern for us?

Because he might view us the same way we would view and ant farm we’re keeping our bedroom. Maybe he cared enough to create and maintain a habitat for us, but why would he be necessarily further obligated to us beyond that. Would he shed a tear for his ants if the house burned down with us inside?

Initial care suggests continued care unless the Creator is inconsistent - which seems absurd. Why bother to care in the very first place? Or to create?

 

[ASimon]

]

If our lives are so incomplete and unsatisfactory why aren’t they petty? Isn’t it wishful thinking to imagine they are valuable and worthwhile?

It certainly is wishful thinking to imagine one’s life is valuable and worthwhile for the space of eternity - which is what Christianity claims. It’s not wishful thinking to limit that value to one’s natural lifespan. Though I think that’s limiting things a bit too much. Most people have some sort of impact on the world that extends beyond death. William Shakespeare’s been dead for nearly 400 years, and he’s still one of the best known writers of all time.

Initial care suggests continued care unless the Creator is inconsistent - which seems absurd. Why bother to care in the very first place? Or to create?

It’s for you to explain how the Creator is consistent, not to simply assert it in the face of a good deal of contradicting evidence. Saying that it “seems absurd” to you and dismissing the proposition on that basis is intellectually lazy, at best.

You have presented no basis on which to assert that the Creator (if he even exists) has the slightest care about our fate. Your questions of “Why would he create us if he didn’t care” only underscore this point. You are simply assuming that no such being would do such a thing. You have no evidential basis to assume this - it’s just what you hope is true.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Okay, this question seriously is sending me into a panic (literally). I’m pretty sure I have some type of anxiety disorder (OCD maybe plus depersonalization disorder also) and this is really freaking me out, no exaggeration. I can’t look at people the same way if we’re just fricking robots without free will. I mean I have literally been having trouble functioning, concentrating, and just doing normal tasks lately because I’ve been freaking out about this. Someone please give me some hope to hang onto… I don’t know if anyone of you have heard of Garabandal or Medjugorje, but I’ve been banking on those things. I’ve been banking on the Warning and Miracle of Garabandal to happen to put my doubts to rest, but they haven’t happened yet… God help me, God help us all… Geez, I sound so dramatic, but I’m 100% dead serious.

Outside factors always influence your decisions. This still does not change the fact that you make the decisions, and you are responsible for your own decisions.

Free will only means that we are capable of making decisions, and that we are responsible for our own decisions.

 

[DPMartin]

I’m an 18 year old born and raised Catholic, and lately life has been a mess. Over the past couple of years I’ve kind of gone though a spiritual rebirth and have been asking a bunch of questions about life. Catholicism seems to have a lot of evidence to support it, but I’m still seeing conflicting evidence. Do we really have free will or am I mistaken about the definition of it? The issue of free will lately has really been bugging me and certainly hasn’t helped my OCD/anxiety/depersonalization that’s been going on. Can someone enlighten me?

ianoleary

The subject of free will vs. determinism is a philosophy debate of centuries long, and in Christian circles there is free will vs. predestination. So if you are going to contemplate the matter, the debate is endless. A good example of the opposition of free will thinking is Calvinism from what I understand, and Catholicism agrees there is free will.

It’s a tough one to say the least. In Christian circles its about, if you chose to follow the Lord, or if the Lord has chosen you and you had nothing to do with choosing to follow the Lord Jesus.

To me, if men have free will then so does the Lord God. Therefore can anyone make God reveal the Truth of Himself to anyone unless He chooses to?

 

[tonyrey]

If our lives are so incomplete and unsatisfactory why aren’t they petty? Isn’t it wishful thinking to imagine they are valuable and worthwhile?

Only if one is a materialist who believes we exist by chance.

It’s not wishful thinking to limit that value to one’s natural lifespan. Though I think that’s limiting things a bit too much. Most people have some sort of impact on the world that extends beyond death. William Shakespeare’s been dead for nearly 400 years, and he’s still one of the best known writers of all time.

In the context of eternity everything is insignificant if death is the end.

Initial care suggests continued care unless the Creator is inconsistent - which seems absurd. Why bother to care in the very first place? Or to create?

It’s for you to explain how the Creator is consistent, not to simply assert it in the face of a good deal of contradicting evidence. Saying that it “seems absurd” to you and dismissing the proposition on that basis is intellectually lazy, at best.

It’s intellectual laziness to affirm that there is evidence against consistency without specifying what it is.

You have presented no basis on which to assert that the Creator (if he even exists) has the slightest care about our fate. Your questions of “Why would he create us if he didn’t care” only underscore this point. You are simply assuming that no such being would do such a thing. You have no evidential basis to assume this - it’s just what you hope is true.

The immense value of life is sufficient evidence - which justifies hope and undermines pessimism. Otherwise you wouldn’t deny that life is petty and be planning to stay around for awhile!

 

[ianoleary]

Outside factors always influence your decisions. This still does not change the fact that you make the decisions, and you are responsible for your own decisions.

Free will only means that we are capable of making decisions, and that we are responsible for our own decisions.

Yeah, I want to believe that, but all of my decisions seem to come from things that are beyond my control. Genes, personality, and environment seemed to have shaped everything that I can think of about myself.

 

[ASimon]

Only if one is a materialist who believes we exist by chance.

And I do.

In the context of eternity everything is insignificant if death is the end.

Correct.

It’s intellectual laziness to affirm that there is evidence against consistency without specifying what it is.

I mentioned the evidence already.

The immense value of life is sufficient evidence - which justifies hope and undermines pessimism. Otherwise you wouldn’t deny that life is petty and be planning to stay around for awhile!

And yet, I’ve managed to agree on the immense value of life without referring the matter upward to a supernatural Creator. Needless to say, life becomes more valuable when you’re operating under the assumption that it won’t go on forever.

 

[PeterJohn]

And yet, I’ve managed to agree on the immense value of life without referring the matter upward to a supernatural Creator. Needless to say, life becomes more valuable when you’re operating under the assumption that it won’t go on forever.

It does??? That’s very much your opinion. I’d say that’s false. I used to be an atheist and can say for sure that life is more valuable now knowing I have eternal life!

 

[empther]

The A-team’s “contribution” to this thread, from post 6

“Free will” can neither be supported philosophically, nor neuro-scientifically, so no, we don’t have it.

No more ignorant statement could be made.

No more damaging statement could be made than this one,
which might convince somebody he has to do what he does and therefore gives up trying to better himself.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ASimon,

Didn’t you freely choose to post to this thread? I know I did.

Every Sunday I teach a Catholic Bible Study program at our local jail. From time to time a prisoner will ask me about having free will. I ask them to recall the judge who sentenced them to jail and to imagine telling the judge you are not guilty of the crime because you have no free will. Then I ask them, what do you think the judge will say? With a doubt, most say the judge will probably add to their sentence!

You can go through the same mental exercise. Imagine a traffic cop pulling you to the side of the road for doing 55 MPH in a 25MPH zone. Now, I know you would never drive so dangerously … but, just imagine this - and you begin to tell the cop that you have no free will. What do you think the cop will say? Naturally, this is just pure speculation … but, I think the vast majority of people know quite well that they have a free will… and would be quite shamed to try and deny it. Of course this is not 100% true over the world … or, even on CAF…

God bless

“Free will” can neither be supported philosophically, nor neuro-scientifically, so no, we don’t have it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ianoleary,

At 18 my guess is that you have had about 12-years of formal education … maybe more! During that time, I am confident you had teachers that gave you assignments to do and a deadline in which to accomplish the assignment. At some point, early in your academic life, you had to make a choice about not only DOING the homework assignment - but, you had to decide the degree of quality you were going to put into this work. This entire process comes strictly from you - and your free will.

For the time being Earth is our home - and God has given us all a homework assignment. While there are some details, the big picture is to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. There are those who insist on leading a life filled with distraction - and just do not have the time to do their homework. There are others who freely choose to cooperate with the Grace of God and do the work in a worthwhile manner - they even learn the subect matter even better Each one of us have the same 24-hours and how you freely decide to use it says a lot about you as a person. It is the choices you make that set your character - not how smart or talented or physically attractive one is - but the choices are what count not only in the end, but throughout our lives.

God bless - and be sure to freely thank Him for that gift of free will

I’m an 18 year old born and raised Catholic, and lately life has been a mess. Over the past couple of years I’ve kind of gone though a spiritual rebirth and have been asking a bunch of questions about life. Catholicism seems to have a lot of evidence to support it, but I’m still seeing conflicting evidence. Do we really have free will or am I mistaken about the definition of it? The issue of free will lately has really been bugging me and certainly hasn’t helped my OCD/anxiety/depersonalization that’s been going on. Can someone enlighten me?

 

[ASimon]

It does??? That’s very much your opinion. I’d say that’s false. I used to be an atheist and can say for sure that life is more valuable now knowing I have eternal life!

Why does experience have to last forever in order to be meaningful?