Do we really need a pope?

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billcu1 said:
We sure have at some times had some sorry excuses for Popes in the past. Wheww.
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This is true. But, what popes do is different from what they teach. Only the latter is divinely protected from error.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Do you have a source for that statement of history?

Regardless, the Pope can sin all he wants, he’s a human after all, but that does not compromise his authority to infallibly teach (note: not impeccably, or sinlessly act).
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Well I know a couple of humdingers Alexander III and Innocent VIII. Remember Innocent viii had everything called witchcraft and maleas malificarum sp?

*Hammer against the witch * to me is fiction. It’s just demonizing everyone else and scaring people into craziness. Back then superstition was fluent. Still is. But this instance is a little more clear to some nowdays.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Do you have a source for that statement of history?

Regardless, the Pope can sin all he wants, he’s a human after all, but that does not compromise his authority to infallibly teach (note: not impeccably, or sinlessly act, but to infallibly teach).
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I was told about Urban. I can’t even remember which.
 
Thorns said:
The same way the pope would know: The Catechism, Scripture, and Tradition.

It appears to me that the teachings are infallible and if the pope should fall into error or heresy regarding faith and morals, he automatically is excommunicated. The pope cannot for example, start teaching tomorrow that abortion is ok. The faithful would know that it still would not be OK. So we only listen to the Pope so long as he says what we already know, it seems.
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  1. Those things are from the Church, which has the same guarantee of infallibility as the Pope.
  2. But the Pope can’t do that. He is protected from it by the Holy Spirit (cf. John 20:20-23)
 
billcu1 said:
Well I know a couple of humdingers Alexander III and Innocent VIII. Remember Innocent viii had everything called witchcraft and maleas malificarum sp?
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Yes, but again, actions are different from teachings. Innocent VIII never taught that witchcraft was OK.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Yes, but again, actions are different from teachings. Innocent VIII never taught that witchcraft was OK.
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What the heck is it? I don’t think there’s any such thing. It’s accusing celtic religious (non-christians) or being wrong about everything. ANd then saying there dancing at night around Satan and having orgies. Fiction. SIckness is from witches in the midst and they have the “Mark of the devil” A mole or something and weigh more than the Bible.
 
JamesTheJust said:
The bold statement is false. What are your sources for that claim? You may have been getting your information from sedevacantist websites.
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How does a person become excommunicated?
JamesTheJust said:
The Pope, and the Church, for that matter, can never teach error. They are protected from doing so by the Holy Spirit.
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So the corrupt popes from the past were not teaching in error? Selling indulgences for personal gain was something that the Catholic Church permits then?

If the pope spoke in contradiction to Church teaching, for instance stating that contraception was now permitted, would faithful Catholics be OK in contracepting because the pope said so or would we still be obligated not to contracept because of objective moral truths?
 
billcu1 said:
What the heck is it? I don’t think there’s any such thing. It’s accusing celtic religious (non-christians) or being wrong about everything. ANd then saying there dancing at night around Satan and having orgies. Fiction.
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What? The definition of witchcraft is irrelevant in a discussion of papal infallibility.
 
Thorns said:
How does a person become excommunicated?
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Nowadays, by a declaration from the Curia.
So the corrupt popes from the past were not teaching in error? Selling indulgences for personal gain was something that the Catholic Church permits then?
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The corrupt indulgences to which you are referring are a complex discussion, but in short, those types of “pay-only” indulgences were never authorized, and they were actually later condemned by the Church. I can provide papers on this, if you’d like.
If the pope spoke in contradiction to Church teaching, for instance stating that contraception was now permitted, would faithful Catholics be OK in contracepting because the pope said so or would we still be obligated not to contracept because of objective moral truths?
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Again, he can’t. If you’ll give me a minute, I’ll find a Church document that proves this.
 
JamesTheJust said:
The corrupt indulgences to which you are referring are a complex discussion, but in short, those types of “pay-only” indulgences were never authorized, and they were actually later condemned by the Church. I can provide papers on this, if you’d like.
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I’d be curious to know more about it, sure and thanks.
JamesTheJust said:
Again, he can’t. If you’ll give me a minute, I’ll find a Church document that proves this.
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I’m sure we can find many Church documents that state the infallibility of the pope (in faith and morals), but does history tell us a different story?
 
Thorns said:
I’d be curious to know more about it, sure and thanks.
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Dave Armstrong has done some excellent work on the subject. Here’s my favorite:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/09/explicit-biblical-evidence-for.html?m=1

And here’s a resource hub on the subject, composed of his work:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/saints-purgatory-penance-index-page.html?m=1
I’m sure we can find many Church documents that state the infallibility of the pope (in faith and morals), but does history tell us a different story?
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No, it doesn’t. Are you asserting that the Church is not infallible either?
 
All churches generally have one person who sits at the top ( non catholic ) and calls the shots - how is that any different? They just don’t call them a pope.
 
All churches generally have one person who sits at the top ( non catholic ) and calls the shots - how is that any different? They just don’t call them a pope.

Does a Ship need a Captain when there are so many sailors aboard.

Does a Corporate Company need a CEO when there are so many executives aboard.

You can call the head of any organization what you like, the Catholic Church is Pope, a large Company President, every Company, Organization has “someone on the top” where the buck stops- just have a different name.

Even the 40,000 Protestant denominations have someone at the head of there Church, to govern the church policy, etc. Most families have a Dad, Hospitals have someone in total control who makes all the decisions, even the Nurses have a Matron.

So can you imagine what it would be like with no Matron, well Nurses could do what they like, Hospitals had know one in charge well Doctors, Surgeons, Nurses could do what they like as know one was in charge to put policies in place. It would be the Law of the Jungle.

Its just not logical.
 
JamesTheJust said:
What is nonsensical about condemning Satanic practices?
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I don’t call a mole or birthmark evidence of satanic practice. Nor rock and roll singers (more recent) worshipers of Satan and satanic practitioners. Satanism in the musical show business is more a gimmick. What is satanic practice? Something you don’t understand quite probably. I can’t think of anything more horrifying than following our own blind and fallen nature and I don’t call that satanic practice. 🤷 At the time of Innocent viii medicine was probably a satanic practice.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft#Demonology
 
TimothyH said:
Whether the Pope is necessary is not the point.

The Pope is part of God’s plan for our salvation. If God had a better, more perfect plan then he would have given it to us.

The Pope is a great gift, part of God’s beautiful gift to mankind. Mary, the saints, the prophets, the Church, the sacraments… all gifts, pearls of great price. If God had something better then he would have given it to us.

Why would we ignore such a gift from God?

-Tim-
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👍:)😃
 
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