Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[robwar]

I don’t think Christians are apostate or heretical if they stay within churches that embrace the truths found in the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed.

I hope you realize that when you say both those creeds that they are Catholic and produced by Catholic counsels. They are not Protestant in origin at all and in fact there are many more Protestant groups that don’t use them than do.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

I admire the elements of thought you suggest however I do not admire your postings teaching and preaching.

I believe that your motives potentially have merit however while you post and start threads you fail to look at reality.

I see and feel that there may be thoughts that bear consideration and I know within your mind there are elements at war. This is the only reason you cannot answer…

Guanaphore…when was Cornelius regenerated?

and

Did you read Moby Dick?

To divide the body of Christ and be disobedient to John 17 for the sake of unbelievers to believe based on the line of sand regarding Cornelius’ point of regeneration, or if I read Moby Dick… is kind of silly and ridiculous. We first need to correctly understand what other Christian communities officially believe, respect each other and our differences, and look toward the much bigger picture of John 17. When unbelievers look to the dark history of Christianity… including the evil heretic hunting where Christians on all sides killed each other over theological differences… then you have to wonder if the unbeliever has a valid reason to not believe. Hypocrisy of the Christian on all fronts dims the light of the gospel of God.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I hope you realize that when you say both those creeds that they are Catholic and produced by Catholic counsels. They are not Protestant in origin at all and in fact there are many more Protestant groups that don’t use them than do.

That comment makes no sense to me. The truths in those creeds are God’s truth that are neither Protestant or Catholics in nature. They are confessional creedal truths just like Jesus is Lord. Those creeds are around 1,600 years old and the Protestant Reformation is 500 years old… the math doesn’t figure at all. Again, they are Christian creeds which historic Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians can embrace as one body of Christ. You can go to Protestants sites which list those two creeds as part of their confessional statements as a church, or denomination, or a particular Protestant circle like Reformed. Your comment is very similar when Catholics say that the Bible is a Catholic book. I would disagree with you and say the Sacred Scripture is God’s book of revelation to us (Christians from all branches).

 

[robwar]

That comment makes no sense to me. The truths in those creeds are God’s truth that are neither Protestant or Catolics in nature. They are confessional creedal truths just like Jesus is Lord. Those creeds are around 1,600 years old and the Protestant Reformation is 500 years old… the math doesn’t figure at all. Again, they are Christian creeds which historic Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians can embrace as one body of Christ. You can go to Protestants site which list those two creeds as part of their confessional statements as a church or denomination or a particular Protestant circle like Reformed. Your comment is very similar when Catholic say that the Bible is a Catholic book. I would disagree with you and say the Sacred Scripture is God’s book of revelation to us (Christians from all branches).

They are Catholic creeds and came from the Catholic Church counsels. They don’t make sense to you because you are not willing to look into Christian history and where these creeds and the Bible came from, Catholic Church counsels. Yes Sacred Scripture is God’s book but someone somewhere decided which books were and were not apart of the cannon of Scared Scripture. The Bible just didn’t fall from the sky and land and everyone just “knew”.
Who do you think was around 1600 years ago when these creeds were written? It was the Catholic Church not Protestantism.

 

[SteveVH]

Do you consider Protestants baptized in the triune formula to be separated siblings in Christ with the same Heavenly Father?

Yes.

If you believe that unity in this world requires submission to the Magestrium and receiving the Eucharist, then in regards to the thread topic, it seems you don’t mind having the same division for the next 500 years. It is not a solution to say that all 2.2 billion Christians need to become Catholic for unity in this life.

You are implying that, for the sake of unity, that the Catholic Church somehow modify its doctrines concerning the Magisterium and the Eucharist so that it is more palatable to those who have rejected these doctrines from the outset. The Church will never comprimise truth in the interest of placating those who have rejected her teachings.

As far as me personally minding the divisions, of course I mind, but I’m not one of those who rejects the Church. The truth is that until Protestants take a second look at that which they reject, there will remain division. As Catholics, we are obligated to believe all that Holy Mother Church teaches and holds to be true. In order for unity to take place, those who now reject the Church will have to do the same.

Unity does no come to fruition just because we think it would be a good idea. There must be movement back to the teachings and doctrines of the one Church from which they divided.

 

[robwar]

Yes.

You are implying that, for the sake of unity, that the Catholic Church somehow modify its doctrines concerning the Magisterium and the Eucharist so that it is more palatable to those who have rejected these doctrines from the outset. The Church will never comprimise truth in the interest of placating those who have rejected her teachings.

As far as me personally minding the divisions, of course I mind, but I’m not one of those who rejects the Church. The truth is that until Protestants take a second look at that which they reject, there will remain division. As Catholics, we are obligated to believe all that Holy Mother Church teaches and holds to be true. In order for unity to take place, those who now reject the Church will have to do the same.

Unity does no come to fruition just because we think it would be a good idea. There must be movement back to the teachings and doctrines of the one Church from which they divided.

thank-you so well put

 

[57Bill]

Yes.

You are implying that, for the sake of unity, that the Catholic Church somehow modify its doctrines concerning the Magisterium and the Eucharist so that it is more palatable to those who have rejected these doctrines from the outset. The Church will never comprimise truth in the interest of placating those who have rejected her teachings.

As far as me personally minding the divisions, of course I mind, but I’m not one of those who rejects the Church. The truth is that until Protestants take a second look at that which they reject, there will remain division. As Catholics, we are obligated to believe all that Holy Mother Church teaches and holds to be true. In order for unity to take place, those who now reject the Church will have to do the same.

Unity does no come to fruition just because we think it would be a good idea. There must be movement back to the teachings and doctrines of the one Church from which they divided.

This is a very well thought out response.

I was having a discussion like this over Thanksgiving and about the only thing that we agreed on was that we stand apart and always will unless there is a reconciliation and return to Catholicism. Hopefully together we will be united forever with God

 

[SteveVH]

thank-you so well put

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

This is a very well thought out response.

I was having a discussion like this over Thanksgiving and about the only thing that we agreed on was that we stand apart and always will unless there is a reconciliation and return to Catholicism. Hopefully together we will be united forever with God

The difference, IMO, is this. As Catholics we believe that the teachings of our Church are inerrant; that our doctrines are the result of divine revelation; that the voice of the Church is the voice of Christ. We have a divine founder. It is difficult for those whose doctrines are the product of human invention to understand why we are not willing to change what we believe. What I think CU is getting at is that we should all sit down together and begin discarding those doctrines and beliefs that are not common to all. What we have left we can then call “unity”. I would not wish to belong to such a thing.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes.

You are implying that, for the sake of unity, that the Catholic Church somehow modify its doctrines concerning the Magisterium and the Eucharist so that it is more palatable to those who have rejected these doctrines from the outset. The Church will never comprimise truth in the interest of placating those who have rejected her teachings.

As far as me personally minding the divisions, of course I mind, but I’m not one of those who rejects the Church. The truth is that until Protestants take a second look at that which they reject, there will remain division. As Catholics, we are obligated to believe all that Holy Mother Church teaches and holds to be true. In order for unity to take place, those who now reject the Church will have to do the same.

Unity does no come to fruition just because we think it would be a good idea. There must be movement back to the teachings and doctrines of the one Church from which they divided.

Oh… I don’t think it’s that simple or cut and dry. What’s going on with the current ecumenical movement with the Orthodox and Catholic Church that occurred this month? I don’t think the Catholic Church is requiring the Orthodox Churches to submit to the Catholic Magestrium for movement toward unity between the two churches. What you posted is not going to happen; therefore, you are implying that 500 years of additional division is the only possible outcome.

 

[lax16]

There had been a string of them that were weak. My point is the personal failings of people 500 years ago is history.

Jon, weak popes have not killed the Church, just as Jesus promised nothing would stop his Church until He comes again. There is no need to start a new church over weak popes.

Agreed. And we must respond, as was a distinguishing mark of Vatican II.

I have never heard one Catholic utter a negative comment about Lutherans in my entire life as a Catholic.
The Catholic Church has to stay united and has acted to keep it that way her whole history. As I have stated before, the Early Christians faced death by lions and decapitation for standing up for the One True Church.

I think the least we can do is have a frank conversation without being accused of keeping the Protestant and Catholic churches divided.

Of course it matters. Si there any possibility of reconcilation between the CC and the LDS? How many LDS churches has Pope Benedict visited? Clearly, his view of Luther is strikingly different than yours.

You are missing my point.

1. The Catholic Church has not recognized LDS baptisms because they are not of the same Trinity that Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants know to be true. Therefore, there is no reconciling the two religions.
2. Luther is highly regarded by the Mormons. Why?
3. If Jesus founded ONE Church then why follow any other leader? It doesn’t matter, IMHO, who the leader is.

You yourself asked for pardon regarding your lack of ecumenism. My simple point is that the era of ecumenism we are in was started by Vatican II. I’m just asking you to think about the contrast.
Look, I suspect, given your description of where you live, you probably put up with a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric. I just ask that you don’t let that tarnish the positive words of your communion these last 60 years.

I do think about it. I have no problem with say, Lutherans, having a bone to pick with the CC. But, it is done and the question remains, why stay apart?
It is more than anti-Catholic rhetoric, believe me. But I find when I look at all of these various church buildings, I ask myself, is this what Christ intended?
No. No to the Lutherans, the Mormons, the “whoevers”.

When I lived in other states where there was a great mix of religious diversity, I **never ever **even had these thoughts. But now, I am here, and wonder why we have all become so complacent. Some say it is because of Vatican II that Catholics are too quick to brush differences under the rug so we can all just get along.

I think it is about balance.
However, I do not think by being “to the point” in my conversation should give anyone any reason to think I don’t get along with non-Catholics. That is crazy given the fact that I live in a very Mormon neighborhood and have my son in a Lutheran high school.

I feel a sense of urgency. I wish more Catholics did. Every Catholic I know wants to get along, but they are losing so much in the process. Their children are not going to mass or voting pro-life or pro traditional marriage…why? Because we have done a lousy job geting our faith across to others.

I absolutely do not think Catholics today can be accused of not being sensitive to other’s beliefs. I hear them sticking up for others every single day, and yet so many do not stand up for the Catholic Church.

No. It was started as a slur by opponents of the Lutheran reformers, in a way to that of the term “Roman Catholic”. In both cases, members of the communion took it on. Luther stridently opposed the name.

I figured that is where you were going with your question.
Recently, I think over this last summer, there was a Luther Fest in the park. Again, it pains me, it really does, to hear people following a man with good ideas.

Depends on what you mean. We’ve always considered ourselves part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So, we are in the one True Church. we’re not denominationalists. Is there currently a separation between us? Yes.

I understand.
I went to a Lutheran Sunday service a few years ago, and the (female) minister spoke about unity and how we should all be one.
I wanted to raise my hand and say “then what is stopping you?”

He was excommunicated. And we believe our teachings are that of the historic Church. So, no, we haven’t abandoned His Church.

Yes, I realize that. But if I were to teach things against the Catholic Church and get people to follow me, I would ex-communicate myself whether or not I was formally excommunicated.

One cannot rebel against the Church.

 

[SteveVH]

What you posted is not going to happen; therefore, you are implying that 500 years of additional division is the only possible outcome.

Just what do you consider to be the definition of “unity”? As I said in the post above, if we all discard that which is not common to all, as if it is so much unnecessary baggage, and settle on what we have left, would you consider that unity? Do you expect the Church to discard the source and summit of its faith, the Eucharist, so that we can pretend we are unified in our belief?

Here is the hard truth for Protestants. Until you return home to the one, true Church, the Church that Christ himself founded, there will be no unity. Truth is not a matter of negotiated doctrines. Truth is not the product of a vote. Truth IS. It is up to all of us to find it and accept it, regardless of the difficulty in doing so and regardless of whether or not it fits with our preconcieved notions. That truth, all of it, can be found within the Catholic Church and the Church will never, can never, change the truth revealed by Christ to the Apostles which has been guarded and protected from error for over 2000 years.

So I will just say this, CU. If you want unity then start your RCIA classes and come into the fullness of truth. It just ain’t going to happen otherwise.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Just what do you consider to be the definition of “unity”? As I said in the post above, if we all discard that which is not common to all, as if it is so much unnecessary baggage, and settle on what we have left, would you consider that unity? Do you expect the Church to discard the source and summit of its faith, the Eucharist, so that we can pretend we are unified in our belief?

Here is the hard truth for Protestants. Until you return home to the one, true Church, the Church that Christ himself founded, there will be no unity. Truth is not a matter of negotiated doctrines. Truth is not the product of a vote. Truth IS. It is up to all of us to find it and accept it, regardless of the difficulty in doing so and regardless of whether or not it fits with our preconcieved notions. That truth, all of it, can be found within the Catholic Church and the Church will never, can never, change the truth revealed by Christ to the Apostles which has been guarded and protected from error for over 2000 years.

So I will just say this, CU. If you want unity then start your RCIA classes and come into the fullness of truth. It just ain’t going to happen otherwise.

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, and I’m sure you can’t speak for all of them. Let’s see what God does on the issue.

 

[robwar]

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, and I’m sure you can’t speak for all of them. Let’s see what God does on the issue.

CU,
yes, there are a billion Catholics but what the Church teaches and what is truth is not a matter of vote or whether every single one the billion of the Catholics believe or follow it. This came up in the contraception HHS flack. I saw an interview of one of the Bishops where the interviewer told the Bishop that there were a lot of Catholics that are not following this teaching, the Bishop responded that there were Catholics in jail for murder but that doesn’t take away from what the Church teaches about murder or even contraception. You seem so focused on Catholic/Protestant and unity there but there is no unity at all in Protestantism which you seem to ignore or don’t want to touch. You seem to want to focus or push this unity thing and that us Catholics are the cause of disunity between Christians is just bogus.
Protestants can’t even agree on very many things either, that is why there are so many various views on so many things that are pretty significant but you are not calling for Protestants to get it together. A number of them don’t even follow the creeds you quoted earlier. Where is the unity between Protestants? Why are you not pushing for Protestants to obey John 17? If the Bible is so plain and simple to read and understand why has Sola Scriptura resulted in 20-30 thousand Protestant groups? Look at Lutheranism. They are spilt up into many different groups that don’t exactly agree with each other. Some are very conservative and others are very liberal and everything in-between. I work with a Missouri synod pastors wife and they have nothing to do with Wisconsin or American Lutherans, she would view them as more apostate. Why don’t you call all Lutherans to be united in the name of John 17?

 

[SteveVH]

There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, and I’m sure you can’t speak for all of them. Let’s see what God does on the issue.

Well I certainly can’t speak for the Church or other Catholics but you don’t seem to understand that Catholicism is not a democracy. We don’t vote for what we wish to believe so it doesn’t matter how many Catholics might feel otherwise. No one in the Catholic Church, the Pope and the Magisterium included, has the authority to change or modify revealed truth. I don’t think you grasp this idea. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, not man’s Church. It is charged with giving to the world what it has received, not changing what it has received to suit the world.

 

[ffg]

500 years? When Christ himself was instructing, people walked away.

Unity between churches isn’t the goal. Unity with God is the goal.

How do we come in Union with God? Through Truth seeking (and hopefully finding).

The pain for many people is to have faith, so let’s start with reason -

Does Truth exist? 1+1=2 - Check, there is truth.

What is Truth? An indivisible reality, known or unknown (some might not know that 1+1=2, that doesn’t change its nature as true).

Is there a source for Truth? Unless you can trump the visible signs, most notably beating death on your own, we know Truth lies in Christ since he beat death.

Where is Christ? He built a church that will last until the end of time. He was specific about its content, actions, and teachings his first members were to pass along.

Historical texts and various books have documented the history and meaning of this Church, some were put together to form the Bible.

How are we finding this meaning? On our own? From someone who protested their born-into faith? With the help of an organization that didn’t exist before Christ, but has been around since, who happened to have the same guy as its first CEO that Jesus told to be the foundation of His church?

So now we turn to faith - are we looking for proof of everything this Church teaches, or do we listen when Jesus said ‘Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe’? We already know we can trust Him, He beat death.

So, if Truth exists, and Christ can be linked as a source for Truth because of what he did, are we seeking the fullness of the Truth he taught?

With the goal of being in Union with Him.

 

[JonNC]

=lax16;10125334]Jon, weak popes have not killed the Church, just as Jesus promised nothing would stop his Church until He comes again. There is no need to start a new church over weak popes.

I agree - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I have never heard one Catholic utter a negative comment about Lutherans in my entire life as a Catholic.

Oh, good. And if you’ll check my posts, you won’t ay begatives from me about the CC.

The Catholic Church has to stay united and has acted to keep it that way her whole history. As I have stated before, the Early Christians faced death by lions and decapitation for standing up for the One True Church.

If the Catholic Church has stayed united, why was there a schism, and further dvisions?

I think the least we can do is have a frank conversation without being accused of keeping the Protestant and Catholic churches divided.

I think that’ how my first post started. In fact, division will only end when our accusing each other stops.

You are missing my point.

1. The Catholic Church has not recognized LDS baptisms because they are not of the same Trinity that Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants know to be true. Therefore, there is no reconciling the two religions.

Agreed!

1. Luther is highly regarded by the Mormons. Why?

Citation please. I can’t imagine why they would.

1. If Jesus founded ONE Church then why follow any other leader? It doesn’t matter, IMHO, who the leader is.

We do follow Christ.

I do think about it. I have no problem with say, Lutherans, having a bone to pick with the CC. But, it is done and the question remains, why stay apart?

I told you mine - universal jurisdiction. Fix that with Orthodoxy, and I’m in RCIA.

It is more than anti-Catholic rhetoric, believe me. But I find when I look at all of these various church buildings, I ask myself, is this what Christ intended?

It isn’t.

When I lived in other states where there was a great mix of religious diversity, I **never ever **even had these thoughts. But now, I am here, and wonder why we have all become so complacent. Some say it is because of Vatican II that Catholics are too quick to brush differences under the rug so we can all just get along.

Not Pope Benedict. While we have made great progress, he stands strong, for example, in the idea of Eucharistic hosptality. I agree with him. A false unity is not a unity at all.

However, I do not think by being “to the point” in my conversation should give anyone any reason to think I don’t get along with non-Catholics. That is crazy given the fact that I live in a very Mormon neighborhood and have my son in a Lutheran high school.

That’s good. My son went to a Catholic school for a while. And my daughter almost went to a Catholic college. She would have had they offered her major.

I feel a sense of urgency. I wish more Catholics did. Every Catholic I know wants to get along, but they are losing so much in the process. Their children are not going to mass or voting pro-life or pro traditional marriage…why? Because we have done a lousy job geting our faith across to others.

LCMS Lutherans agree.

I absolutely do not think Catholics today can be accused of not being sensitive to other’s beliefs. I hear them sticking up for others every single day, and yet so many do not stand up for the Catholic Church.

The general welsome and kindness I receive here at CAF is evidence.

I went to a Lutheran Sunday service a few years ago, and the (female) minister spoke about unity and how we should all be one.
I wanted to raise my hand and say “then what is stopping you?”

You won’t find one in the LCMS.
Doctrine, mainly. But here is the point, I once heard a Lutheran pastor say that every Lutheran should wake up every day and ask the question: is not being in communion with the Bishop of Rome anymore warranted? It is a good question, and I’ve answered it for you.

Jon

 

[Boltz44]

Boltz44;10121293:

Pardon me…Bolts…can you be more clear…which verse are you talking about?

I was referring to verse 14

 

[Stilldreamn]

I told you mine - universal jurisdiction. Fix that with Orthodoxy, and I’m in RCIA.

But here is the point, I once heard a Lutheran pastor say that every Lutheran should wake up every day and ask the question: is not being in communion with the Bishop of Rome anymore warranted? It is a good question, and I’ve answered it for you.

Jon

I agree with this. I would also add that I could conceivably change my mind if we ended up with a liberal takeover of the synod. Knowing that Christ will ever save His bride, if such a thing came to pass in the LCMS I would have to think that is a kick in the pants saying “start swimming.”

 

[Paddy_Walker]

We were not around 500 years ago. Many of us Protestants were not born into a Catholic family; therefore, how can we return to the Catholic Faith in which we were never part of in the first place? It is my understanding since I was never Catholic, that the curses of the Council of Trent do not apply to me, correct? I started my Christian life at 18 by attending Calvary Chapel (non-denominational); they consider themselves neither Protestant nor Catholic.

Its a matter of history. We cannot ignore where we came from. 500 yrs ago you could say there were no protestants, everyone who was of the church was Catholic more or less. We must look to see why our ancestors abandoned their Faith and began new religions.
When you understand where you came from you understand better where you must go to.