Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[BroomWagon]

Respectfully, the Democrats and Obama get a whole lot of votes by promising to give things like the Obama phone,

Give to the Unions, National Organization of Women, EPA, etc. etc. Special interest groups, entitlements, it puts a lot of the middle class between the rock and a hard place. He has not been a successful president.

 

[je333]

Hi, Je333,

Sodomy is considered both sinful and disordred. Would you not consider this also evil?

Here are a couple of link to help you along:

tanbooks.com/doct/church_sodomy.htm

lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/sodomy-and-theology-of-body-death-of.html

As I see it, there is no need to not address this issue since you appear to defend it - but just not with clarity. Again we are talking behavior - and you may use sodomy as a specific behavior to consider.

God bless

I am unsure what compelled me to click on the links that was presented to me. Tom, Tom, Tom… You wanted me to open the Pandora Box!

My comment will be based on and taken from the link itself. Hopefully, the everything in the link is truthfully presented. I shall define sodomy, and, hopefully, I won’t be censored for the graphic nature of the subject matter.

Taken from Wikipedia…

Sodomy is any non-penile/vaginal copulation -like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.

So this is what it means. I heard the word a million times and didn’t know exactly what it means. From this definition alone, numerous other sexual acts that are deviant can be added.

The document you presented to me is in response to the crisis in the clergy and in the religious orders. Most saints call sodomy “the sin against nature.” Others call it:

“They are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, 2nd century apologist of the Church.

“…but the worst of all passions is lust between men. . . . The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, so much so that one cannot even say that they procure pleasure, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down! Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic. . . . So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor.” St John Chrysostom

Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones: They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.

Saint Thomas Aquinas – "…the sin against nature, by which man debases himself lower than even his animal nature.”

St Catherine of Siena – "they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords… It is disagreeable to the demons, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being committed. It is true that it is the demon who hits the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demon leaves.”

Saint Bernardine of Siena "makes an accurate psychological analysis of the consequences of the homosexual vice… ‘Such passion for undue forms borders on madness… Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than anyone else, because this is the worst sin that there is.’”

Saint Peter Canisius says this about the sin of sodomy: “Those who are not ashamed of violating divine and natural law are slaves of this turpitude that can never be sufficiently execrated.”

Such extreme comments from some of the saints! All of the comments suggest that it is a disorder. How could they miss it? Would their reaction be changed only if they were smart enough to know that it is a DISORDER? Love and Compassion is what is needed to be given to these people not persecution and condemnation. They are human beings worth saving according to Jesus Christ. If one truely cares about saving them, then, pray for them and offer your sufferings to Jesus Christ on the cross to save their souls. That is more powerful than any miracles, evangilaztion, charitable or militant actions you do. They need the grace of God for conversion and it really works!

Modern Psychology
"For a considerable segment of modern psychologists, homosexuality does not result from a person’s concession to an unnatural tendency nor is it a moral vice; on the contrary, it is something according to nature, or at worst simply an illness, which should be accepted as normal.
• “In pastoral care, sufficient use should be made, not only of theological principles, but also of the findings of secular sciences, especially psychology and sociology.” (GS 62b)

**Cardinal Ratzinger **says that the act(behavior) is intrinsically evil and that the inclination is objectively disordered without being a sin properly speaking. This is in accordance with Catholic doctrine.

So according to Pope Benedict the XVI, it is intrisically evil! So, that sexual act is. For me however, I only reserve that word for the ones who put thorns on the flesh and poison the minds of the people to commit sin. People are only sinners worth saving but demons are evil who belong to hell. The word disorder vs evil means night and day or heaven and hell specially when it comes to judgement. Disorder implie illness, thru no fault of their own, and requires sensitive care.

 

[iloveangels]

Respectfully, the Democrats and Obama get a whole lot of votes by promising to give things like the Obama phone,

Give to the Unions, National Organization of Women, EPA, etc. etc. Special interest groups, entitlements, it puts a lot of the middle class between the rock and a hard place. He has not been a successful president.

I agree.

 

[je333]

lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/sodomy-and-theology-of-body-death-of.html

On July 24, 1992, L’Osservatore Romano published the third document of the same Congregation on the subject, entitled “Some Considerations concerning the Catholic Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons.” (June, 1992). It is addressed to the Bishops of the United States but is undated. Its foreword says that the published version is a second draft written after consultation with the Bishops. More atypically, it says that the considerations in the document are not intended as an official instruction, but only as a resource for “the conscientious Catholic legislator, voter, or Church authority who is confronted with such issues.”

Its objective, therefore, is to orient the Bishops on what position to take regarding civil laws protecting homosexuals. That is to say, the boldest request made in the prior document becomes the premise of this one. The document, published on the authority of Cardinal Ratzinger, says: “Homosexual persons, as human persons, have the same rights as all persons, including that of not being treated in a manner which offends their personal dignity. Among other rights, all persons have the right to work, to housing, etc. Nevertheless, these rights are not absolute. They can be legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct” (n. 12).

“There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the consignment of children to adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or coaches, and in military recruitment” (n. 11)

I don’t agree with this. The Church already said that sexual orientation or inclination or tendency is not sinful but using it to discrimate for adoption, employment of teachers or coaches and in the military seems unjust to me.

Cardinal Seper admits that there seems to be some foundation to the theories of modern psychology which claim that in some cases homosexuality is part of the person’s psychic makeup and hence judged to be incurable.
• In the name of pastoral care, he recommends that the Church’s attitude toward homosexuals be one of understanding and encouragement toward overcoming their problems.
• He says that those who “**suffer from this anomaly” are not necessarily “personally responsible for it.” **

THRU NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN! And this quote from Cardinal Seper is exactly my response to you, Tom.

Cardinal Ratzinger **calls for condemnation of violent malice in speech or in action against homosexuals; also, based on human dignity, he calls for respect for homosexuals in word, action and law. **

Randy Engel’s articles
“Randy Engel asks: Is Benedict XVI a homosexual?”
“The Homosexual Colonization of The Catholic Church”
“The Pellegrini Scandal”
“NO” on Ministry to Persons With a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care"
“Randy Engel: Catholic Prelature Still Full of Homos”

And, her witch hunting and relentless persecution of religious people who have homosexual inclination in convents and monasteries all over the USA.

This kind of behavior is strinsically evil and is condemn by the Church. To be hunting people with homosexual inclination is not allowed in heaven, you know. I think, she knows where she is going.

None of the documents quoted did the Holy See state that homosexuality is a vice contrary to nature, let alone call to mind that it is one of the sins that cry out to Heaven and clamor to God for vengeance.

God Bless,
je333

 

[Elizium23]

I don’t think Obama is anti-Catholic either. I just think he is largely indifferent to the Catholic Church and sincerely subscribes to some of the beliefs on the political left. I’d like to believe his intentions are well meant even if misdirected.

Obama has telegraphed his intentions toward the Catholic Church loud and clear to anyone who will listen.

He has consistently appointed Catholic pro-abortion officials to important posts in his administration. Just look at his Trinity of Pelosi, Biden and Sebelius; there are many, many others to name.

Obama needs unfaithful Catholics to support him or he cannot win.

Obama is intent on causing schism in the Church. He is certainly not the initial cause of this but he is using the active dissent as a wedge to drive between pro-Obama pro-aborts and faithful people who side with our bishops and faithful clergy.

Obama knows that he can get away with this. He knows exactly how much dissatisfaction there is festering in the Church now because conservative Popes and bishops are effecting a “reform of the reform” in liturgical and doctrinal matters. A correction of the “Spirit of Vatican II” is causing unease among those dissenters who thought that the Church would change for good after the 60s. It used to be absolutely true that you could be a faithful liberal Catholic, affiliated with the Democratic party, and support the party with your values, just as all the Kennedys did. The party still needs Catholics if it is to stay alive and relevant. Yet the party has fundamentally betrayed us and knowingly twisted our values away from things that the Church can support and approve. Obama is a precise instrument of his party’s agenda which seeks to divide and conquer Catholics who are willing to betray the values of their Church.

This is not just Obama’s doing. It is the concerted effort of all the members of the Democratic party. In choosing evil they have gone off the deep end. My parents are Democrat and I grew up voting and believing Democrat values. As a Catholic revert, I began voting Republican about ten years ago. I registered Republican finally last year. There was no way I could remain a Catholic and conscientiously support the Democratic party in any way, shape or form. It’s a total lost cause. My views as a Catholic do not always line up with the Republican party, but it is truly today the lesser of two evils.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Je333,

I do believe you are on your own. Obviously these canonized saints who have condemned homosexual BEHAVIOR did not have the requisite amount of charity to speak on thiis subject - and Pope Benedict XVIs comments on this BEHAVIOR being disordered, sinful - and, yes - evil are also out of touch. No one is talking aboout inclindations - only you. I realize that talking about BEHAVIOR is not what you want to do and that is understandable. But really, if you want to address my posts then address BEHAVIOR and leave those other topics alone because they really do not apply.

The whole point about disordered, sinful and evil BEHAVIOR is that those who freely engage in this are heading for Hell. Now, that statement may strike some as uncharitable - but, Christ Himself was quite clear about what happens to those who continue in sin - they wind up in eternal fire where the worm does not die! Maybe He was being uncharitable, too?
x
Until you address homosexual behavior as disordered and sinful and evil - there really is not much I can say to you. We have to have a common understanding of Catholic teaching concerning this behavior. Once that is in place we can talk about inclinations. But, please note, while they have found a gene that predisposes some to become alcoholics webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene no such gene has been actually found for homosexual behavior (some have claimed suh - but, this has been refuted). And, when it comes to alcoholics - none to my knowledge have gotten a parade permit, marched up and down the street proclaiming that they can drink as much as they want and if you try to stop them then you are discriminating against them! Maybe the alcoholics who have fought every day to be sober had it all wrong - they shoould have continued to be drunk but just gathered into loud and organized groups fighting for their rights to continue in alcoholic behavior.

God bless

I don’t agree with this. The Church already said that sexual orientation or inclination or tendency is not sinful but using it to discrimate for adoption, employment of teachers or coaches and in the military seems unjust to me.

THRU NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN! And this quote from Cardinal Seper is exactly my response to you, Tom.

Randy Engel’s articles
“Randy Engel asks: Is Benedict XVI a homosexual?”
“The Homosexual Colonization of The Catholic Church”
“The Pellegrini Scandal”
“NO” on Ministry to Persons With a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care"
“Randy Engel: Catholic Prelature Still Full of Homos”

And, her witch hunting and relentless persecution of religious people who have homosexual inclination in convents and monasteries all over the USA.

This kind of behavior is strinsically evil and is condemn by the Church. To be hunting people with homosexual inclination is not allowed in heaven, you know. I think, she knows where she is going.

God Bless,
je333

 

[SuperLuigi]

The LGBT community, if willing, could provide a safety net for unwanted babies or children without a family.

No it couldn’t, and I don’t know why people think they are the dump-off option for heterosexual irresponsibility.

Most children in GLBTQ relationships come from previously heterosexual encounters and gay relationships are not as stable as straight ones.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Je333,

Here is Paragraph 8

"8. Thus, the Church’s teaching today is in organic continuity with the Scriptural perspective and with her own constant Tradition. Though today’s world is in many ways quite new, the Christian community senses the profound and lasting bonds which join us to those generations who have gone before us, “marked with the sign of faith”.

Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.

The Church’s ministers must ensure that homosexual persons in their care will not be misled by this point of view, so profoundly opposed to the teaching of the Church. But the risk is great and there are many who seek to create confusion regarding the Church’s position, and then to use that confusion to their own advantage."

And, for those interested, here is the Vatican document in its entirety: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

God bless

I don’t agree with this. The Church already said that sexual orientation or inclination or tendency is not sinful but using it to discrimate for adoption, employment of teachers or coaches and in the military seems unjust to me.

THRU NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN! And this quote from Cardinal Seper is exactly my response to you, Tom.

Randy Engel’s articles
“Randy Engel asks: Is Benedict XVI a homosexual?”
“The Homosexual Colonization of The Catholic Church”
“The Pellegrini Scandal”
“NO” on Ministry to Persons With a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care"
“Randy Engel: Catholic Prelature Still Full of Homos”

And, her witch hunting and relentless persecution of religious people who have homosexual inclination in convents and monasteries all over the USA.

This kind of behavior is strinsically evil and is condemn by the Church. To be hunting people with homosexual inclination is not allowed in heaven, you know. I think, she knows where she is going.

God Bless,
je333

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Don’t these get closed down after 1,000 posts?

Btw, the answer is: NO

We do not vote for the lesser of two evils.

 

[rlg94086]

Don’t these get closed down after 1,000 posts?

Btw, the answer is: NO

We do not vote for the lesser of two evils.

Correct. We vote to lessen evil, by picking the best of the candidates who are likely to be elected.

 

[je333]

The whole point about disordered, sinful and evil BEHAVIOR is that those who freely engage in this are heading for Hell. Now, that statement may strike some as uncharitable - but, Christ Himself was quite clear about what happens to those who continue in sin - they wind up in eternal fire where the worm does not die! Maybe He was being uncharitable, too?
x

 

[je333]

Hi, Je333,