You are very kind. I consider it an honor that you would call me a brother in Christ.
Jon
Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?
- Status
Jon
Steve,
May I join you in this praise and adulation…perhaps we should start a thread with a poll about John NC…don’t bother …it will have a resounding Amen…and John will undobtedly answer…
Pshaw…
shaw:The fact is that charity begets charity. That I am welcome and well-treated in charity here these years makes being chritable an easy task, indeed.
Thanks for your kindness.
Jon
A
adf417
Guest
I will have to high five dat too!:aok: I don’t converse much here but I must say I do like to read Jon’s stuff.
S
stewstew03
Guest
A toast to Jon in NC!
The fact is that charity begets charity. That I am welcome and well-treated in charity here these years makes being chritable an easy task, indeed.
Thanks for your kindness.
Jon
:tiphat:
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
S
stewstew03
Guest
:yup:
H
Happy_B
Guest
Here is my view:
PART 1:
As God never intended for the Christianity to be divided, he will SOON unite it into one faith as He wants His people to be ‘One’ - in John 17:21 Jesus is concerned about the future fractured Christianity, when he prays: “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one —I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” Does this sound like Jesus wanting us to be divided into 30,000 protestant denominations or muslims, buddhists, sikhs, etc.? Not really and we can be sure that God will restore His unity onto Earth as is written in the Bible.
I personally think, that the Christians of today cannot be blamed for what happened in the past (be it the reformation or great schism) and so today’s Christians won’t be held responsible for what happened in the past – everyone will be held responsible for their own actions and intentions in the context of their beliefs. However, at the end everyone will eventually have to account for their actions according to the “key performance indicators” originally set out by God because His rules never change and only those who qualify will go to Heaven. As God is ever merciful, He will give people one more chance to adjust their perceptions of God (30,000 protestant denominations won’t work here) and it will be during the Great Tribulation.
The Great Tribulation will be something like a test for us to see if we qualify for God’s Kindgdom. Considering how many opportunities we’ve already had as humanity and haven’t used them, we can all be sure that this exam will be everything but easy! So we won’t be held accountable for the mistakes of the past generations, but on the other hand we will be tested harder as we had the “luxury” of our various faiths just passing onto us from previous generations, not making any efforts in restoring the truth and kept persisting on the divisions (this is how the course of human history developed, but hey ho)!
People have had choices to decide however they want, they have been given graces to use them or not. The protestant Christians have chosen not to use the many graces the God has given to the Church (especially the sacraments that God gave us so we can get closer to Him and become holier) which is fine, just a bit shame that they haven’t had a chance to experience their amazing Divine power which has been designed to help us in life and for our salvation. That’s fine. But God will “categorise” all the people according to their faith and perception of God.
In the Book of Revelation st John refers to four groups who will reign with Jesus during the Millenium and he refers to these groups as ‘blessed’ four times and each time he is describing a different group which you and I must belong to if we hope to survive and not end up in hell. First time St John refers to a blessed is in Rev 14:13. The rest of these mentions are in chapters 6-20.
These four groups of people are:
1. The Raptured - (who will be spared all horrors of Tribulation and taken to ‘some’ place. Might these be the faithful Protestant christians?). In Rev 19:9 Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. It means that it might be that the role of Protestantism will be complete by that time and will have to be removed in order to continue with the rest of the plan.
The Raptured are being referred to as ‘musicians’ and described to be singing a new song (Rev 14:3) and harpists playing their harps (Rev 14:2). We all know that the Protestants are known for their singing activities and for their worship with music and song. This doesn’t mean that the Catholics or other groups of people won’t be in this group.
The Book of Revelation also says that this group will sing “a new canticle” or ‘‘new song’’. “New” means – so far unheard and they will sing it to the Glory of God in their “new” state after the rapture. The raptured christians will reign with Christ on the new earth. Though, they will be tested once more at the end of it (after 1000 years), where they will have to prove “their works” as the “faith alone” will not save them in the final judgment as St John says: “they were judged according to their works”. When they live on the new earth, we can assume that all people will be super saints and their perception of God and faith will probably also change (most probably to their advantage) so they will be judged on more strict criteria.
2. The Protected in the desert - who will survive the Great Tribulationa and the wrath of God. ''If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days’’ (Mark 13:20). This suggests, that not everyone will be raptured. But the ‘elect’ here might refer to those who will be ‘protected’ and for them the Lord will shorten the days. In Rev 16:15 -* Behold, I am coming like a thief.”- Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his clothes ready, so that he may not go naked and people see him exposed.* Watching here means praying (might it be the rosary?) and might clothes refer to the scapular? Questions to think about…
PART 1:
As God never intended for the Christianity to be divided, he will SOON unite it into one faith as He wants His people to be ‘One’ - in John 17:21 Jesus is concerned about the future fractured Christianity, when he prays: “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one —I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” Does this sound like Jesus wanting us to be divided into 30,000 protestant denominations or muslims, buddhists, sikhs, etc.? Not really and we can be sure that God will restore His unity onto Earth as is written in the Bible.
I personally think, that the Christians of today cannot be blamed for what happened in the past (be it the reformation or great schism) and so today’s Christians won’t be held responsible for what happened in the past – everyone will be held responsible for their own actions and intentions in the context of their beliefs. However, at the end everyone will eventually have to account for their actions according to the “key performance indicators” originally set out by God because His rules never change and only those who qualify will go to Heaven. As God is ever merciful, He will give people one more chance to adjust their perceptions of God (30,000 protestant denominations won’t work here) and it will be during the Great Tribulation.
The Great Tribulation will be something like a test for us to see if we qualify for God’s Kindgdom. Considering how many opportunities we’ve already had as humanity and haven’t used them, we can all be sure that this exam will be everything but easy! So we won’t be held accountable for the mistakes of the past generations, but on the other hand we will be tested harder as we had the “luxury” of our various faiths just passing onto us from previous generations, not making any efforts in restoring the truth and kept persisting on the divisions (this is how the course of human history developed, but hey ho)!
People have had choices to decide however they want, they have been given graces to use them or not. The protestant Christians have chosen not to use the many graces the God has given to the Church (especially the sacraments that God gave us so we can get closer to Him and become holier) which is fine, just a bit shame that they haven’t had a chance to experience their amazing Divine power which has been designed to help us in life and for our salvation. That’s fine. But God will “categorise” all the people according to their faith and perception of God.
In the Book of Revelation st John refers to four groups who will reign with Jesus during the Millenium and he refers to these groups as ‘blessed’ four times and each time he is describing a different group which you and I must belong to if we hope to survive and not end up in hell. First time St John refers to a blessed is in Rev 14:13. The rest of these mentions are in chapters 6-20.
These four groups of people are:
1. The Raptured - (who will be spared all horrors of Tribulation and taken to ‘some’ place. Might these be the faithful Protestant christians?). In Rev 19:9 Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. It means that it might be that the role of Protestantism will be complete by that time and will have to be removed in order to continue with the rest of the plan.
The Raptured are being referred to as ‘musicians’ and described to be singing a new song (Rev 14:3) and harpists playing their harps (Rev 14:2). We all know that the Protestants are known for their singing activities and for their worship with music and song. This doesn’t mean that the Catholics or other groups of people won’t be in this group.
The Book of Revelation also says that this group will sing “a new canticle” or ‘‘new song’’. “New” means – so far unheard and they will sing it to the Glory of God in their “new” state after the rapture. The raptured christians will reign with Christ on the new earth. Though, they will be tested once more at the end of it (after 1000 years), where they will have to prove “their works” as the “faith alone” will not save them in the final judgment as St John says: “they were judged according to their works”. When they live on the new earth, we can assume that all people will be super saints and their perception of God and faith will probably also change (most probably to their advantage) so they will be judged on more strict criteria.
2. The Protected in the desert - who will survive the Great Tribulationa and the wrath of God. ''If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days’’ (Mark 13:20). This suggests, that not everyone will be raptured. But the ‘elect’ here might refer to those who will be ‘protected’ and for them the Lord will shorten the days. In Rev 16:15 -* Behold, I am coming like a thief.”- Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his clothes ready, so that he may not go naked and people see him exposed.* Watching here means praying (might it be the rosary?) and might clothes refer to the scapular? Questions to think about…
H
Happy_B
Guest
PART 2:
3. The Martyred - (who will die for God and it will be MANY of them, like we’ve never see before - first reference is in Rev 14:13 - those who die in the Lord. These will live through all the unimaginable horrors and will die a violent death by the hand of Antichrist; it will be a true crucifixion with Christ. Which christian group will be most ready to die for the Lord? We will certainly see. These martyrs are described as “the souls that are beheaded”, and in 14:9-13 as “dead” and they have three (number of fullness=an utter, “divine” truth) characteristics:
But really, these martyrs will die within approx. 7 years of the reign of Antichrist.
Now let’s think - the whole world knows what horrific things Hitler and Henry VIII did when they killed and tortured people during their reigns. However, we have to get ready for the fact that Hitler and Henry VIII will look like amateurs when compared to how the Antichrist will be killing Christians. It’s suggested that the pope who will be the head of the catholic church during the reign of the Antichrist (who will most probably be also in hiding) might start preaching a dogma, that those who die by the hand of Antichrist will be rewarded with a special reward – to reign with Christ for 1000 years on new earth (it’s just a suggestion and you never know, it might happen). This might be the only consolation for these people who will undergo these horrific trials! The idea of dying in lion’s teeth or have a head chopped off, or skin peeled off (just imagine anything worse than WW2 concentration camps), sounds quite terrifying and it will require a lot of unshaken faith to be able to undertake it! Who will be brave from us catholics to undergo this, friends? Remember, we all must be crucified with Christ, there is no other way when we want to follow Him…
4. The Saved - (might these be the conveted Jews? Rev 20:6 says: Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for thousand years. Might priests of God refer to the Old Testament priests (i.e. The Jews) who converted to christianity (as they are now also priests ‘of Christ’ as per the above)?
St John enumerates 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel who will be servants of God signed on their foreheads (with the mark of the cross) thanks to which the plagues of God’s wrath will leave them untouched.
If you look it up you’ll notice that many Jews have started converting to Chritianity, we have to remember and must never forget that the Jews ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE and will be the chosen people to the very end, a nation set apart, as they have a special mission here on earth). Of course, not all the Jews will convert to Christianity, some – probably the majority, will follow the Antichrist and will be cast into hell with him. By this the Judaism as we know it today will also be removed from earth).
- The rest who will be the unbelievers and follwers of the Antichrist - i.e. all those who will take the mark of the beast and will die at the defeat of the Antichrist by God.
With regards to the Orthodox christians, who are not in communion with the Pope - we can only assume that those of them, who won’t take the mark of the beast will be either converted to catholicism in their heart and thus will die as martyrs, will be saved in the desert or might be raptured with the protestants. The same will apply to other religions, such as muslims, buddhists, etc. Whoever will take the mark of the beast and will follow the antichrist, however, be it catholic, protestant or muslim, will be cast into hell.
Thus, at the end (after Armageddon), ALL religions will be removed from the earth and Jesus will replace them with ONE united faith – the one that was supposed to be on earth from the beginning.
So all world religions will ‘‘disappear’’, you never know how people will feel during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will be the most horrific event that the humanity has ever experienced and you never know how people might change their hearts. It might happen instantly that people might convert to the catholic faith.
The question is not whether we believe that these horrific things will come, but whether we’re ready because they are coming.
So to answer the question - do we really want another 500 years division between catholics and protestants? No and neither God does. We should all gather as much unshakable faith as possibly we can while we still have time and while we still live in relative peace when we things are easy. Soon the things won’t be so easy and those who won’t have an unshaken faith won’t survive.
3. The Martyred - (who will die for God and it will be MANY of them, like we’ve never see before - first reference is in Rev 14:13 - those who die in the Lord. These will live through all the unimaginable horrors and will die a violent death by the hand of Antichrist; it will be a true crucifixion with Christ. Which christian group will be most ready to die for the Lord? We will certainly see. These martyrs are described as “the souls that are beheaded”, and in 14:9-13 as “dead” and they have three (number of fullness=an utter, “divine” truth) characteristics:
- They die in the Lord
- They rest from the Labours
- Their works follow them
But really, these martyrs will die within approx. 7 years of the reign of Antichrist.
Now let’s think - the whole world knows what horrific things Hitler and Henry VIII did when they killed and tortured people during their reigns. However, we have to get ready for the fact that Hitler and Henry VIII will look like amateurs when compared to how the Antichrist will be killing Christians. It’s suggested that the pope who will be the head of the catholic church during the reign of the Antichrist (who will most probably be also in hiding) might start preaching a dogma, that those who die by the hand of Antichrist will be rewarded with a special reward – to reign with Christ for 1000 years on new earth (it’s just a suggestion and you never know, it might happen). This might be the only consolation for these people who will undergo these horrific trials! The idea of dying in lion’s teeth or have a head chopped off, or skin peeled off (just imagine anything worse than WW2 concentration camps), sounds quite terrifying and it will require a lot of unshaken faith to be able to undertake it! Who will be brave from us catholics to undergo this, friends? Remember, we all must be crucified with Christ, there is no other way when we want to follow Him…
4. The Saved - (might these be the conveted Jews? Rev 20:6 says: Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for thousand years. Might priests of God refer to the Old Testament priests (i.e. The Jews) who converted to christianity (as they are now also priests ‘of Christ’ as per the above)?
St John enumerates 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel who will be servants of God signed on their foreheads (with the mark of the cross) thanks to which the plagues of God’s wrath will leave them untouched.
If you look it up you’ll notice that many Jews have started converting to Chritianity, we have to remember and must never forget that the Jews ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE and will be the chosen people to the very end, a nation set apart, as they have a special mission here on earth). Of course, not all the Jews will convert to Christianity, some – probably the majority, will follow the Antichrist and will be cast into hell with him. By this the Judaism as we know it today will also be removed from earth).
- The rest who will be the unbelievers and follwers of the Antichrist - i.e. all those who will take the mark of the beast and will die at the defeat of the Antichrist by God.
With regards to the Orthodox christians, who are not in communion with the Pope - we can only assume that those of them, who won’t take the mark of the beast will be either converted to catholicism in their heart and thus will die as martyrs, will be saved in the desert or might be raptured with the protestants. The same will apply to other religions, such as muslims, buddhists, etc. Whoever will take the mark of the beast and will follow the antichrist, however, be it catholic, protestant or muslim, will be cast into hell.
Thus, at the end (after Armageddon), ALL religions will be removed from the earth and Jesus will replace them with ONE united faith – the one that was supposed to be on earth from the beginning.
So all world religions will ‘‘disappear’’, you never know how people will feel during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation will be the most horrific event that the humanity has ever experienced and you never know how people might change their hearts. It might happen instantly that people might convert to the catholic faith.
The question is not whether we believe that these horrific things will come, but whether we’re ready because they are coming.
So to answer the question - do we really want another 500 years division between catholics and protestants? No and neither God does. We should all gather as much unshakable faith as possibly we can while we still have time and while we still live in relative peace when we things are easy. Soon the things won’t be so easy and those who won’t have an unshaken faith won’t survive.
C
Cabo30
Guest
That is not true at all. The reason Protestants removed certain books, was because they felt that those books did not line up with the rest of the Cannon. This idea that Catholics are somehow more knowledgable and more holy stems from a deep rooted sin called pride. Jesus wanted His church to be unified not divided over prideful doctrine.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Cabo,
So defectors of the Catholic Church, renegades priests and the like have more wisdom in producing an incomplete canon than the Church that produced the canon. Where and who has pride?
J
JustaServant
Guest
P
pablope
Guest
Cabo…what or where did the authority of the Protestants come from to remove these 7 books?
And who gave them that authority?
Pope Damasus, in the Council of Rome AD382, said these 7 books should be included…so let me ask you…who has more authority…those Protestants who decided for themselves to remove them or Pope Damasus who said they are part of the Canon?
Is the Holy Spirit who guided Pope Damasus is a different Holy Spirit guiding the Protestants to remove them?
Then how come you are protestant? Or …what are you doing to reunify the Church?
1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”
Removed books? If in fact you believe your communion “removed books” from the canon, your communion ought to reconsider.
Because they felt??? Didn’t line up???
Perhaps you need to elaborate.
Pride is an equal opportunity sin. Venture into some of the non-Catholic website forums and it is there, too, in spades.
Jon
G
guanophore
Guest
You are right, of course. But let us consider the foundations of your statements here.
What can be said of these persons who considered themselves and their own “felt” sense that these books were “not lined up” to be of more more value that the successors of the Apostles to whom God gave authority to determine what books were inspired?
A “canon” is a rule, or a line of measurement. The successors of the Apostles established this “rule” (of which books God wanted included in the Bible) based upon the faith that was handed down to them from the Apostles.
The Protestants you reference above deliberatly separated themselves from this Apostolic succession, then took it upon themselves to change what God had already revealed to the Church.
While I agree with you that there is a sin of pride, and that many Catholics suffer from it, the divine revelation of the canon has nothing to do with human pride. The canon was discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit acting infallibly through the successors of the Apostles.
Yes, Jesus does want His Church to be one, and not divided over prideful doctrine. Toward that end, I hope you will read the original works of Martin Luther, especially with regard to the Pope, and in the context of the doctrines he formed 1500 years after the faith was delivered once for all to the saints.
Truth revealed to us by God must be defended by the faithful. This is not a matter of pride, but of obligation on the part of Catholics.
Jude 3-4
Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you **to contend for the faith **that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
It is not pride, but duty. The doctrines of the faith were taught to the Apostles by Jesus, and delivered whole and entire to the Catholic Church before a word of the New Testament had ever been written. We are not at liberty to change these doctrines, because they are not of human origin.
J
jayjay777
Guest
- Status