Do we worship the same God?

[hdbarton]

Milliardo:

So you think the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a false god then?

And yet if you read the Old Testament–what do you see? God would set His people against those against it. God let them overrun a place where people are not even at war with them just to claim the Promised Land. Does this mean we must foresake the Old Testament because God there does not act the way Jesus does? Of course, as Catholics we know why God is like that in the Old Testament (I will not go into that here, as it is not pertinent to the discussion), but my point is that, at least in the surface, we see God to be different in the Old and New Testament (again, the reason for that can be explained once we establish that God is our Father, but for this discussion that would only lead to a tangent that’s not relevant to the discussion).

VooDoo adherence also worship Abe and his two sons, right along with the Devil – Have you bothered to read what the Koran says Abe and his two sons are? Why we are not even sure that they recognize the same Jesus as we do since they do not name him in the Koran – ever! You really need to read more about the quardernity you worship, the father son and holy ghost and Alllah. Also, what you are saying about the old testiment is incorrect. It plainly says why Jesus killed those people. He had to. Many seekers and Jews were in those towns and converts to be! and they were killing babies in various religious rites, and they did many abortions (a worse kind of cold blooded murder!) Thats why he killed those murderers! Why don’t you read!!! While you are at it – why do you read Moslem stuff!!! If you did you would find out that they do not anywhere in Islam, consider abortion to be murder (but then, there are so many things they do not consider murder or suicide (self murder). P.S. I’m glad our VooDoo brothers also worship and respect Abe and his two sons. I did not mean to impugn them!

 

[hdbarton]

George Waters:

Cyber Knight,

It is not a case of what I or other Catholics believe, but what the Catholic Church attests to be true. Everyone has free will and can think for him or herself, but we must also recognize the collective wisdom of the church and defer to Her wisdom. The quote I provided is not simply an opinion by someone at the Vatican, but a valid and legimate directive from the Catholic Church that is to be used as the norm for teaching the faith.

Fox,

This has nothing to do with political correctness. I also struggle with this issue. As
I have stated many times in many different posts Christianity and Islam have many, many fundamental differences and I am quite skeptical of the claim Islam is a peaceful religion. However as I stated above I will defer to the wisdom of the Catholic Church who, in its authority from Jesus and under the direction of the Holy Spirit, have made the determination that Muslims do worship the God of Abraham.

If I refuse to accept this authority then I might as well be non-denominational and lose forever the fullness of the Christian faith.

hdbarton,

I know Jesus is God and I know Faith101 does not believe Jesus is God, so I am not in perfect agreement with her though I hope God is merciful to her as she is a person of good faith.

You are continuing to claim (or so I have interpreted from your posts) that Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, which is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. You also continue to state how Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God and Muslims refuse to accept Jesus as God. I am a true monotheist; there is only one God. I do not know if Muslim worship God, Satan or some figment of imagination, but I do know the Catholic Church has plainly stated that the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. By obeying this teaching of the Catholic Church I have not “stumbled into idolatry”. Also, as I have reminded you earlier, Jews do not accept Jesus as God either. Do they worship a different God? (I am hopeful that you will accept my invitation to address the God of the Jews.) Of course not, but by your criteria, they must.

Pagans? Allow me to remind you that by definition a pagan is not a Christian, Jew or Muslim, unless you want to go with the more strict definition which states all non-Christians are pagans. If you wish to use the later, then why does not the Church state “…first place amongst whom are the Jews…”?

So, if based upon the fact that I acknowledge Jesus as the Son of the Living God, know there is only one God and support the directives of the Catholic Church, which includes the teaching that salvation if through the grace of God alone and that we should not assume in our own arrogance that we can determine who will or will not go to hell than by all means sir condemn me.

Peace to you all and may we all remember to love one another as Jesus loves us.

George

Dear george, I am not denighing what the Church teaches, I am saying that Monotheism is very Good, and if you will agree with me that there is complete difference between Allah the One God of the Universe, and Allah as illustrated in the Koran who Commands that we believe that Jesus Christ is not God or the Son of God, and that there is no redemption, and Chritians who die in the faith go to the lowest Hell and are tortured forever with the worse tortures ever conceived, then I will say Allah is the same as God in principle. I don’t hate Monotheism, I hate what the koran says God says about Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit and all Christians everywhere. This Allah is a False Allah. This Allah is correct? Then Christians must be wrong. Is this Allah disembodied from the words in the Koran? Ok, then I believe It is God. Is the speaker God, who says Jesus is not God? How is it possible this god could be The God? So, Does the Koran contain the true God, or does it not? Are you saying the Koran contains lies? and that is not really discribing the real Allah? Well then, that’s a different thing altogether. P.S. The Jews do not put words in the one true God’s mouth that Jesus Christ is a fraud - in a holy Book that they swear was written by God Himself!

 

[Milliardo]

hdbarton:

VooDoo adherence also worship Abe and his two sons, right along with the Devil

There’s also an element in it not present in Islam–the use of the occult. As you also noted, the devil is also part of it. So, you can see that there’s no substance to your notion at all.

Why we are not even sure that they recognize the same Jesus as we do since they do not name him in the Koran – ever

He is called Issa in Arabic, Yeshua in Aramaic. In Latin it’s Iesu, or something like that, which translates to Jesus in English. So yes, they do name Him.

It plainly says why Jesus killed those people. He had to. Many seekers and Jews were in those towns and converts to be!

Now you’re putting in something that’s not even implied in the Bible itself. I would gather you read Joshua. Can you tell me what exactly was Jericho’s problem with the Israelites other than it being in the place they’re supposed to go through?

While you are at it – why do you read Moslem stuff!!!

I do not read Muslim stuff, but I do talk with them from time to time, and I do have some Muslim friends. Well, only 1 or 2. But those I’ve met were fine people, not at all the murderers you seem to have been told about.

If you did you would find out that they do not anywhere in Islam, consider abortion to be murder

And so–that’s their belief. We are then tasked to tell them what the Lord says about it. Does that mean we have to totally condemn them?

 

[hdbarton]

Milliardo:

There’s also an element in it not present in Islam–the use of the occult. As you also noted, the devil is also part of it. So, you can see that there’s no substance to your notion at all.

He is called Issa in Arabic, Yeshua in Aramaic. In Latin it’s Iesu, or something like that, which translates to Jesus in English. So yes, they do name Him.

Now you’re putting in something that’s not even implied in the Bible itself. I would gather you read Joshua. Can you tell me what exactly was Jericho’s problem with the Israelites other than it being in the place they’re supposed to go through?

I do not read Muslim stuff, but I do talk with them from time to time, and I do have some Muslim friends. Well, only 1 or 2. But those I’ve met were fine people, not at all the murderers you seem to have been told about.

And so–that’s their belief. We are then tasked to tell them what the Lord says about it. Does that mean we have to totally condemn them?

I really just had one complaint against the Koran, just one, that is all. I know that Jesus is god and he is the son of God, his Father and Christians who die in the faith do not go to the lowest Hell [all these thing are closely related] They say these things are lies. I say Its not fair to say that, it is rude and insensitive. they say God told them these things, I say noway. Do you want me to say, "Ok, you are right when you say the only real God in the unverse who never lies says that Jesus as you know him is a fraud? Ok, write me up a comfession and I will sign it. - but perhaps you want me to say, “These important things in your Koran about my God are not true.” I really don’t no what to do.

 

[George_Waters]

hdbarton:

Dear george, I am not denighing what the Church teaches, I am saying that Monotheism is very Good, and if you will agree with me that there is complete difference between Allah the One God of the Universe, and Allah as illustrated in the Koran who Commands that we believe that Jesus Christ is not God or the Son of God, and that there is no redemption, and Chritians who die in the faith go to the lowest Hell and are tortured forever with the worse tortures ever conceived, then I will say Allah is the same as God in principle. I don’t hate Monotheism, I hate what the koran says God says about Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit and all Christians everywhere. This Allah is a False Allah. This Allah is correct? Then Christians must be wrong. Is this Allah disembodied from the words in the Koran? Ok, then I believe It is God. Is the speaker God, who says Jesus is not God? How is it possible this god could be The God? So, Does the Koran contain the true God, or does it not? Are you saying the Koran contains lies? and that is not really discribing the real Allah? Well then, that’s a different thing altogether. P.S. The Jews do not put words in the one true God’s mouth that Jesus Christ is a fraud - in a holy Book that they swear was written by God Himself!

hdbarton,

I have not read the Quran so I cannot comment on what it does or does not say, but based on what I have read on this forum I do struggle to reconcile the one true God and the portrayal of God in the Quran. I do accept that Muslims, and Jews for that matter, worship the God of Abraham, but I believe they are lacking in understanding and have not accepted the fullness of God’s revelation.

With all do respect sir, most, if not all this conversation could have been avoided if you would have stated your case as you did in this post.

I will be away for several days, so everyone have a good week.

Peace,

George

 

[mark_a]

Are you telling us you worship most gods? How long have you been doing this? How is it working for you?

It’s working really well for now. Whatever sin I wanna commit, I just type it into my god-o-matic, and it finds me a god that allows that particular sin!

 

[losav]

Faith101:

How does refusing to ascribe ANY partners to God, or worship anything EXCEPT God make ones idea of the oneness of God tangled up?

Hi Faith101,

I came to think about that because I’ve read in one passage from the Quran that God (I suppose who gave the words directly to Mohammad), misunderstood the persons in Trinity when it says that the Father, Son and Mother (Mary) were among the Trinity which we haven’t. Is it a mistake of God or a mistake of the finite being who heard the message?

 

[hdbarton]

mark a:

It’s working really well for now. Whatever sin I wanna commit, I just type it into my god-o-matic, and it finds me a god that allows that particular sin!

pretty witty! And probably not far from the truth for a lot of us

 

[hdbarton]

George Waters:

hdbarton,

I have not read the Quran so I cannot comment on what it does or does not say, but based on what I have read on this forum I do struggle to reconcile the one true God and the portrayal of God in the Quran. I do accept that Muslims, and Jews for that matter, worship the God of Abraham, but I believe they are lacking in understanding and have not accepted the fullness of God’s revelation.

With all do respect sir, most, if not all this conversation could have been avoided if you would have stated your case as you did in this post.

I will be away for several days, so everyone have a good week.

Peace,

George

Well, I don’t want to “avoid this conversation”. I found it enjoyable and I thought you did too! It has taught me to love allah as much as I do His Son and The divine Overseer. But I still have this problem with the Holy Koran which states as the infailable truth that Jesus did not die for the redemption of all of Mankind, and that He did not die on the cross, and any one who dares to think so will be immediatly thrown down to the lowest Hell and tortured with the most disgustin tortures for ever and ever - that jesus is not Allah’s son, and Allah, being sterile, finds that concept evil and sickening! Here is what I am trying to find out! If I confess that Allah is Jesus Christ, as so many people tell me that is what the Holy Father wants me to do, may I then critize the Koran as being corrupt and full of lies? May I say that this is an evil book because it claims infailable truth about things which are compleate fabrications and falsehoods? May I attack the Holy Koran, or by doing so will I offend the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Pope and Allah? I really am capable to launching such a Crusade against the Mighty Koran, so I really do need feedback as to whether or not I can attack this book as being full of untruth and sillyness (I am really serious about this!) Please continue to give me feedback, I love it and need it. Geroge, you are the one who who invited me to post here, now why do you wish we had never had these conversations? Is this the end of our friendship because I took a chanch on saying that the Allah in the Koran is a false Allah and a Devil? Ok, I’ll take it back if you just ask me and restore our friendship - my hatred of what the Koran promises is true about Jesus and his Christian brothers and sisters has cost me the friendship of a brother I thought had really understood me :banghead: (am I wrong? or am I right? until I know I am nothing - please help me decide, sorry to dispoint you so severely.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear George,

This has nothing to do with political correctness. I also struggle with this issue. As This has nothing to do with political correctness. I also struggle with this issue. As
I have stated many times in many different posts Christianity and Islam have many, many fundamental differences and I am quite skeptical of the claim Islam is a peaceful religion. However as I stated above I will defer to the wisdom of the Catholic Church who, in its authority from Jesus and under the direction of the Holy Spirit, have made the determination that Muslims do worship the God of Abraham.

If I refuse to accept this authority then I might as well be non-denominational and lose forever the fullness of the Christian faith.

Faith without questioning and struggling, crying and praying, is not a faith, but blind devotion. Not that I undermine the papalis words. I know they are much more knowledgeable than most of us in Christian Faith.
But in these days, people tend to be politically correct. Many peope issue their statements (especially people in power) that sometimes not in accordance with Bible, just because they avoid to reveal truth that make other party get upset and do riots. But is it what Jesus taught us? NO. He spoke the truth even if the Pharises hated him.

This is just my own thought. I hope you will not find it offending.

Take care, Brother,

Fox

 

[losav]

DeExupery:

Dear George,

Faith without questioning and struggling, crying and praying, is not a faith, but blind devotion. Not that I undermine the papalis words. I know they are much more knowledgeable than most of us in Christian Faith.
But in these days, people tend to be politically correct. Many peope issue their statements (especially people in power) that sometimes not in accordance with Bible, just because they avoid to reveal truth that make other party get upset and do riots. But is it what Jesus taught us? NO. He spoke the truth even if the Pharises hated him.

This is just my own thought. I hope you will not find it offending.

Take care, Brother,

Fox

I use to think that way before but after I have good and tolerant Muslim friends who think exactly as we think, I started to consider that Muslims are capable of embracing peace.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Iosav,

I use to think that way before but after I have good and tolerant Muslim friends who think exactly as we think, I started to consider that Muslims are capable of embracing peace.

If you can differ tolerant moslems from not tolerant moslems, it will be wonderful. Can you?
For your info, most suicide bombers in Indonesia looked peaceful until suddenly they blew themselves up.
As long as they thought about jihad, Surah 9:29 (and other surah), about heaven with 72 virgins, any moslems are potential to be a suicide bomber.

Fox

P.S. How do you know your friends are not playing taqiyya?

 

[losav]

DeExupery:

Dear Iosav,

If you can differ tolerant moslems from not tolerant moslems, it will be wonderful. Can you?
For your info, most suicide bombers in Indonesia looked peaceful until suddenly they blew themselves up.
As long as they thought about jihad, Surah 9:29 (and other surah), about heaven with 72 virgins, any moslems are potential to be a suicide bomber.

Fox

P.S. How do you know your friends are not playing taqiyya?

I only have to trust them. Even within our members, we don’t trust everyone because not everyone is good. And so the Muslims.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Iosav,

I only have to trust them. Even within our members, we don’t trust everyone because not everyone is good. And so the Muslims.

Life is yours. The choices are in your hands. Besides, we have been out of topic about this. So no further comment.

Fox

P.S. Besides, have I ever mentioned about attacking moslems? All I try to reason is the teaching, buddy.

 

[losav]

DeExupery:

Dear Iosav,

Life is yours. The choices are in your hands. Besides, we have been out of topic about this. So no further comment.

Fox

P.S. Besides, have I ever mentioned about attacking moslems? All I try to reason is the teaching, buddy.

Thnaks buddy for respecting my opinion. I thought that maybe demonstrating my CAtholic Faith would speak more of its beaty than words may tell.

Have a nice day, i’m going offline now. Tomorrow again.

 

[Boa_Constrictor]

Dear Iosav,

Thnaks buddy for respecting my opinion. I thought that maybe demonstrating my CAtholic Faith would speak more of its beaty than words may tell.

Don’t do something because you think then people will see you and praise you (and praise your Catholic Faith). Be true like a child.
The beauty of a flower is not because it tries to pose beautifully, but because it becomes a flower, and as a flower, it’s enough. Fragance and beauty follow.

In Brotherly Love,

Boa

 

[losav]

Boa Constrictor:

Dear Iosav,

Don’t do something because you think then people will see you and praise you (and praise your Catholic Faith). Be true like a child.
The beauty of a flower is not because it tries to pose beautifully, but because it becomes a flower, and as a flower, it’s enough. Fragance and beauty follow.

In Brotherly Love,

Boa

Hi Boa,

I don’t fault the Muslims for what they believe. I do respect their beliefs and they are doing the same. Isn’t it wonderful to have a community like that? But of course, I must admit that still there is a lot more task every Muslim should do to correct some of their basic beliefs but it’s kinda hard coz it’s litterally written in their holy book not to mingle with non-believers (I’m not sure if this is right).

 

[Boa_Constrictor]

Dear Iosav,

I don’t fault the Muslims for what they believe. I do respect their beliefs and they are doing the same. Isn’t it wonderful to have a community like that? But of course, I must admit that still there is a lot more task every Muslim should do to correct some of their basic beliefs but it’s kinda hard coz it’s litterally written in their holy book not to mingle with non-believers (I’m not sure if this is right).

You have already admitted that it’s hard. So do you agree that somewhat their book has a dangerous content.
The problem with our brother moslems is that they consider their holy book as ‘holy’ and ‘directly from God’ (thus should be followed to every dot), while Christians consider mostly their ugly OT as historical book.

Boa

 

[losav]

Boa Constrictor:

Dear Iosav,

You have already admitted that it’s hard. So do you agree that somewhat their book has a dangerous content.
The problem with our brother moslems is that they consider their holy book as ‘holy’ and ‘directly from God’ (thus should be followed to every dot), while Christians consider mostly their ugly OT as historical book.

Boa

Hi Brother Boa,

Sorry, but still I have to love them more than ever. Isn’t it love that built the Church?

God bless.
-losav

 

[cyprian]

Please read Hillaire Belloc’s The Great Heresies, here we find the true history from a non-biased historian. A convert to Catholicism he may well be but he is a historian first.

Peace