Do Women Belong to Their Fathers Until They Get Married?

[babochka]

Nor does marriage remove you from the family, so it could be argued that the patriarchy has Spiritual Authority over everybody in the family for as long as he lives, sons and daughter alike, married or not. That would place the husband’s spiritually authority subordinate to his wife’s father and also to his own father.

 

[Jen7]

Ok. So at what age does a child, specifically a daughter have her own spiritual all authority?

What on earth is spiritual authority? Authority over my spirit? Ain’t no one got authority over my spirit, thank you very much.

 

[blackforest]

Yep. But unfortunately those determined to believe the wrong information are twisting Church teaching and promulgating the misinformation widely.

All these dubious so called Church teaching that seem to crop up on a regular basis on this forum, seem to be originating from a Father Ripperger.

Who is this priest’s bishop? Perhaps this bishop can clarify some of these dicier issues?

A priest who barely knows you has authority that people are offended that a father or husband might have!

I think you’re confusing “authoritarian” with “authoritative.” My priest’s advice is the latter. He offers me guidance based on Church teaching - a topic in which he has expertise; he does not bark orders at me.

If I break a bone and need advice on recovery, I ask an orthopedist. If I need to identify a rock, I ask a geologist or mineralogist. If I have theological and spiritual questions pertaining to my Catholic faith, I ask a priest.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

All these dubious so called Church teaching that seem to crop up on a regular basis on this forum, seem to be originating from a Father Ripperger.

Realizing that you’re free to completely ignore Father Ripperger is

 

[Leek]

Men can take care of kids too. But I see the real problem is that today’s society is consumption oriented instead of family oriented. Whether Kids get the benefit of mom or dad or grandparents aunt and uncles available to take care of them having a family structure where’s there’s time and breathing room is valuable. This pandemic has shown the problems of not valuing the work of caregiver that has traditionally been done by women.

 

[Sarcelle]

Which I do the vast majority of the time.

Occasionally I like to discuss what he says.

 

[redcatholic]

I think you might also be confused. Authority only exists in a disagreement. You are confusing style with substance. “ barking orders” might be an ineffective way to yield authority and other ways might be more effective but it has nothing to do with actual authority. So how do you know if your priest is acting on authority or is using correctly and with the teaching ms of the Church? Where does a well formed conscience come in? Where do your responsibilities as a parent come in? Authority comes from responsibility. This pandemic has taught us two valuable things. We are confused about the concept of authority and when that confusion happens we tend to believe anyone who claims authority. And the second is the rise and awareness of the domestic Church, and the role of a priest.

 

[1ke]

Who is this priest’s bishop?

he is a member of the FSSP

 

[redcatholic]

Well you can start with Jesus, then you could continue with scripture, which gives authority to parents, spouses and the Church. Now where that falls in the hierarchy or what extension is what is up for debate. You might be the captain of your soul but you have to sail that vessel in charted waters.

 

[TC3033]

Well, that’s an interesting way to look at marriage. I was an NCO as well and I’m pretty sure if I compared our marriage life to that of out ranking her the same way I out ranked the solders under me…I’m pretty sure I’d be seeing papers shortly there after.

So women shouldn’t own property? Women who work are “abandoning” their families? The picture of where you are coming from is much clearer now.

That poster also cited Ripperger upthread. This is Ripperger 101, especially the bolded.

 

[Jen7]

Well you can start with Jesus, then you could continue with scripture, which gives authority to parents, spouses and the Church.

But spiritual authority?! My parents never had spiritual authority over me. Physical authority, sure. They could give me a 10pm curfew. But they could not tell me I had a vocation to married life (a spiritual reality).

[Funny story: a handful of years ago a priest stopped my mom after Mass. He had known our family but it had been almost a decade since he’d seen us. “The Holy Spirit commanded me to tell you that your daughter has a vocation to religious life!” He announced after Mass. “Well,” said my mom, “Um… She’s married with four kids now.” Him: “Oh.” See? The priest didn’t have spiritual authority over me. Even if I hadn’t been married yet, I still wouldn’t have had to obey him or anything.]

The Church speaks on Faith & Morals. That I must obey. But how I live that out spiritually is my choice. Pastors can advise but not command in that realm. Parents have physical authority - they can take away a teen’s car keys. But they cannot demand that the teen become a 3rd Order Benedictine or even receive Communion daily or some such. A spouse cannot demand that his wife join him at daily Mass or pray the Chaplet of St. Ann everyday or feel she is ready to take on another pregnancy. Sorry, nope. I discern those things WITH my spouse. He does not discern FOR me.

My spirit is autonomous. It answers only to God. It bows only in Faith & Morals to His Church.

 

[blackforest]

You are confusing style with substance.

No, authority can be authoritative or authoritarian. “Barking orders” is just one form of authoritarianism. On the matter of whether or not a woman “belongs” to her dad and then “belongs” to her husband, clergy will know more than we do.

So how do you know if your priest is acting on authority or is using correctly and with the teaching ms of the Church? Where does a well formed conscience come in?

I suggest reading up on the role of conscience and prudential judgment in Catholicism. On some matters, the Church speaks clearly. Most matters, however, have some ambiguity to them, in which consultation with a priest could provide helpful spiritual guidance as you make your choice.

 

[redcatholic]

Clergy knows more about that? Which ones?
The point is when a priest abuses or misused his authority something with authority overrides that. Recently We had an issue with a youth director, appealed to a priest who really acted in a horrid way. Appealed to the bishop and asserted authority over even the bishop. This is rare. The priest in the story is an incredibly holy and learned man. I respect his theological leadership most of the time and bow to his knowledge of many subjects. This one was outside of his scope. And he couldn’t see that. I suppose the argument can be made that the bishop by hearing us and agreeing with us had authority. But even then, not with my kids. I’m charged with the primary responsibility of the children’s faith instruction. Other people also are charged to assist but I, as the primary educator of the faith have the largest authority. Whoever is responsible has the authority. So does a priest have authority over my children, yes, but not superior to my own.

 

[redcatholic]

Jen, your parents, if Catholic, definitely had spiritual authority over you. They may have never used it, they may have used it in a way that you don’t perceive as authority. They may have neglected it. But they had it. Perhaps they neglected it. They had it because they are charged with the responsibility to do certain things. To have responsibility you must have authority.

 

[redcatholic]

So what if father Jones in Oz says a woman should submit to her husband in all things financial and spiritual. The couple moved to la la land and father call me Dave says no, that is wrong. Both priests exercise authority, does mere geography dictate the ebb and flow of the marriage?

 

[Rau]

I would say that is not a moral teaching, which is the same as always, but a discipline teaching, which can change.

But honestly, I know this question will make me hated today, why is our society so much better than that one? Why exactly is that bad? ( just a question, not a personal belief )
[/quote]

Perhaps this demonstrates why catechisms are supplanted by newer versions from time to time.

 

[blackforest]

Clergy knows more about that? Which ones?

Priests are experts in theology and Catholic teaching, the same way the orthopedist is an expert on your bones. Both have studies more on these topics. Can they be wrong? Sure - that is what’s at issue in this thread. Can they abuse that authority? Entirely too often. I’m simply pointing out where the overall expertise is.

Whoever is responsible has the authority. So does a priest have authority over my children, yes, but not superior to my own.

Catholic teaching, as conveyed to you by your priest, is authoritative, but not authoritarian. In the family context, we parents wield more authority - on that I’ll agree - but your priest holds more knowledge. We’re the primary educators, but we must approach that with a degree of humility; there’s a lot that I do not understand about the Catholic faith, and I can turn to Church teaching - i.e. Scripture, reason, and tradition - for guidance. But said guidance isn’t as black and white as you seem to be portraying it.

 

[blackforest]

Ordination does not magically endow someone with wisdom of the faith.

You’re aware that it take more than ordination to become a priest, right? How to Become a Catholic Priest - Scripture Catholic

Just as I don’t worship my doctor for going to med school, it isn’t “clericalism” to acknowledge humbly that seminary graduates will have knowledge that I don’t. It would be arrogant of me to claim otherwise.

St. John Vianney was by all accounts, dumb, he not only struggled with seminary but failed several times.

Struggling in school doesn’t make a person “dumb.” It can signal anything from ADHD or dyslexia, (both undiagnosed during his time), to serious environmental stressors going on like - oh, say - the French Revolution . . .

I don’t hear anyone claiming that it takes any kind of special degree or credential to become a saint, MDiv or otherwise; plenty of saints in our faith lacked that kind of formal education. Knowledge and wisdom aren’t the same thing. A well-qualified priests hopefully has both, but not always.

Hopefully out of this pandemic, comes a renewed understanding of what a priest is and what his duties are. And what a spouse is and a father or mother and what their duties are when the bureaucratic structures of most parishes are stripped away.

I’m sorry you see your parish as a bureaucratic impediment to your role as a parent. I find that my faith life in my parish compliments that role for me rather than taking away from it. Perhaps a new parish may be in order for you?

 

[OddBird]

My parish priest holds more knowledge on the catholic faith than I do!? How could you possibly know that?

Um, maybe because they spent four years in seminary studying theology in order to, you know, be knowledgeable?

 

[twf]

But spiritual authority?! My parents never had spiritual authority over me. Physical authority, sure. They could give me a 10pm curfew. But they could not tell me I had a vocation to married life (a spiritual reality).

They could bless you. Laity can’t generally bless other laity (we can ask God to bless, or we can pray for each other, but that’s not the same thing). Parents, however, can bless their children. That’s spiritual authority. More profoundly, a priest can bless anyone…and absolve our sins…that’s spiritual authority.