Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

[PRmerger]

IIt almost sounds that you believe that God only hears prayers from exclusively Catholic believers

In your rejection of Muslims, it almost sounds that you believe that God only hears prayers from exclusively Christian believers.

 

[CopticChristian]

You still make no sense and are making a ridiculous point. Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox are Christians… so our unity is in Christ alone as one body of Christ. Your argument or point about Muslims does not even stand up to the Catechism of the Catholic Church on how the Magestrium separates Christians from other non-Christian religions.

Unity,

You correctly point out that all Catholics, all Protestants and all Orthodox are Christians and united in Christ by our Baptism. So from this side of the fence the unity is via our baptism and you are united by being baptized in the trinitarian formula, infused with Faith/Hope/Charity…and God hears your prayers…but God gives you what you need, not necessarily what you want…and you are here…

From your side of the fence how do you state All Catholic, All Protestants and All Orthodox are united in Christ as one body…explain this to me in a way that makes sense…what makes All Catholics and All Orthodox Christians as you see it?

 

[guanophore]

After several months exploring the idea of Christian Unity between Catholics and Protestants, I have almost concluded that we have irreconcilable differences.  I will choose the sufficiency of Christ as our only means and basis for our union with Christ throughout our Christian journey.

It is good that you have retained at least this much of the Catholic faith.

I do believe the Catholic view of justification is based on personal merit and develops a works righteousness gospel which is not compatible with biblical cross theology.

In this you have chosen to cling to your own prejudices and falsehoods instead of accepting what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. You are quite right, if a person chooses to cling to lies, there will be irreconcilable differences. I understand that many Protestants must cling to this falsehood, though, because giving it up would mean many would be bound my conscience to become Catholic, and they can’t bring themselves to submit to the authority appointed by Christ.

Oh well, at least I tried. - Peace :knight1:

I have read your posts since the first day you arrived here at CAF, and it seems clear to me that what you “tried” was to get Catholics to abandon the faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles in order to embrace an outward “unity” that does not exist. We are not at liberty to jettison the One Faith, especially in favor of doctrines created by the Reformers 1500 years after the once for all deposit of faith. The fact that you wish us to do so creates an irreconcilable difference.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is good that you have retained at least this much of the Catholic faith.

In this you have chosen to cling to your own prejudices and falsehoods instead of accepting what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. You are quite right, if a person chooses to cling to lies, there will be irreconcilable differences. I understand that many Protestants must cling to this falsehood, though, because giving it up would mean many would be bound my conscience to become Catholic, and they can’t bring themselves to submit to the authority appointed by Christ.

I have read your posts since the first day you arrived here at CAF, and it seems clear to me that what you “tried” was to get Catholics to abandon the faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles in order to embrace an outward “unity” that does not exist. We are not at liberty to jettison the One Faith, especially in favor of doctrines created by the Reformers 1500 years after the once for all deposit of faith. The fact that you wish us to do so creates an irreconcilable difference.

My dear Oblate,

I thought I was the only one that viewed CU postings this way.

By the way can anyone take the online Catechesis you mentioned about Covenants?

 

[guanophore]

Well don’t Eastern Orthodox Christians have differing views on Purgatory, and the succession of the Papal Position

The differing views on Purgatory are not what separate us. Eastern Catholics have them too and yet, are in communion with the successor of Peter.

The succession of the papal position is not the problem either. The Eastern Church also has a line of bishops succeeding from Peter from the time he was in Antioch.

They believe in the succession in the same way Catholics do. What is at issue are the filoque, the development of doctrine (specifically the Marian dogmas), Papal infallibility, and Papal jurisdiction.

 

[guanophore]

***The answer is yes:***

The Orthodox Patriarchs will not give up any of their authority -nor will the Lutheran leaders-the Episcopal Church is in schism and becoming increasingly irrelevant- surely you do not think the Assemblies of God denomination wants to give up their doctirines and mega churches-need I talk about the Southern Baptists?

Orthodox Patriarchs should not “give up any of their authority”. It was given to them by Christ, through the Apostles, just as the CC affirms. They have valid Holy Orders and valid sacraments, and the duties and authority of the Bishops are the same in East and West.

I don’t think that there are any Lutheran leaders that are claiming to have authority over any other Christians. What is there for them to “give up”?

I agree, the Episcopal communion is disintegrating into relativism. How sad.

The fact that Evangelicals do not want to give up their doctrines does not mean they necessarily “want” to be divided. They cling to what they have been given to believe is true, just like Catholics do. Would you say that Catholics do not want unity because we do not want to give up our doctrines?

Do you for one moment think the this Pope will give up one iota of his Authority-?

He is not at liberty to do so. He is obligated to exercise that which was commited to him by Christ. That being said, he is the shepherd of the whole flock, and there is only one flock, so he is still their shepherd, whether they acknowledge him as such, or not. He still prays for them, teaches, and sacrifices for the whole Church, including our separated brethren. They are simply rebellious subjects of the Roman Pontiff, but subjects nonetheless.

It is about Power and control -peronalities -plus all of the denominations feel they are right or they would not have formed in the first place-

So, what are you doing to bring about unity?

 

[guanophore]

 What's the solution for unity... are we all equal in Christ now... therefore, we can have unity?

We are equal to the extent that we all relate to the Head by being baptized into Him.

Rom 6:2-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

We are made partakers of His grace, and members one of another. Baptism creates our mystical union with Him, and therefore, with each other.

Unity is achieved by adherance to the Truth.

John 17:17-22
17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

To the extent that some depart from the Truth, unity is wounded.

I believe the cross is the great equalizer which should enable all of us to unite as one.

Yes, this is what the Apostle means when he writes that we have been baptized into His death.

And FYI:

The Magestrium…

The teaching authority of the CC is called the Magisterium, after the Latin for the office of of a supervisor, office of tutor or guardian, instruction, or master.

Jesus entrusted the message of the Gospel to His apostles, and they to their successors, the Bishops. These bishops, in unity with the successor of Peter, today form the teaching authority appointed for the One Flock by Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

My dear Oblate,

I thought I was the only one that viewed CU postings this way.

By the way can anyone take the online Catechesis you mentioned about Covenants?

Yes they are open to the public, and if your diocese is a partner, you can get them half price.

vlc.udayton.edu/

 

[guanophore]

  I have no desire to be in your inner circle.

Isn’t this just the least bit disingenuous, CU? You keep saying you are promoting “unity”, but it seems like you don’t want to get TOO close!

I push for Christian unity for the sake of Christ alone.

What makes you think you can be part of Jesus’ “inner circle” if you are not willing to be “in it” with your siblings in Christ?

  On Facebook, there are typically two kinds of Christian group sites.  You have the Evangelical, Bible Alone, Protestant groups posting left and right that Catholics are apostate and believe in a false religion ..

And this is relevant because…?

 On the other side of the Facebook town, you have Catholic groups who are saying Protestants are heretics and are lost and non-catholics need to come back to the Catholic Church. That makes no sense to Protestants who never belonged to the Catholic Church in the first place.

It also makes no sense to properly catechized Catholics, who know that those who have never been taught the fullness of the faith cannot be charged with the sin of heresy.

Properly catechized Catholics accept validly baptized non-Catholic Christians as siblings in Christ.

 I can participate on both kinds of groups which allows me to watch the proselytizing going in each direction. It's really sad when you think about it.

Yes, very sad. I do not think that FB is the most productive environment for theological debate. Look, this site is designed for such debate, and after all this time, you are still clinging to lies about the Catholic faith. How much more on FB!

Now when you study John 17, we have a command for Christian unity for the sake of the unbeliever to believe. It’s a terrible testimony to the world in how Protestants and Catholics tend to see each other.

Yes. Jesus was clear that He wanted us to be One so that the world would know Him. The divisions harm all our evangelical efforts.

 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - 1 Cor 1

So, what is it we are to “agree” upon? What kind of “divisions” are not to exist? How can we follow this Apostolic command while we are still all clinging to our “theological distinctives”?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I thought I was the only one that viewed CU postings this way.

I will join the 2 of you.

 

[guanophore]

I not asking you to allow me in your imaginary circle. You don’t decide who is united to Christ and who is not based on what Church you belong to. For those who are united to Christ, regardless of what Church that you attend… makeup the universal body of Christ There is no irony sister, because you are missing the point about old humanity and new humanity, those united to Adam and those united to the 2nd Adam,. God’s adopted children who call upon God as their Heavenly Father are Christians from the various branches of. Christendom. It almost sounds that you believe that God only hears prayers from exclusively Catholic believers.

Not only do we accept all those non-Catholic Christians who are united to Christ, we also accept all those non-Christian believers who are mystically united to Christ but may appear in this world to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Shito or Pagan. We accept that they worship what is unknown to them.

Jesus said that “salvation is from the Jews”, and Scripture is clear that people are saved who never knew Christ. Your world view is very exclusive, limited, and unscriptural.

 

[PRmerger]

Not only do we accept all those non-Catholic Christians who are united to Christ, we also accept all those non-Christian believers who are mystically united to Christ but may appear in this world to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Shito or Pagan. We accept that they worship what is unknown to them.

Jesus said that “salvation is from the Jews”, and Scripture is clear that people are saved who never knew Christ. Your world view is very exclusive, limited, and unscriptural.

Not to mention it doesn’t seem to be promoting unity.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Not only do we accept all those non-Catholic Christians who are united to Christ, we also accept all those non-Christian believers who are mystically united to Christ but may appear in this world to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Shito or Pagan. We accept that they worship what is unknown to them.

Jesus said that “salvation is from the Jews”, and Scripture is clear that people are saved who never knew Christ. Your world view is very exclusive, limited, and unscriptural.

That’s a tough one because Muslims and Hindus worship a different Jesus and embrace a different gospel. Paul is not too king about Christians who receive others in fellowship who embrace another Jesus or another gospel. It seems if you receive other non-Christian religions as being united to Christ, you would have no need to bring the gospel to them. We live in a strange time in redemptive history. I think Jesus made it clear that the unbelieving Jews are children of Satan, and Paul wrote that the remnant Jews were saved through faith in Christ and the rest were hardened for the sake of the remnant Gentiles.

 

[guanophore]

 That's a tough one because Muslims and Hindus worship a different Jesus and embrace a different gospel.

Actually, they don’t worship anyone they perceive as Jesus at all. They don’t have a “gospel” either.

 Paul is not too king about Christians who receive others in fellowship who embrace another Jesus or another gospel.

No, but we are not talking about Christians, but those who have never been exposed to Christianity, or misconceive of it.

 It seems if you receive other non-Christian religions as being united to Christ, you would have no need to bring the gospel to them.

I agree, however, unlike yourself, we do not presume to know whether they are united to Christ, or not. We accept the apostolic teaching that there are some who are mystically united, but do not appear to be so in this life.

We live in a strange time in redemptive history. I think Jesus made it clear that the unbelieving Jews are children of Satan, and Paul wrote that the remnant Jews were saved through faith in Christ and the rest were hardened for the sake of the remnant Gentiles.

I agree, but there are many believing Jews, and believing Muslims, etc.

You presume to judge their hearts before God. The Apostles taught that we are not to do this.

Doing so makes you appear narrow minded and bigoted.

 

[GWright]

It is unlikely that there will be any protestant denominations remaining in 500 years.

Most of them are very close to extinction already.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Actually, they don’t worship anyone they perceive as Jesus at all. They don’t have a “gospel” either.

No, but we are not talking about Christians, but those who have never been exposed to Christianity, or misconceive of it.

I agree, however, unlike yourself, we do not presume to know whether they are united to Christ, or not. We accept the apostolic teaching that there are some who are mystically united, but do not appear to be so in this life.

I agree, but there are many believing Jews, and believing Muslims, etc.

You presume to judge their hearts before God. The Apostles taught that we are not to do this.

Doing so makes you appear narrow minded and bigoted.

If you read the Quarn, the Muslims do believe in a Jesus who was a prophet that was not crucified; therefore, their Jesus was not risen from the dead. They also reject the deity of Jesus too. In Hinduism, they believe Jesus is just another deity with their thousands of deities. I don’t believe Allah is the same Triune God that we worship as Protestants and Catholics. We need to hold fast to the historic creeds such as the Nicene Creed and Apostles creed, and bring the gospel to those who do not know God through the historic Jesus Christ revealed in Sacred Scripture. The exclusive view which makes me appear narrow minded and bigoted is the Apostolic Faith in which we proclaim. Can you provide early church father’s writing who said that Judaism and Islam will lead you to salvation in Christ? I’m all for ecumenism between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christian believers. I don’t think we can give hope to those who place their hope outside of the historic biblical Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

If you read the Quarn, the Muslims do believe in a Jesus who was a prophet that was not crucified; therefore, their Jesus was not risen from the dead. They also reject the deity of Jesus too. In Hinduism, they believe Jesus is just another deity with their thousands of deities.

Yes, they are in error concerning their belief about Jesus.

I don’t believe Allah is the same Triune God that we worship as Protestants and Catholics.

And yet, if they worship the God of Abraham they are worshiping the same Triune God without realizing it, are they not?

We need to hold fast to the historic creeds such as the Nicene Creed and Apostles creed, and bring the gospel to those who do not know God through the historic Jesus Christ revealed in Sacred Scripture.

Yes, having been informed about Christ, we need to spread the Gospel to all the world. Those who have not been informed cannot be faulted for not believing.

The exclusive view which makes me appear narrow minded and bigoted is the Apostolic Faith in which we proclaim.

But you do not proclaim the Apostolic faith, which holds the Eucharist as the source and summit of that faith. If that is the criteria you are using then you are in the same position as the Muslim.

Can you provide early church father’s writing who said that Judaism and Islam will lead you to salvation in Christ?

How about the Sacred Sriptures:

“You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.” (John 4:22)

As for Islam, it would have been difficult for any of the early Church Fathers to comment since they predated Islam which did not begin until around 600 A.D.

I’m all for ecumenism between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christian believers. I don’t think we can give hope to those who place their hope outside of the historic biblical Jesus.

And I’m sure that all of these for which you have no hope are very happy that you will not be the one judging them, but rather a Father who desires that all be saved and who’s mercy is stronger than his justice.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, they are in error concerning their belief about Jesus.

We rejoice that they have recognized this truth: there is only One God.
We despair that they have rejected this truth: Jesus is God.

Similarly, we rejoice that non-Catholic Christians have recognized this truth: Jesus is God.
We despair that they (most) have rejected this truth: Jesus is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

 

[PRmerger]

If you read the Quarn, the Muslims do believe in a Jesus who was a prophet that was not crucified; therefore, their Jesus was not risen from the dead. They also reject the deity of Jesus too. In Hinduism, they believe Jesus is just another deity with their thousands of deities. I don’t believe Allah is the same Triune God that we worship as Protestants and Catholics. We need to hold fast to the historic creeds such as the Nicene Creed and Apostles creed, and bring the gospel to those who do not know God through the historic Jesus Christ revealed in Sacred Scripture. The exclusive view which makes me appear narrow minded and bigoted is the Apostolic Faith in which we proclaim. Can you provide early church father’s writing who said that Judaism and Islam will lead you to salvation in Christ? I’m all for ecumenism between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christian believers. I don’t think we can give hope to those who place their hope outside of the historic biblical Jesus.

Where Islam gets it wrong, we do not embrace that.

Similarly, where your theology gets it wrong, we do not embrace that.

But for some reason you are enjoining upon us to embrace your wrong theology in the name of unity, but you also refuse to embrace Muslims and their wrong theology in the name of unity.

 

[SteveVH]

We rejoice that they have recognized this truth: there is only One God.
We despair that they have rejected this truth: Jesus is God.

Similarly, we rejoice that non-Catholic Christians have recognized this truth: Jesus is God.
We despair that they (most) have rejected this truth: Jesus is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist.

That’s it in a nutshell.