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Matt241
Guest
Thank you to the administrator who just banned GISMYS.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
*You guys are welcome…I just cleaned up his ranting, non-scriptural posts.
Carry on brothers!*
Carry on brothers!*
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batman1973
Guest
I myself would like to see the answer.
po18guy
Well-known member
The catechism, in sections 210 and 211 describes it as a “state” of being. It is not a place, but a purifying process, a refiner’s fire if you will, on the way to heaven. This is exactly as Saint Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 3.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
There is theological teaching that purgatory IS encounter with Christ. [Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. … Encounter with the Lord is this transformation. (Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231)
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Ad_Orientem
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To ‘see God’ has at least two meanings:
(1) the physical sight of God Incarnate, and
(2) the Beatific Vision or the spiritual knowledge of God in his essence.
For #1, we’d either need bodies (which we won’t have until the general resurrection) or a miraculous intervention to allow physical sight without eyes. I see no reason to suppose we would have this, though certainly God is capable of doing it.
For #2, we’d have to be totally purified, which we won’t be until after purgatory.
As to the quote above, ‘encounter’ is rather vague and does not necessarily imply sight. (Do we not encounter the Lord here and now?)
So my opinion is, in ordinary cases, no. But I’d like to see evidence to the contrary.
(1) the physical sight of God Incarnate, and
(2) the Beatific Vision or the spiritual knowledge of God in his essence.
For #1, we’d either need bodies (which we won’t have until the general resurrection) or a miraculous intervention to allow physical sight without eyes. I see no reason to suppose we would have this, though certainly God is capable of doing it.
For #2, we’d have to be totally purified, which we won’t be until after purgatory.
As to the quote above, ‘encounter’ is rather vague and does not necessarily imply sight. (Do we not encounter the Lord here and now?)
So my opinion is, in ordinary cases, no. But I’d like to see evidence to the contrary.
po18guy
Well-known member
The answer is a definite yes. Nothing impure will enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Yet, we all die with some level of sin on our souls - sin that is not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Purgation is the only way that we will ever see heaven - unless we die in a state of perfection (yeah, right!
). But, all of this will only occur after our judgment and the decision as to whether we will enter heaven or hell.Think of purgatory like this: We are all invited to the banquet in the Father’s house. Yet, because of our sinful nature, and the sin remaining on our souls when we die, we cannot enter the house until we are made pure. Jesus is at the door to judge us as to whether we will be worthy to enter. Those unworthy are sent away - those who have sin unto death. The worthy will enter, but must be purified (must put on the wedding garment Matthew 22:11-14). Many houses have “mud rooms” where one may be cleaned up after working outside in the yard. Most husbands know that they must not enter the house until and unless they are cleaned up. Purgatory is God’s mud room. It is part of His house, but it is not the banquet. One must pass through it to enter into the banquet. And, one who is in the mud room is certain that they will feast at the banquet. Thus, even though they are getting a good scrubbing, they are filled with the joy of anticipation.
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seagal
Guest
The effects of sin stain our soul and they must be made white as snow.
Fr. Serpa (of Ask An Apologist forum) uses the analogy of spilling a glass of orange juice. Your mother may forgive you but the juice is still all over the floor and needs to be cleaned up. That’s what purgatory is for.
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didymus
Guest
I’ve read the Benedict XVI conjectured (not taught) that Purgatory may be “an existential with Christ” powerful, blinding, spiritually cleansing but painful.
I find this interesting because I’ve imagined Purgatory as a sort of forced examination of conscience review of our whole lives. It’s gotta hurt. In Heaven we will be outside time, in Purgatory will we experience duration? Beats me.
I find this interesting because I’ve imagined Purgatory as a sort of forced examination of conscience review of our whole lives. It’s gotta hurt. In Heaven we will be outside time, in Purgatory will we experience duration? Beats me.
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Genesis315
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI wrote positively of the following opinion in his encyclical Spe Salvi (note, he leaves it classified as acceptable theological opinion, but does not make it the definitive doctrine of the Church):
- Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.
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mikekle
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Why would people be judged twice? that doesnt make any sense.
I have heard the theory that when we die, we essentially go into a type of sleep, and then awake for the final judgement, I can not recall the exact details on this theory, its been awhile since I heard the guy talking about it, but he quoted a few bible verses that led him to believe this, Has anyone else heard of this theory, or know the details?
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Ad_Orientem
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@mikekle - Particular Judgment. Soul sleep.
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dee_burk
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Well, mind you i am still in the process of conversion and learning the faith so someone with more apologetic knowledge can please correct me.
We are judged immediately upon death to determine whether we are sent to hell or the cleansing of purgatory. then there is THE final judgement of the living and the dead whereby those who are in hell are banished eternally from God and those cleansed will be able to enter into everlasting life. CCC1038
po18guy
Well-known member
“Soul sleep” is Mormon and Seventh-Day Adventist belief. It results from the error of private interpretation of scripture. As to judgment, there are two types: our particular judgment when we die, and the general judgment of the world at the end of time.
As to “soul sleep”, think about this: When Jesus died, He went in His spirit to the abode of the dead. There, He preached the Gospel to the dead (1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6). Could He/would He do that if they were sleeping? Sleep is a very common analogy used in scripture for death - as the two states appear quite similar. Yet, to the Father, all are alive (Luke 20:38).
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SonShine135
Guest
If I may add my 2 cents- I have always understood that the first judgement is focused on you as a person and your sins, but the judgement at the end of time is going to be far more brutal. At the end of time, when all are resurrected in the body, we are to be judged not just on our sin, but on how our sin impacted all of those around us throughout time. Another way to think about it is that the judgement you are part of when you die is a small, closed court. The judgement at the end of time is like the Grand Jury where the Saints and Martyrs, you family, your friends, and your enemies for that matter will see what ultimate justice you are deserving. All truths are made known. Will you be wheat or chaff?
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Zeno11
Guest
I don’t understand this idea of being judged twice either, once at our death, and then again on the last day. Also the church does seem to contradict herself with regard to this - why do we pray for the dead at every Mass by saying ‘May these, and all who***sleep ***********in Christ…’ or we pray that they ‘***rest’*********in peace…
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5 RSV)
“For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 RSV)
“Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day… For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29,34 RSV)
“No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13 RSV)
Most Biblical sources seem to suggest that we sleep until the day of Judgement. Also, it would be kind of strange for Jesus to have raised people from the dead, if they had already been judged and sent to hell/purgatory/heaven. Didn’t Jesus say about one of those that he resurrected that they were ‘sleeping’? Why would he raise Lazarus, for example, if he had already been judged?
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5 RSV)
“For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 RSV)
“Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day… For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29,34 RSV)
“No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13 RSV)
Most Biblical sources seem to suggest that we sleep until the day of Judgement. Also, it would be kind of strange for Jesus to have raised people from the dead, if they had already been judged and sent to hell/purgatory/heaven. Didn’t Jesus say about one of those that he resurrected that they were ‘sleeping’? Why would he raise Lazarus, for example, if he had already been judged?
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Zeno11
Guest
Further to my last post, I have been thinking about this a lot! There also seems to be a lot of evidence that we do not ‘sleep’ like I suggested in the last post.
For example, Jesus clearly taught in His story about the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9-31). When they died, their spirits went to Hades. The rich man’s spirit went to a compartment called “Torments.” The spirit of Lazarus went to a compartment referred to as “Abraham’s bosom.” On the Cross, Jesus called this compartment “Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The two compartments were separated by a “great chasm” which could not be crossed.
In Jesus’ story both men are pictured as fully conscious. They even carry on a conversation with each other. Their souls are not asleep.
Paul affirmed consciousness after death when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would prefer to be “absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” He repeated this sentiment in his Philippian letter where he wrote “to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Philippians 1:21). He elaborated on the meaning of this statement by adding that his desire was “to depart and be with Christ” (Philippians 1:23).
When Jesus died for the sins of Mankind, Paradise was moved from Hades to Heaven. Paul attests to this in 2 Corinthians 12:4 where he states that he was taken up to the “third heaven,” which he identifies as “Paradise.” The Redeemed could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins had only been covered by their faith, not forgiven. Their forgiveness awaited the shedding of the blood of Jesus (Hebrews 9:22).
Some say this means that when a believer dies today, his soul is taken directly to Heaven where he resides in an intermediate spirit body until the time of the resurrection. Martyred believers during the Tribulation are pictured in their spirit bodies standing before the throne of God clad in white robes and waving palm branches (Revelation 7:1-9). They are fully conscious as they sing, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb” (Revelation 7:10).
Also Jesus promised the good thief that ‘Today you will be with me in Paradise’.
I still can’t work out where Lazarus was before Jesus rose him up from the dead?
I’m a bit obsessed about what happens after death because I have buried so many of my family. Obviously I pray for them all the time but I’m pretty sure they are with God.
For example, Jesus clearly taught in His story about the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:9-31). When they died, their spirits went to Hades. The rich man’s spirit went to a compartment called “Torments.” The spirit of Lazarus went to a compartment referred to as “Abraham’s bosom.” On the Cross, Jesus called this compartment “Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The two compartments were separated by a “great chasm” which could not be crossed.
In Jesus’ story both men are pictured as fully conscious. They even carry on a conversation with each other. Their souls are not asleep.
Paul affirmed consciousness after death when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would prefer to be “absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” He repeated this sentiment in his Philippian letter where he wrote “to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Philippians 1:21). He elaborated on the meaning of this statement by adding that his desire was “to depart and be with Christ” (Philippians 1:23).
When Jesus died for the sins of Mankind, Paradise was moved from Hades to Heaven. Paul attests to this in 2 Corinthians 12:4 where he states that he was taken up to the “third heaven,” which he identifies as “Paradise.” The Redeemed could not go directly to Heaven before the Cross because their sins had only been covered by their faith, not forgiven. Their forgiveness awaited the shedding of the blood of Jesus (Hebrews 9:22).
Some say this means that when a believer dies today, his soul is taken directly to Heaven where he resides in an intermediate spirit body until the time of the resurrection. Martyred believers during the Tribulation are pictured in their spirit bodies standing before the throne of God clad in white robes and waving palm branches (Revelation 7:1-9). They are fully conscious as they sing, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb” (Revelation 7:10).
Also Jesus promised the good thief that ‘Today you will be with me in Paradise’.
I still can’t work out where Lazarus was before Jesus rose him up from the dead?
I’m a bit obsessed about what happens after death because I have buried so many of my family. Obviously I pray for them all the time but I’m pretty sure they are with God.
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