Do we really need a pope?

[JamesTheJust]

So in other words, so log as the Magisterium stays intact and without error then all is well. So where does the pope’s infallibility come into all this?

He is the final authority on what the Magisterium teaches. Without him, Bishops would disagree, and have no way to determine who’s right.

In Catholicism, you can go to a parish a city away and some things will be ok, says that priest. Go to another parish, and that priest says its not. Essentially the same thing.

The fact that some priests are uneducated about the Faith is irrelevant to whether the Pope is infallible.

 

[Abu]

Sarcelle #58
we have the Magisterium which gives us definite guidance on the tenets of the faith. Of course individual Catholics are free to agree or disagree with it

Well, hardly. This is more than guidance – it is dogma and doctrine and dissent is totally ruled out.

Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, (Donum Veritatis) 1990, completely rules out all dissent:
“32. The Magisterium has drawn attention several times to the serious harm done to the community of the Church by attitudes of general opposition to Church teaching which even come to expression in organized groups. In his apostolic exhortation *Paterna cum benevolentia *[1974], Paul VI offered a diagnosis of this problem which is still apropos. In particular, he addresses here that public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church also called “dissent”, which must be distinguished from the situation of personal difficulties treated above. The phenomenon of dissent can have diverse forms. Its remote and proximate causes are multiple.”
#36. “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent.”

There has never been, and is no, “licit dissent” as the acknowledged Bl John Paul II has confirmed: “It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].

 

[Thorns]

He is the final authority on what the Magisterium teaches. Without him, Bishops would disagree, and have no way to determine who’s right.

The fact that some priests are uneducated about the Faith is irrelevant to whether the Pope is infallible.

My point is that the pope’s infallibility doesnt really seem relevant. Everyone can be uneducated or educated in the faith, and some can guide and some can lead astray, but we all look to the infallible doctrines of the Church for answers (including the pope) and not its imperfect members.

 

[JamesTheJust]

My point is that the pope’s infallibility doesnt really seem relevant. Everyone can be uneducated or educated in the faith, and some can guide and some can lead astray, but we all look to the infallible doctrines of the Church for answers (including the pope) and not its imperfect members.

Let me explain it this way: without the Pope, no doctrine could be produced. One group of bishops would say that the proposed doctrine is incorrect, and the other side would say that it is correct. We need a higher authority to decide which side is correct.

 

[Thorns]

Let me explain it this way: without the Pope, no doctrine could be produced. One group of bishops would say that the proposed doctrine is incorrect, and the other side would say that it is correct. We need a higher authority to decide which side is correct.

Ok now this starts to make more sense to me.

Now does the Pope all on his own produce a doctrine or are other members of the Church involved in helping to come to a conclusion on a matter?

 

[JamesTheJust]

Ok now this starts to make more sense to me.

Now does the Pope all on his own produce a doctrine or are other members of the Church involved in helping to come to a conclusion on a matter?

The Magisterium has three levels, the Ordinary Fallible, the Ordinary Infallible, and the Extraordinary Infallible. The teachings of all levels are 100% binding on all the faithful, but different levels produce doctrine differently.

The Ordinary Fallible Magisterium teaches through any action or document of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him that is not specified to have higher authority. Encyclicals, bulls, and other papal documents fall into this category.

The Ordinary Infallible Magisterium is hard to classify, but most agree that it consists of social teachings, like the unacceptability of abortion.

The Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium is exercised when Ecumenical Councils issue decrees which are approved by the Pope, or when the Pope issues an ex cathedra statement.

Catholic Encyclopedia on the Magisterium;
newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

Wikipedia on the Magisterium:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium

 

[davidv]

Ok now this starts to make more sense to me.

Now does the Pope all on his own produce a doctrine or are other members of the Church involved in helping to come to a conclusion on a matter?

Neither the Pope nor the bishop produce doctrine. Doctrine is the reveal truth left to the Church by Jesus or that revealed to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Neither the Pope nor the bishop produce doctrine. Doctrine is the reveal truth left to the Church by Jesus or that revealed to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection.

Better language would be “define”, not “produce”, I suppose.

 

[Deconi]

So Jesus said in actuality Thou art a rock(cephas) and upon this rock I will build my church? Some of the translations are a little skewed.

The ‘translators’ can play with that passage for all eternity if they want…

Big Rock, little rock; Big Pope, little pope; masculine rock, feminine rock;
boulder, pebble; stone, grain of sand; Rocky, Susan; Peter, Piper, Pepper…etc.

Fact remains, if you take away what Our Lord built His Church on, there’d be NO church!!

Infallibility was also DEFINED in the same passage!
Apparently there’s a moment when "my Father in Heaven revealed this to you" by getting into the head of [insert - Big Rock, little rock; Big Pope, little pope; masculine rock, feminine rock;
boulder, pebble; stone, grain of sand; Rocky, Susan!..etc.

The 'Magisterium is the collection of Bishops - of which the Pope is one - but there’d be none needed without a church. Moreover, the EO have a ‘magisterium’ but ‘suffers’ without a DEFINING VOTER to settle disputes or disagreements or maintain ONE-mindedness.

The Protestants have MULTIPLE ‘magisterium’ because they have no [insert - Big Rock, little rock, yada, yada,…] to settle dissentions!
Hmmm, maybe that should be multiple mass-hysteria…*

 

[Deconi]

Neither the Pope nor the bishop produce doctrine. Doctrine is the reveal truth left to the Church by Jesus or that revealed to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection.

Be careful here…

The Pope and/WITH the Magisterium announced the Assumption of Our Blessed Mother - from WHOM several devotional ‘doctrine’ flow.

The Canon of Scriptures - and proclaimed it as The Word of God which Protestantism have accepted as dogma and then level ‘attacks’ against The Church from it.

Contraception, plus maybe more to come…*

 

[steve_b]

Ok now this starts to make more sense to me.

Now does the Pope all on his own produce a doctrine or are other members of the Church involved in helping to come to a conclusion on a matter?

Here’s the definition of papal infallibility

1. 
   *
   • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
   • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
   • that is, when,
     1. **in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, **
     2. **in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, **
     3. **he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, **
     4. he possesses,
     5. by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
     6. that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
     7. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
     http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm
     
     When it says “by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter” here’s where that comes from in scripture
     
     The episode is right after an argument broke out among the apostles over who is the greatest among THEM. Jesus settles their argument.
     
     Lk 22:
     24 A dispute also arose among them as to which one of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 But he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you; rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 “You are those who have stood by me in my trials; 29 and I confer on you, just as my Father has conferred on me, a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demandede] to sift all of you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
     
     The others hearing that might be thinking to themselves, hey what are we, chopped liver? Jesus prays especially for Peter that he will be able to do the job required of him to lead the apostles therefore in extension the Church settleing at least 2 issues. Peter is the greatest among THEM, and if there was any disagreement over who is their leader, Jesus settled it here. And Jesus prays especially for Peter as the leader to be able to do what Jesus wants of him.
     
     Since the Church will last as long as the earth exists, the same goes for Peter’s successors. Today, we have Pope Francis, 266th successor to St Peter receiving special prayers from Jesus to lead Our Lord’s Church with true teaching .

 

[Abu]

davidv #66
Neither the Pope nor the bishop produce doctrine. Doctrine is the reveal truth left to the Church by Jesus or that revealed to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection.

Deconi has drawn attention to this error, but it is so important that some further explanation may be helpful.

In Ad Tuendam Fidem, Apostolic Letter Motu Proprio 1998, Bl John Paul II identified clearly the three levels of teaching and taught:
“TO PROTECT THE FAITH of the Catholic Church against errors arising from certain members of the Christian faithful, especially from among those dedicated to the various disciplines of sacred theology, we, whose principal duty is to confirm the brethren in the faith (Lk 22:32), consider it absolutely necessary to add to the existing texts of the Code of Canon Law and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, new norms which expressly impose the obligation of upholding truths proposed in a definitive way by the Magisterium of the Church, and which also establish related canonical sanctions.”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu proprio_30061998_ad-tuendam-fidem_en.html

[In *Ad Tuendam Fidem, 1998, Bl John Paul II identified clearly the three levels of teaching:
1) Dogma – infallible (Canon #750.1) to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith.
2) Doctrine – infallible (Canon #750.2) requires the assent of ecclesial faith, to be “firmly embraced and held”.
3) Doctrine – non-definitive (non-infallible) and requires intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 25), not an assent of faith. [See the Explanatory Note on Ad Tuendam Fidem by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM

 

[hope19]

The pope guided in his infallibility regarding faith and morals certainly is icing on the cake, especially a pope who sets such an outward and visual example of humility. However, should the pope or any pope ever teach something in error, he automatically excommunicates himself and the faithful are still left with the objective teachings of the Church. So is a pope really necessary since, it would seem, that the only necessity is that the teachings themselves are infallible?

I think that if Jesus décided to make St Peter our first Pope, it is that we really needed it, so yes we really need a Pope.