Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[guanophore]

 We don't know if it actually didn't grow slower, but wow did it sure take off after the split 75 years after Christ's death, then again 1500 (or so) years after....

But how do we know that this schism (I prefer Separation over Division) is not part of his plan?

We know because the Word of God is clear that unity is God’s purpose and plan for His people.

John 10:16
16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

The HS always leads toward unity. Whenever division occurs, it is the work of the evil one, capitalizing on our pride, arrogance, greed and other carnal ways.

Jude 17-20

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 they said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

Very interesting point and valid comment, considering the Great Schism occurred way before the Protestant Reformation.

We can read about divisions already occuring in the NT. All of them are deplored by the Apostles. Anyone who has studied the circumstances of the Great Schism will quickly identify it as reflecting this passage in Jude. I think the same can be said of the Protestant Reformation.

God can write straight with crooked roads, though. He can made good come out of an evil situation. He is able to bring unity among us, and He will do so. It will happen faster and bring Him more glory if we work together with Him.

Good point.
I had forgotten about the Great Schism. (rather outside my experience and knowledge) But that created the Eastern and Western Catholic churches now known in English as Orthodox and Roman. Do they not still have recognition of mass in that a Roman Catholic can attend mass at an Orthodox Catholic church and it counts towards the Mass obligation?

Yes the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the valid holy orders and valid sacraments of the Orthodox, but they do not reciprocate this position. From an Orthodox perspective, the Bishop of Rome has separated from the True Catholic Church, and this separation has spawned the separation that now exists in Protestantism. They have the position that we need to reconcile that profligation of denominations before seeking union again with them.

The Catholic Church is part of the 34,000 denominaton count:

I can see how someone defining and categorizing might consider it one, but it is not. The CC is that from which all denominations extract themselves. They “take their name from” how much, and which parts, of Catholic doctrine they deny. The CC did not denominate from anyone.

Origin of DENOMINATE

Latin denominatus, past participle of denominare, from de- + nominare to name — First Known Use: circa 1552

The one thing that all Protestant ecclesial communities share is that they can all be traced back through history to the CC from whence they denominated. All denominations believe the CC has something “wrong”.

 

[hn160]

thank-you, that was what I heard as well, but haven’t looked up the documents. My understanding is that this joint declaration which was 30 years in the works was really a decapitation of what Luther taught on faith and works. It wasn’t that the Catholic Church compromised in this area but that the Lutherans groups involved moved to a more Catholic understanding. To quote this as some sign that Lutherans and Catholics are agreeing on something new is bogus at best because not all Lutherans were on board or even agreed with it and became another divisive issues again.

Amen! In order to have meaningful talks, Lutherans and Catholics have to be completely honest in their disagreements before there can be they can agree on anything.

 

[CopticChristian]

For all the LCMS Lutherans on this forum:

Batman,

I consulted with Robin about this…I was ready to become Lutheran after I read this…

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that something more than trust in Christ is necessary for us to be saved. It teaches that we are able to merit, through our works, eternal life for ourselves and others. We believe this teaching obscures the work of Jesus Christ and clouds the central message of the Bible

James says…

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The council of Trent says this…

CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received.
Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

Grace precedes Faith and Grace is the force by which the obedience of Faith produces works that are pleasing to God, for on our own we can do nothing…all preceeded by grace and when Paul says…

righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in **doing good **seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

But go back and see that Paul told you earlier in Romans…

5through whom **we have received grace/**B] and apostleship to bring about the **obedience of faith **among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Having received grace and by obedient Faith doing good, so that the good that you do or works is because of Grace that comes from Christ and you are rewarded because you are aided by grace not doing it on your own, because on your own you can do nothing…but by grace…God rewards you for doing what is pleasing and helps you to do it so that it is not you doing it alone but by grace you have been saved through obedient Faith…

now I can stay Catholic…

 

[CompSciGuy]

Christendom will never agree on the same final authority for the next 500 years. Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants understand that final authority comes from our same God. However, we disagree on how our God reveals His authority and will to His adopted children. Do you believe Christendom should be divided for the next 500 years in the same way that has been for the last 500 years?

Think about what you are saying. And think about it in context with the last 500 years.

From 33 A.D. until 1517 A.D. Christendom (for the most part) was united under one Church, which had authority, sacraments, traditions and scriptures, in other words the Catholic Church. This church did at the time and always had (rightly so) proclaimed that its teachings came from the apostles, and ultimately from Christ. However in 1517 there were very bad practices going on in the Church and Martin Luther and a few others broke away completely. They had no desire for unity, only to break away from what they believed was heresy. However in doing so they severed their unity with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church that Jesus founded (you may claim otherwise, but upon what are you basing your claims?) and they threw out much doctrine that was passed on to us in favor of their own doctrine and their own rules.

Fast forward about 500 years. You come on Catholic Answers and ask us: do you really want 500 more years of disunity? You tell me. Do you want disunity? The way you ask it, it is as if you think the problem is with us, as if it is up to us to change things and adapt to your standards. My friend, if you really want unity, then you have some work to do.

You say that we disagree on how God communicates his authority to us. Ok, what do you base your views upon? Do you believe that scripture alone is sufficient? Why do you believe this? This teaching is not from the apostles, it is from men. When you say you want unity… what is it you are really asking for? What does that even mean? I think many evangelical Christians who believe in unity despite doctrine will say that the extra traditions and teachings do not matter as long as you love Jesus and have a personal relationship with Him. Unity to many is to say that it doesn’t matter what “denomination” or church you belong to as long as you love Jesus, that it doesn’t matter if you are Catholic as long as you love Jesus. I’m sorry, I can’t say this, this is not unity, it is an injury against truth. Jesus came to establish one truth, one faith, and one Church. I can’t make any compromise or appeasement for the sake of “unity.” If you come to me and say that I need to do more for Christian unity, well, I have to say, the ball is in your court my friend. We’ve around for 2000 years, we’ve been waiting for about 500 for you guys to come around, so we’re not about to leave, when you are ready, you can come on home.

 

[CopticChristian]

Think about what you are saying. And think about it in context with the last 500 years.

From 33 A.D. until 1517 A.D. Christendom (for the most part) was united under one Church, which had authority, sacraments, traditions and scriptures, in other words the Catholic Church. This church did at the time and always had (rightly so) proclaimed that its teachings came from the apostles, and ultimately from Christ. However in 1517 there were very bad practices going on in the Church and Martin Luther and a few others broke away completely. They had no desire for unity, only to break away from what they believed was heresy. However in doing so they severed their unity with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church that Jesus founded (you may claim otherwise, but upon what are you basing your claims?) and they threw out much doctrine that was passed on to us in favor of their own doctrine and their own rules.

Fast forward about 500 years. You come on Catholic Answers and ask us: do you really want 500 more years of disunity? You tell me. Do you want disunity? The way you ask it, it is as if you think the problem is with us, as if it is up to us to change things and adapt to your standards. My friend, if you really want unity, then you have some work to do.

You say that we disagree on how God communicates his authority to us. Ok, what do you base your views upon? Do you believe that scripture alone is sufficient? Why do you believe this? This teaching is not from the apostles, it is from men. When you say you want unity… what is it you are really asking for? What does that even mean? I think many evangelical Christians who believe in unity despite doctrine will say that the extra traditions and teachings do not matter as long as you love Jesus and have a personal relationship with Him. Unity to many is to say that it doesn’t matter what “denomination” or church you belong to as long as you love Jesus, that it doesn’t matter if you are Catholic as long as you love Jesus. I’m sorry, I can’t say this, this is not unity, it is an injury against truth. Jesus came to establish one truth, one faith, and one Church. I can’t make any compromise or appeasement for the sake of “unity.” If you come to me and say that I need to do more for Christian unity, well, I have to say, the ball is in your court my friend. We’ve around for 2000 years, we’ve been waiting for about 500 for you guys to come around, so we’re not about to leave, when you are ready, you can come on home.

Comp,

I don’t think CU understands how some time tables work…

The Nestorian Heresy in the 5th Century is well known…and that was 1500 years ago…these later became known as the Assyrian Church…

The Vatican appointed a patriarch to Diyarbakir to govern the Assyrians who stayed loyal to the Holy See. This became known as the Chaldean Catholic Church, an Eastern Catholic body. In 1804 the hereditary line of Patriarchs in Alqosh died out, and that church’s hierarchy decided to accept the authority of the Chaldean patriarchs.

Now it took 1500 years for the Nestorians of yesterday, heretics at the time to assimilate into the OHCAC…at least in part…

So what is 500 years in the timetable of the break of Protestant thought…wait another 1000 to see what happens…look at what happened to Nestorius…

 

[guanophore]

 The source that I quoted is secular which are always the best sources to quote when discussing  theological issues like these.

I find this an absurd assertion. What would possibly ever make you think such a thing?

There is no bigger misrepresentation of the facts than can be found in secular media when it comes to Christianity. How could a secular source possibly understand the theological distinctives that denominate Christian communities?

How is the number of denominations a “theological issue”?

 I don't think you can find a secular source that does not link the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church as being part of the overall 34,000 denominational mix.

Well, of course not! Most secular sources have NO IDEA about the history of the Christian church. And you have already correctly noted that most Christians don’t either!

Remember the thread topic… one Christian Faith that is divided. The Geat Schism was a bad divide too which still applies today.

In general I would say that all divisions in the Body of Christ are bad.

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been reported to me by Chlo’e’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

I think for a movement toward unity, we first need to define Christendom. What are the essential minimum doctrines which you would consider Christian in this thread?

This is a very telling statement. You are right, of course, in order to preserve the unity, definitions need to occur. This is what the Church did with councils and creeds. During the Reformation, concepts were created and redefined to the extent that the framers of those councils and creeds would no longer recognize or accept them.

Another phenomena that occurred during the Reformation is this idea of “essential minimal doctrines”. This is not a concept that would be recognizeable by the Apostles, who has a “whole” faith (as opposed to a readers digest version).

What you are proposing has already been done by those to whom God granted His authority to complete it. The idea that it can, or should, be done again by us seems rather arrogant.

 I personally use the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed for that purpose.

Yes, but you understand some of the words quite differently than the people who wrote the Creeds.

 

[guanophore]

 I think the CCC already made an acknowledgement of what the Catholic Church defines as being Christian.  In regards to Protestants, a valid baptism in a Triune formula would receive the title of separated brethren.

I am not sure it can be considered a “title” (as if it were some kind of honor). The state of being separated is quite serious, and nothing to brag about. I think you agree that separations do not glorify God, or else you would not have chosen the pen name you did. You also keep starting threads which seem to be directed toward closing the separation, which would seem to indicate that you believe unity would be better than separation.

Submitting to the Magestrium and embracing the Eucharist belief are not requirements of being Christian according to my understanding of the official Catholic doctrine.

Perhaps if you remain on CAF your understanding of “official Catholic doctrine” will improve?

These two items you note are part of the reason separation exists. They are part of the reason the unity created by baptism is called “imperfect”.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

Christian unity is acknowledging our differences and understanding them, without requiring others to believe just like you.

No, this is a false definition of unity. Unity is defined by Christ:

John 17:11-17
Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one…I have given them thy word… Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

Unity is the fruit of adherance to the Truth. You have rightly stated that we all believe that unity is found in the Word of God, but we have differences in how we understand and access that Word. Catholics are not at liberty to change or abandon the Word of Truth we received from the Apostles, even to appear to get along better with our separated brethren.

There are 2.2 billion Christians in this world, and we are discussing unity among all of them, in comparison to separation and disunity based on our particular theological distinctive.

The Apostles taught that “theological distinctives” that depart from what we received from them constitute “a different gospel” which we are under apostolic command to reject. I do agree that obedience to such a commandment does cause separation and disunity.

1 Cor 11:19-20
there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

The Apostles left us signs to know and recognize the One Church founded by Christ.\

Do you consider Protestants baptized in the triune formula to be separated siblings in Christ with the same Heavenly Father?

Yes, albeit an imperfect unity, we are made members one of another through baptism.

If you believe that unity in this world requires submission to the Magestrium and receiving the Eucharist, then in regards to the thread topic, it seems you don’t mind having the same division for the next 500 years.

No, CU, your erroneous conclusion is based upon a false premise. the fact that we expereince separation with brethren who reject the Teachings of the Apostles does not mean we “don’t mind” it. Every Christian suffers because of such wounds to unity. Insulting us because we cannot abandon our faith does not create unity either.

It is not a solution to say that all 2.2 billion Christians need to become Catholic for unity in this life.

Well, it may not seem like a solution to you, but this is Jesus’ solution. One flock, one shepherd, One faith, One Church. He founded ONE. Unity comes from adherance to the Truth. Any separation from Truth will create disunity.

 

[joe370]

guanophore

Yes the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the valid holy orders and valid sacraments of the Orthodox, but they do not reciprocate this position. From an Orthodox perspective, the Bishop of Rome has separated from the True Catholic Church, and this separation has spawned the separation that now exists in Protestantism. They have the position that we need to reconcile that profligation of denominations before seeking union again with them.

Wow, I was totally unaware of the part in bold. If that is one of their conditions…

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Do you believe Catholics and Protestants have the same God? If so, can both Christian groups share the gospel to those who do not know God through Jesus Christ? I don’t think Protestants believe they are disobedient to God by not submitting to the Magisterium. It seems Protestants and Catholics have a much bigger agenda than just making our society and world a better place. It seems we both share the common goal of obedience to the Great Commission in how we understand the Christian Faith according to our Christian conscience. These are just thoughts to think and ponder on.

Much of what protestants teach contradicts what Jesus Christ Himself taught to His Apostles, who were the first Bishops of the Catholic Church (with St. Peter being the first Bishop of Rome, ie Pope). I don’t wish to offend any protestants by saying this, but 100% of protestantism is man made. There is not a protestant group out there that can’t be traced to a man or woman somewhere in recent to semi recent history. The Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church alone, can trace our history all the way back to the Apostles themselves and through them, to Jesus Christ Himself. Catholicism is Scripturally supported and historically proven. And why wouldn’t it be? Scriptures were created by the Catholic Church. Guided by the Holy Spirit, compiled by the Church. Christ created One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He instituted the Sacraments and offers Himself continuously as the Holy Eucharist. He does this for all His children. There will be true unity when the heresy of protestantism is ended. Now I’m not saying protestants are heretics. Please differentiate this right now. The protestant beliefs that all protestant religions are founded on, are heresies. This is historically proven and can’t be refuted. It’s not about “my opinion” versus “their opinion”. This is fact. Eventually, all will return to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Realistically won’t happen in any of our lifetimes, but it WILL happen.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure if I follow? How would a unity with the east Orthodox and west Catholic make Protestants want to follow such a movement?

The matter of authority, as you have correctly noted, is a major dividing factor on all fronts of our separations. If the Catholic Church were to resolve this with our other lung, many historically creedal and confessional Protestants would accept the result and would return.

When unity occurs, those who are in Christ are attracted to that work of the HS. Those Protestants who are amenable to the unifying work of the HS are drawn toward such reconciliation.

I owned a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church about 15 years ago, and read quite a bit of it.

Why?

 I'm not still protesting just like most Protestants.

LOL. How do “most Protestants” protest?

You protest just fine around here. Each of your threads are very consistently Protestant and contain specific “protests”.

We simply believe differently without protesting with those siblings who believe differently.

Do you know the origin of the term “protest”?

For unity within the Christian family of God of adopted sinners, I don’t think we have to agree on everything, do you?

No. Only matters of faith and morals. Politics and sports can contain any degree of disagreement.

I think it is strange for you to say that I separated from the Catholic Church, considering I am only 51 years old and never belonged to the Catholic Church in the first place.

There is only one baptism, and that baptism joins the individual with the One Body.

The Reformation occured 500 years ago, and most non-Catholic Christians had nothing to do with it.

I think it is safe to say that NONE of those living today had anything to do with it. It is also true that most non-Catholics, as you have observed, know anything about the history of their faith. That is why modern day Protestants cannot qualify for the terms heretic, or apostate. You cannot depart from that which you never embraced.

In a call for unity with the entire body of Christ … I am not asking to be in union with the Catholic Church.

So it seems that you are asking us to become Protestant in faith so that we can be in union with you?

Can you please explain why the CCC calls me separated brethren in Christ?

You have been joined to Christ in baptism, yet your union is imperfect, because you reject some of His Teachings.

In my understanding of Scripture, our vital union with Christ is everything. There is no reference in Scripture which makes a requirement to be a member of a particular church, branch, or denomination to be in the body of Christ.

Yes, being united to Christ means you are also united to His One Body, the Church. It is more a “fact” than a “requirement”. Jesus identifies Himself completely with His Holy Bride. To the extent you reject your membership in His One Church, you reject Him. Luke 10:16

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I was on a Protestant site in which a Protestant quoted a whole bunch of Church Fathers to defend sola scriptura. Instead of reading the Church Fathers, I prefer reading letters and gospel accounts by the Apostles.

One can cherry pick verse out of the Fathers, or out of the NT. The reason the Fathers help us understand the meaning of Scripture is because they were brought up by the writers of the NT, and their discipleship was much closer to them. Their writings represent what they were taught.

Thanks for sharing staunch Catholic theology.  I know of other Catholics who do not take this stance.

You are right that there are plenty of poorly catechized, lukewarm, and rebellious Catholics. Personally, I think they have become Protestant, but don’t realize it. The One Faith is whole, and it is not permissible to pick and choose which parts one wants to believe, and reject the ones that make their ears itch.

Let’s go back to the thread topic, and discuss movement toward the unity called by John 17. It is not even worth discussing if you would expect all non-Catholics to become Catholics to move toward unity.

Oh no? And why is that?

When the Pope spoke positively about Martin Luther and faith alone, then that’s movement toward Christian unity. When Catholics promoted ECT 1 and ECT 2, that’s also movement toward unity. When certain Catholics and Lutherans signed the Joint Declaration on justification, then that’s a movement toward Christian unity. How can we move toward additional unity as siblings in Christ who understand some of these issues very differently?

These documents clear up misunderstandings about the Catholic faith. They are movements toward unity because all parties accept the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles. You seem to want us to abandon that faith, so that we can give the appearance of a unity that does not exist.

 

[MotoCatholic]

Much of what protestants teach contradicts what Jesus Christ Himself taught to His Apostles, who were the first Bishops of the Catholic Church (with St. Peter being the first Bishop of Rome, ie Pope). I don’t wish to offend any protestants by saying this, but 100% of protestantism is man made. There is not a protestant group out there that can’t be traced to a man or woman somewhere in recent to semi recent history. The Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church alone, can trace our history all the way back to the Apostles themselves and through them, to Jesus Christ Himself. Catholicism is Scripturally supported and historically proven. And why wouldn’t it be? Scriptures were created by the Catholic Church. Guided by the Holy Spirit, compiled by the Church. Christ created One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He instituted the Sacraments and offers Himself continuously as the Holy Eucharist. He does this for all His children. There will be true unity when the heresy of protestantism is ended. Now I’m not saying protestants are heretics. Please differentiate this right now. The protestant beliefs that all protestant religions are founded on, are heresies. This is historically proven and can’t be refuted. It’s not about “my opinion” versus “their opinion”. This is fact. Eventually, all will return to Christ in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Realistically won’t happen in any of our lifetimes, but it WILL happen.

Take away all the Ph.D-level theological discussions, all the ultra-fine splitting of scriptural hairs, and this is exactly right. This explains why my protestant friends simply can’t admit that ANYTHING in Catholic church is true-it points to this obvious and profound problem of validity. It’s why they all repeatedly say to me “Christ said religion is bad,” “Christ meant an invisible church of all believers,” “of course Peter wasn’t THE rock,” “do you not realize that keys to the kingdom had nothing to do with starting the Catholic church and especially not something called the papacy?” “Christ intended Christianity to spread through all the world, he said so, he never intended it to be under one church-it doesn’t matter…”

They have nothing else to stand on, and that’s not standing on much. They simply can’t admit to any truth in the Catholic church, because they know (or have simply never considered) that they’re standing on a foundation of dust. Still, I’ll say again that some of my protestant friends are the best Christians that I know. I’ll pray for unity until it happens.

 

[guanophore]

Your statement makes me think you appeal to authority. Not something I’m fond of . . .but different strokes for different stroke.

Have a good day.

If you wish to have good days, XRU, you may wish to reconsider your attitude about authority:

Rom 13:1-3
For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

You claim to be a follower of Christ, so maybe a little word study of Scripture on the word “authority” may shape your “strokes”?

I don't dislike this thread perse . . . sorry if I gave this impression. What I dislike is Catholics, Protestants, and other religions being snarky toward each other. There are better things to do than moan about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. We've had our wars. Time to come together.

You are right, we should all strive to have charity one for another, but charity does not confirm others in their errors. Love requires Truth, and pretending that significant diffrerences do not exist does not promote unity. It only denies the problem.

Also, I do have a fairly high opinion of the Catholic Church . . . certainly a higher opinion than I do of the Calvinists, lol. Just a small joke there.

Welcome to CAF. I am sure you will be able to find some topics/threads you enjoy.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can ask you with equal conviction who you are to judge me.

BTW, get real. We all make decisions based on a complicated system of reason and rationals as to what and who we will believe. Just because some great theologian talks trash, if he talks trash, I should believe him? Your statement makes me think you appeal to authority. Not something I’m fond of . . .but different strokes for different stroke.

Have a good day.

Oops have to edit . . . sorry. Didn’t see a question. I don’t dislike this thread perse . . . sorry if I gave this impression. What I dislike is Catholics, Protestants, and other religions being snarky toward each other. There are better things to do than moan about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. We’ve had our wars. Time to come together.

BTW, I don’t NOT like the OP just some of the comments. Also, I do have a fairly high opinion of the Catholic Church . . . certainly a higher opinion than I do of the Calvinists, lol. Just a small joke there.

XRU,

You don’t like Protestants and Catholics and other religions being snarky and you have an opinion of Calvinists…

What is it you believe?

How did you come to believe that?

What do you base this belief on?

Thank you

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think the issue of final authority will be resolved on this side of glory.

I think it is interesting that you claim to believe in irresistable grace, and yet, you make statements like this that seem to indicate that you also believe the stubborness and pride of man (that which causes the separations) are more powerful than the grace of God to fix them.

Unity doesn't mean you have to give up your beliefs.

I think you are kidding yourself here, CU. You have rightly observed that we have contradictory beliefs about the nature of authority that cannot be reconciled with one another. For us (and the Orthodox), Lutherans and Anglicans unity centers around the Real Presence in the Eucharist. We are forbidden to commune with those who do not hold this Apostolic Teaching.

It is more about understanding and respecting the other camps beliefs, yet holding on to your own theological distinctive which makes you Catholic, or whatever Christian circle you identify with. I’ve seen pictures of Civil Rights marching with Catholics and Protestants side by side.

Working together for social justice is a good thing, and all persons of any faith who can united for such issues is commendable. This is not the same as unity in the Body of Christ. The former is a unity of purpose and action, the latter is a unity of being.

I think John 17 is not so much about social issues unity, but rather it is unity about the gospel and the Christian message to the unbelieving world.

Yes, we are in agreement on that point. However, Catholics believe that such unity emanates OUT of adherance to Truth, and cannot be achieved in any other way. For such unity, there can be no “doctrinal distinctives”.

1 Tim 1:3
3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine

The Apostles taught their succesors, the Bishops, that heterodoxy (doctrinal distinctives) are not allowed. This is the unbroken teaching we have received from them, and are obligated to maintain.

2 Cor 11:3-4
4 For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel …

Gal 1:6-9
7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

We are not at liberty to receive “doctrinal distinctives” that were invented during the Reformation.

 

[asd72]

Take away all the Ph.D-level theological discussions, all the ultra-fine splitting of scriptural hairs, and this is exactly right. This explains why my protestant friends simply can’t admit that ANYTHING in Catholic church is true-it points to this obvious and profound problem of validity. It’s why they all repeatedly say to me “Christ said religion is bad,” “Christ meant an invisible church of all believers,” “of course Peter wasn’t THE rock,” “do you not realize that keys to the kingdom had nothing to do with starting the Catholic church and especially not something called the papacy?” “Christ intended Christianity to spread through all the world, he said so, he never intended it to be under one church-it doesn’t matter…”

They have nothing else to stand on, and that’s not standing on much. They simply can’t admit to any truth in the Catholic church, because they know (or have simply never considered) that they’re standing on a foundation of dust. Still, I’ll say again that some of my protestant friends are the best Christians that I know. I’ll pray for unity until it happens.

What you have written is true of the extreme edge of fundamentalist Christianity, which is often anti Catholic.

We have in the recent posts been challenging some of the assertions in the Lutheran LCMS statement on why they did not sign on the join agreement on Justification. These are Christians who we have a lot in common with, and I think I can speak for everyone here in saying the LCMS members at Catholic Answers are some of the most respected and respectful members here. We have to be careful not to lump all Protestants together.

 

[wanabesaint]

these posts have to set a standard for intelects being , interesting.
First, much of what came of the creation of the christian communities was the elimination of TRADITIOIN that the Cathlic faith was built on, and chumped out the Bilbe collection from a pilitira of writings that were sifted through…

but where would the Universal church be without the Bible, and were would we be if the Catholic boy hadnt invented the printing press?

To be blunt, the Catholic Universal Church was founded on the rock of Peter, Amen

and it sticks to the that which says it will prevail till the end of time…

community christian churchs are like the path to hell, in that they in ignorance are founded on a fault finding mentallity, which is mortal sin that seperates those that do, from God. so, it pretty tough to expect people to say, OK, we wont fault find any more because in the wisdom of the Universal Church that holds intergrity, clarity and honesty, we see that the issue is wrong, and we willl stop it.
and boom, thats the end of the whole problem , if faultfinding, that is a sin is wrong, the foundation of the christian community churchs ceased to exist, and to then again accpet the Tradition that started it all, puts people back on track to accpeting God in the Eucarist, same as the Jewish recognized that the ark was the direct presence of God, today we have through Jesus Communion.

boom, problem solved, all in recognizing two issues, fault finding is wrong, and not a real foundation for a real church of God, and real Presence of God in Eucarist.

Line up and come on in, the water is fine. and eternal life is at hand.

 

[CopticChristian]

these posts have to set a standard for intelects being , interesting.
First, much of what came of the creation of the christian communities was the elimination of TRADITIOIN that the Cathlic faith was built on, and chumped out the Bilbe collection from a pilitira of writings that were sifted through…

but where would the Universal church be without the Bible, and were would we be if the Catholic boy hadnt invented the printing press?

To be blunt, the Catholic Universal Church was founded on the rock of Peter, Amen

and it sticks to the that which says it will prevail till the end of time…

community christian churchs are like the path to hell, in that they in ignorance are founded on a fault finding mentallity, which is mortal sin that seperates those that do, from God. so, it pretty tough to expect people to say, OK, we wont fault find any more because in the wisdom of the Universal Church that holds intergrity, clarity and honesty, we see that the issue is wrong, and we willl stop it.
and boom, thats the end of the whole problem , if faultfinding, that is a sin is wrong, the foundation of the christian community churchs ceased to exist, and to then again accpet the Tradition that started it all, puts people back on track to accpeting God in the Eucarist, same as the Jewish recognized that the ark was the direct presence of God, today we have through Jesus Communion.

boom, problem solved, all in recognizing two issues, fault finding is wrong, and not a real foundation for a real church of God, and real Presence of God in Eucarist.

Line up and come on in, the water is fine. and eternal life is at hand.

Wannabe,

I suggest you study the Saints, read about the saints, model the saints if you wannabe…and if you wanna attract those that have seperated be consistent in your thoughts about those that are not united…

The Catholic Church retains the structures of episcopal leadership and sacramental life that are the gift of Christ to his Church (cf. CCC, nos. 765, 766) and that date back to apostolic times. At the same time, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Holy Spirit uses other churches and ecclesial communities “as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church” (CCC, no. 819; LG, no. 8). Depending on what and how much of the elements of sanctincation and truth (UR, no. 3) these communities have retained, they have a certain though imperfect com¬munion with the Catholic Church. There are also real differences.

The Church teaches other than what you say and to be consistent we all need to be transformed by the renewal of our mind and be not conformed to the world and its opinions…the deposit of Faith and the teaching is that as you say through ignorance and other modalities seperation exists however to condemn is contrary to what the OHCAC teaches…

Would you consider reframing your thinking to conform to the teaching?

 

[Sarcelle]

The problem with this is that, when two side claiming to represent the same God present conflicting views and opinions on the same Scripture, people don’t take the Scriptures seriously and therefore do not gain the benefits of them. This is why the Catholic Church exists. This is why the Magesterium exists, and this is why the protestants will never be doing as much good as they -could- be doing if they were to realign themselves with the one True Church that Jesus Christ himself started.

They may not think it, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t. You can say 2+2 is five all you want, it’ll still be four at the end of the day.

This is more than just two sides.

There are conflicting views of God in the Protestant side alone, the fruits of Sola Scriptura.

 

[rfournier103]

The various Protestant churches owe their existance to rebellion and disagreement.
If we cannot come to agreement on doctrine how can we have unity?

With the protestant reformations, they all made a choice to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church in favor of their own interpretations. Had they left it at “let’s clean up the corruption,” it wouldn’t have been a big deal; but instead they decided “hey, let’s change the meanings of some of this, and take out some books that disagree with us, so that the Bible will suit our interpretation of it.”

That’s the underlying logic behind every protestant sect, ever.

I TOTALLY AGREE. Let’s look at the facts.

~Fact: For 1,500 years EVERY SINGLE Christian believed the same doctrines and dogmas. Even the Roman/Latin Church and the Eastern Churches all agreed on Transubstansiation, Original Sin, Purgatory, etc… (the Schism is a whole different animal than the Reformation) Agreed?

~Fact: Every single Protestant ecclesiastical community is the direct result of someone, somewhere, REJECTING the Roman Catholic Church, it’s authority, MANY of it’s teachings, AND thereby removing their “ministers” from the Apostolic Succession. Agreed?

~Fact: Many Protestants today reject Transubstansiation, the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the 73 book Bible, Original Sin, Purgatory, prayer for the dead, and that His Holiness and all his predecessors are successors to the Chief of the Apostles (Peter, for those of you who do not know). Agreed?

With all that being said… the way I see it, the ONLY path to unity is this:

1. The Roman Catholic Church agrees to welcome back all Protestants with open arms.
2. All the Protestants agree to accept and abide by all doctrines, dogmas, laws, and customs of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestants walked away from Catholicism in a huff. The Catholic Church DID reform itself after the Protestant Reformation. Did the Church need to fix things? Absolutely. I think the Church held up IT’S end of the bargain. It IS time to end the division, and we are waiting… :hug1:

 

[KathleenGee]

Rfournier,

I back up your post 100%.

The author of communion is Christ. To encounter authentic communion in Christ, we must totally renounce ourselves, including our way of looking at things, and to become obedient to Him through the Church.

Our self-will is the greatest obstacle to growth in Christ.