Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[empantarhei]

I think an overlooked element in the root of this term that comes from the Latin protestare is that it referred to “standing up for” a value. In modern times it is more understood as “standing against”(Catholicism), but originally it was a form of civil disobedience that emanated from conscience.

 

[JonNC]

I think an overlooked element in the root of this term that comes from the Latin protestare is that it referred to “standing up for” a value. In modern times it is more understood as “standing against”(Catholicism), but originally it was a form of civil disobedience that emanated from conscience.

Exactly, something our two communions are doing together against the HHS mandate.

Jon

 

[Novart]

• Photo of Billy Graham and President John F Kennedy

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

As long as we are capable of naming a religion and feel affiliated with a creed, there will be no unity. That will only happen when

"Out beyond the ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing there is a field.
I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other
doesn’t make any sense."

From Essential Rumi
by Coleman Barks

 

[PRmerger]

As long as we are capable of naming a religion and feel affiliated with a creed, there will be no unity.

That, frankly, is a recipe for chaos and confusion, not unity.

 

[benjohnson]

That, frankly, is a recipe for chaos and confusion, not unity.

Indeed - if there’s any sanity in the Lutheran church, it is because of our shared creeds and our confessions.

 

[Mike_SoCal]

Protestants and Catholics together; do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants? We can discuss whatever you want on this issue since we agree on the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Jesus is Lord; therefore, at the end of the day, we are simply just siblings in Christ. Honest discussion is the first step for Christian unity. What would you like to discuss on this issue?

The most important issue and most overlooked is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16 NIV
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Most churches today do not understand this simple message and how to teach it to others. Most Christ followers are not baptized or cannot remember their baptism.

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is the Grace of God who saves those who Profess Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Religion can be very foolish. Faith in Jesus saves all who humble themselves, repent, and accept his salvation. This is the True Faith, the narrow way, the gate, etc.

Most Christian Denominations teach salvation by works or by their particular tradition.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is the Gospel, those who do not teach it lead their congregations to ruin and despair.
The Gospel is the only hope in the World and to many it has become an archaic notion.

Revival only comes when the truth is preached and Men abandon foolish notions.

 

[PRmerger]

The most important issue and most overlooked is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16 NIV
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I see nowhere where it says that this is the most important issue in Christendom, Mike.

 

[PRmerger]

Most Christ followers are not baptized or cannot remember their baptism.

Could you please proffer some statistics to show that “most Christ followers are not baptized”?

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is the Grace of God who saves those who Profess Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Amen!

This is very Catholic.

Religion can be very foolish.

Yes, some religions can indeed be very foolish.

Faith in Jesus saves all who humble themselves, repent, and accept his salvation. This is the True Faith, the narrow way, the gate, etc.

Yes!

Again, this is very Catholic.

Most Christian Denominations teach salvation by works or by their particular tradition.

This is how Catholics believe that we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

 

[guanophore]

Indeed - if there’s any sanity in the Lutheran church, it is because of our shared creeds and our confessions.

Yes.

Adherance to the Truth is what creates unity. To the extent that we all embrace the Apostolic faith present in the Creeds and confessions, we have unity.

 

[Novart]

That, frankly, is a recipe for chaos and confusion, not unity.

Yes, from your perspective you give yourself no choice but to see it that way, right?

 

[guanophore]

The most important issue and most overlooked is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16 NIV
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Most churches today do not understand this simple message and how to teach it to others. Most Christ followers are not baptized or cannot remember their baptism.

This is an interesting statement, Mike. I would add to not “remembering” their baptism, that many have not been catechized properly on the meaning of baptism, and how it is to be lived out.

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is the Grace of God who saves those who Profess Jesus is Lord and Savior.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

I think that Catholics and Baptists have different ideas of what “the Gospel” means, so that when we preach it, it looks very different. We also might have some differences (though not as many) on what it means to make Jesus “Lord”.

Religion can be very foolish. Faith in Jesus saves all who humble themselves, repent, and accept his salvation. This is the True Faith, the narrow way, the gate, etc.

I would say, rather, that people’s ideas and actions with regard to “religion” can be very foolish. Obviously, if Jesus was opposed to “religion” He would not have promoted it among the disciples.

James 1:26-27

26 If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

The term “religion” here is *threskeia * in Greek and is used to describe ceremonial observance or worshipping. What the Apostle is teaching us here is that our life in Christ is a way of life where we observe purity and service.

Most Christian Denominations teach salvation by works or by their particular tradition.

Really? Which one’s are those?

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Catholics will agree that this is certainly Gospel, except that Catholics do not stop reading at v. 9, but go on to v 10.

Eph 2:9-10
10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace, through faith, for the purpose of walking in the deeds He has prepared for us. We believe the grace that saves us also produces in us these good works, so that the good works are not separated from that saving grace. SAving faith, to us, is faith that works.

 This is the Gospel, those who do not teach it lead their congregations to ruin and despair.

The Gospel is the only hope in the World and to many it has become an archaic notion.

Revival only comes when the truth is preached and Men abandon foolish notions.

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, from your perspective you give yourself no choice but to see it that way, right?

I don’t see how that’s any different than what you are proposing, Novart.

Without a creed and a religion, we have tens of thousands of differing denominations, each claiming that what they proclaim is the message of Christ.

I think that the existence of these thousand and thousands of Christian denominations speaks to the speciousness of your paradigm.

Thanks to what you are espousing we now have chaos and confusion just on baptism alone!

Is it a sacrament? Or an ordinance? Or does it just get you wet?
Does one need to be immersed? Or sprinkled? Or must it be done in a river?
Can infants be baptized? Or only adults?
Must it be done in the Trinitarian formula? Or in Jesus’ name only?

All of these different understandings, from reading the very same Scriptures (ok, give or take 7 books ). And that’s on just one concept.

And what about the concept of what is required for salvation? Are you Once Saved Always Saved? Or can you lose your salvation? Are some predestined to hell? What saves you? Just calling on the name of Jesus? Or do even the demons believe?

etc etc etc!

Clearly, God intended for there to be One Truth, and He provided a guardian and authentic interpreter of His divinely revealed truth.

 

[Christian_Unity]

It’s good to see that this thread is still going on! :hey_bud:

 

[SteveVH]

Most churches today do not understand this simple message and how to teach it to others.

That’s a pretty sweeping statement. Do you have anything with which to back it up?

Most Christ followers are not baptized

Really? Again, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

or cannot remember their baptism.

Do you believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation?

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)

Do you really want to get into proof texting?

It is the Grace of God who saves those who Profess Jesus is Lord and Savior.

And…?

Religion can be very foolish.

No, people can be very foolish, especially when creating their own religion and rejecting the one, true Church founded by Christ.

Faith in Jesus saves all who humble themselves, repent, and accept his salvation.

I was under the impression that all I had to do was to declare with my mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead. Isn’t that what you said? Hmmm… is there anything else of which I need to be aware? Do I have to follow the commandments as well?

Most Christian Denominations teach salvation by works or by their particular tradition.

Since the Catholic Church is not a denomination I guess that excludes us from your comments, however if most denominations teach this then you should have no problem in naming a few at least.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes, and…?

This is the Gospel, those who do not teach it lead their congregations to ruin and despair.

So let me see if I understand. You have discovered what is and what is not the Gospel. Would you consider your statement to be infallible or is it possible that you could be mistaken?

Revival only comes when the truth is preached and Men abandon foolish notions.

Do you mean when people abandon foolish notions and instead accept your notions?

Peace, brother.

 

[guanophore]

I see nowhere where it says that this is the most important issue in Christendom, Mike.

1 Cor 15:3-6

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, from your perspective you give yourself no choice but to see it that way, right?

Actually I think it is quite clear from the evidence of history since the Reformation that this is, in fact, the result. Fragmentation, separation, division. Disparate groups each believing they have the mind of Christ, teaching opposing doctrines.

 

[PRmerger]

1 Cor 15:3-6

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Friend, where does that verse speak of baptism being the most important issue?

Incidentally, is it not called “the Great Commission”, not “the GREATEST Commission”?

 

[guanophore]

Friend, where does that verse speak of baptism being the most important issue?

Incidentally, is it not called “the Great Commission”, not “the GREATEST Commission”?

Oh that was a response to your post # 541, not the one on baptism. When I sojourned among my Baptist brethren, they claimed that this verse confirmed their believe that this message is the most important task for Christians to engage.

 

[Novart]

I don’t see how that’s any different than what you are proposing, Novart.

I have to wonder, from your answer, what in hell you think I’m proposing, because you can’t have a clue to what that quote means and say what you did. That what I’m pointing to. You don’t, within your paradigm you chose, have the capacity to include in your considerations what that statement actually points to.

Without a creed and a religion, we have tens of thousands of differing denominations, each claiming that what they proclaim is the message of Christ.

I think that the existence of these thousand and thousands of Christian denominations speaks to the speciousness of your paradigm.

Thanks to what you are espousing we now have chaos and confusion just on baptism alone!

Not even remotely close.

Is it a sacrament? Or an ordinance? Or does it just get you wet?
Does one need to be immersed? Or sprinkled? Or must it be done in a river?
Can infants be baptized? Or only adults?
Must it be done in the Trinitarian formula? Or in Jesus’ name only?

All of these different understandings, from reading the very same Scriptures (ok, give or take 7 books ). And that’s on just one concept.

And it is a diversion.

And what about the concept of what is required for salvation? Are you Once Saved Always Saved? Or can you lose your salvation? Are some predestined to hell? What saves you? Just calling on the name of Jesus? Or do even the demons believe?

etc etc etc!

Clearly, God intended for there to be One Truth, and He provided a guardian and authentic interpreter of His divinely revealed truth.

Yep. Concepts. That is not the point of that statement. Maybe later. Thanks for trying.

 

[Novart]

Actually I think it is quite clear from the evidence of history since the Reformation that this is, in fact, the result. Fragmentation, separation, division. Disparate groups each believing they have the mind of Christ, teaching opposing doctrines.

Yes, that is precisely a huge problem and a tragedy. Well said. But nothing to do with the quote I posted.