Do women have to go too far to get the attention of men?

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TinyTina

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Hi forum! You guys have helped me in the past, and I periodically browse this site even though I haven’t posted in years. This is not a problem so much as a discussion that I had with a niece of mine that I would like some more Catholic thoughts on.

My 22 year old niece will be graduating from a small, wonderful, Catholic college in December, and from there, she’s on to graduate school :). She is bright, funny, and very pretty. She was raised Catholic and has been very true to her faith all of her life. However, she has never had a boyfriend.

Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I know that she is frustrated with her situation, and I know that she feels like no one will ever want to be with her. But this just isn’t true! I’m afraid that these thoughts will end up leading her to do things with men that she knows are wrong out of desperation. Is there anything I can say to her to make her understand that the men she thinks are “passing her over” wouldn’t have much in common with her anyway?
 
Today’s American male has 1/2 the testosterone of his grandpa. And a parallel dilemma is increased estrogen levels in males from exposure to chemicals, phyto-estrogens like marijuana, and endogenous sources like gut yeast overgrowth from antibiotic use as Candida creates its own estrogen. High estrogen levels in males has been shown to cause increased violence towards females in a Japanese study. I’d advise the young lady to WAIT and migrate to a nice, detoxified community and find a Catholic rancher who is marijuana-free and eating a lot of Omega 3 grass-fed beef and lamb and who occasionally indulges in Rocky Mountain Oysters.

To restate this, the increasing immodesty of females may be directly related to the horrific state of modern male hormones. God bless America and help us in our distress.
 
Let her know that there is no hurry. My daughter didn’t marry until the age of 25, and that was to a young man of the same Protestant denomination she was going to. I think that if a young woman waits, the right man will come along. Not to say that she not talk to guys in the mean time. Being friends with a guy is a good start. Better than what I did. I fell for the first hormone raging man who showed me any “decency.” Needless to say it didn’t last long. Let her get her degree and a job before worrying about any boyfriend. Men have a tendency to be late bloomers.
 
She is still young but I can only imagine the eye rolling she’d let loose if she hears that statement one more time…😉

It’s really tough at this age because women are almost expected to be at least in a serious relationship and discerning marriage by now. Especially a young lady who is off to graduate school and seems to be lining her ducks up.

I met my husband when I was 24 and we got married when we were 28. I was convinced at age 23 that I wasn’t going to find a good man to marry and would probably be single for my whole life and have no kids.
The guys that I dated, up until that point, were immature and just not marriage material at all.

She just needs to keep putting her trust in the Lord. It’s tough though.
 
It all depends on whose attention she wants to get.

You have given her good advice, but I strongly believe it’s far more powerful to keep praying for her. Do both, as long as your words are well received.

There might be some excellent books that would give her a good perspective- like books written by Jason Evert, Christopher West, and others well grounded in the Theology of the Body.

Those good guys may not be common, but they are out there. It’s definitely in her best interest to wait. And sign her up to Ave Maria Singles as a gift!! There are quite a large portion of good guys there, I think, that follow the teachings of Christ and His Church very faithfully.

Pray the rosary for her!
 
There is no rush and there is also the Catholic Dating sites.

foryourmarriage.org/catholic-and-other-dating-websites/
ncregister.com/daily-news/a-look-at-online-dating-for-catholics-benefits-but-also-risks/

If I were single today, I think i would try a Catholic dating site.

It’s not a replacement for finding a spouse the old fashioned way, but it could help.

There is also the annual National Catholic Singles Conference (which is this weekend). Perhaps she could attend next year? nationalcatholicsingles.com

Ultimately, there is no need to rush. Good Catholic guys are out there, and will become easier to find in time. Also, if the grad school she’s going to attend isn’t Catholic, she should check out the campus’ Catholic Student Ministry (sometimes called a Newman Center). They will have daily and Sunday Mass, plus fellow students (grad and undergrad) who are practicing Catholics.

May The Lord grant her patience so she finds her true soulmate.
Amen.
 
The next time I have to read one of those silly chastity brochures that explains how sex shouldn’t be that important to men because, after all, there will be periods where sex with one’s spouse is not possible, I think I’m gonna start referring these authors to our Lord and maker and have them take it up with Him. It’s how God chose to make most of us, for some reason. 🤷

Rant aside, I absolutely do believe it’s possible to find a man to date and marry that will not demand pre-marital sex. But it’s probably best to look for a man that is willing to marry sooner rather than later. A 4,5,6+ year relationship without the prospect of sex (not even oral sex!) would be quite a pill for a young man.

Can she find this man while dressing modestly? In a way, she might be required to dress modestly to meet the type of man we’re talking about here. A chaste man, by definition, is not chasing an immodestly dressed woman.

As I’m sure you know, there’s a difference between dressing modestly in an attractive way and dressing modestly in a boring and/or frumpy way. I think it would be really important for her to understand that difference. Of course a chaste man isn’t looking for an immodestly dressed woman but that doesn’t mean he’s looking for someone that’s sexually repulsive to him, either.
 
The attention of any man good or bad is so easy that any woman looking to meet one would be better off in a parka or similarly unrevealing clothing, but suited for the weather. This way she can see his eyes looking at hers and get a good or bad first impression.
 
As a female in my 20s, I can attest to her feelings. You won’t get as much male attention if they realize you are saving yourself for marriage. However, the 3 guys I have dated have been really good men, so in the end, I’d say I’ve had less heartbreak than the average woman throwing herself out there.
 
She may be right in that some men will overlook her for a woman who will cater to their fancies. But, she wants to be passed over by those men. They are not who she needs. A man who sees her faithfulness, modesty, piety, and finds attraction to that beauty… now that is the man she wants. And as trite as it may sound, it will happen if it’s meant to.
 
TinyTina said:
Hi forum! You guys have helped me in the past, and I periodically browse this site even though I haven’t posted in years. This is not a problem so much as a discussion that I had with a niece of mine that I would like some more Catholic thoughts on.

My 22 year old niece will be graduating from a small, wonderful, Catholic college in December, and from there, she’s on to graduate school :). She is bright, funny, and very pretty. She was raised Catholic and has been very true to her faith all of her life. However, she has never had a boyfriend.

Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I know that she is frustrated with her situation, and I know that she feels like no one will ever want to be with her. But this just isn’t true! I’m afraid that these thoughts will end up leading her to do things with men that she knows are wrong out of desperation. Is there anything I can say to her to make her understand that the men she thinks are “passing her over” wouldn’t have much in common with her anyway?
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I hope some of the single guys from recent guy-centered threads will see this, because what your niece is describing is the other side of the coin. There’s been good advice so far.

Some more thoughts:
  1. For quite a while, normal colleges have been terrible for dating for undergraduates. As in, there isn’t any. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, there was no dating when I was in college 20 years ago, either. Going into college, I was unaware of that and I expected that I would at least wind up with a nice Christian fiance by the end of college (my parents had married in college) so it was quite a bummer to discover that that was not going to be the case.
  2. Grad school is FANTASTIC time to meet a future spouse–that’s how I met mine.
  3. 22 is much too early to panic. I met my husband at 22 within a few weeks of arriving at my graduate school and was married before 23. No promises, but it’s a much better environment–people are more mature and ready to move on with adult life. The average age of first marriage in the US for women is now something like 27. Save panic for 30.
  4. As we’ve discovered in recent posts, a lot of nice Catholic men expect the archangel Gabriel to hand deliver their bride. There are lots of complaints of loneliness from men who rarely or never ask women out. Some more assertiveness may be in order for your niece. A lot of traditional etiquette books give tips on how to ask men out without being too forward. “Some friends and I are going to XYZ, wanna come?” or “I have an extra ticket to ABC, wanna come?” are oldies but goodies.
  5. An interesting phenomenon that I am starting to notice is that a lot of guys for some mysterious reason are incapable of seeing single women or noticing when women express friendly interest. It’s like the guys are wearing some kind of magic glasses that render nice girls invisible. They ask, “where do I find a nice girl?” or “why are all the girls so slutty these days?” while the nice girls are all wondering, “Yoohoo, can’t anybody see me?” The trick is to make yourself visible and finding a good guy while not compromising morals or dignity.
Good luck to your niece!
 
TinyTina said:
Hi forum! You guys have helped me in the past, and I periodically browse this site even though I haven’t posted in years. This is not a problem so much as a discussion that I had with a niece of mine that I would like some more Catholic thoughts on.

My 22 year old niece will be graduating from a small, wonderful, Catholic college in December, and from there, she’s on to graduate school :). She is bright, funny, and very pretty. She was raised Catholic and has been very true to her faith all of her life. However, she has never had a boyfriend.

Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I know that she is frustrated with her situation, and I know that she feels like no one will ever want to be with her. But this just isn’t true! I’m afraid that these thoughts will end up leading her to do things with men that she knows are wrong out of desperation. Is there anything I can say to her to make her understand that the men she thinks are “passing her over” wouldn’t have much in common with her anyway?
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I don’t think this is true. Of course she can’t just " stand in a corner. " She has to be personable, she has to have a good personality, be willing to mix in a group and have innocent fun. Lot’s of things people can do to get to know each other which doesn’t have anything to do with sex. But let her know there is nothing wrong with her being single and taking her place in the world. And who knows when lightening will strike there!

The main thing is to do God’s will and pray for that!

Linus2nd
 
First of all may I say how wonderful it is that your niece at this early age is willing to honour her Catholic faith by protecting her chastity.

Maybe the following analogy will offer some encouragement.
(I apologize in advance for the car analogy but it is the only one I could think of at this hour of night).
In a used car lot there are a lot of cars being sold every day. Most of these will be the generic brands, affordable, fuel efficient, cheap to run etc… But there is also one porsche 911 classic which, after being there for a few months, has recently been relegated to the corner. It is extremely fuel inefficient, costs an absolute fortune and you don’t even want to think about the monthly insurance premium. But the porsche does not worry as it sees the other cars being sold every day. Because the porsche knows exactly what it is and why it must never change. That there is someone out there willing to go through all the expense just so they can have what only this special car, can offer.

It may also be of some comfort to know I am in the exact same situation. The hardest thing to do is to find hope but I don’t think we have a choice but to hope. We are who we are because our loving GOD made us that way and we know why we must never change for the sake of the world around us.
 
On reflection, I probably didn’t do myself any favors with my college wardrobe, which was (especially early on) drab and not exceptionally flattering. So, here’s point #6:
  1. Avoid wearing clothing that closely resembles those favored by female members of polygamous cults.
 
Jerurussia said:
Today’s American male has 1/2 the testosterone of his grandpa.
Click to expand...
I read this and I was like, Huh?
And a parallel dilemma is increased estrogen levels in males from exposure to chemicals, phyto-estrogens like marijuana, and endogenous sources like gut yeast overgrowth from antibiotic use as Candida creates its own estrogen.
Click to expand...
I read this and I was like :eek:
I’d advise the young lady to WAIT and migrate to a nice, detoxified community and find a Catholic rancher who is marijuana-free and eating a lot of Omega 3 grass-fed beef and lamb and who occasionally indulges in Rocky Mountain Oysters.
Click to expand...
I read this and I was like, That’s the weirdest prescription I’ve ever seen anybody give. :clapping:
 
I glanced most of the other comments so forgive me if I be redundant.

I can tell you, as a 21 yr old single male, that she doesn’t need to wear or do particular things (immoral) in order to attract my attention. In fact, were she to wear excessively provocative clothing I would take that as a turnoff and become much less interested. To me, a woman who is wearing modest clothing, is confident in herself and loves who she is (in a faith driven manner, not prideful), and is intelligent forcing me to always become a better person is what would interest me. One of the most important qualities I look for (besides faith) is that a woman is passionate/driven enough to ‘force’ me into becoming better; that she have a standard that I must try to achieve and even feel compelled to surpass.

To sum up, she should absolutely wait for the right man! Trust in the Lord. If she lives every day in complete trust the Lord’s will for her will prevail; it may mean not becoming married, or even dating, until she is 30, but it is the way (the only way) that she will be most at peace.

Also, being single doesn’t have to be a bad thing!
 
TinyTina said:
Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I know that she is frustrated with her situation, and I know that she feels like no one will ever want to be with her. But this just isn’t true! I’m afraid that these thoughts will end up leading her to do things with men that she knows are wrong out of desperation. Is there anything I can say to her to make her understand that the men she thinks are “passing her over” wouldn’t have much in common with her anyway?
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I think the times we live in are very hard for young women. So much is expected and they are pressured to be thin, have cosmetic surgery, dress a certain way… I could go on but I think you get the picture. I admit a bias but I really do feel there is much more pressure on women to meet the expectations of others than men. It is a basic human need to feel loved and valued by others yet we live in a very loveless world were people are a commodity. The vast majority of people we know are only interested in us when they want something - usually to their benefit and our detriment. It’s hardly surprising young women get depressed.

The reality is we cannot change how others behave. There is no doubt our lives would be so much easier if everyone would do what we thought they should. The reality is they will not. To be honest I feel at a loss as to what to say to young people today. I grew up in Belfast in the 70’s and I felt more equipped to deal with that situation than contemporary society. In addition, I have boys so on that score I feel inadequate in terms of offering any advice.

All I could say is learn to love and value yourself. Work on your own self-esteem. People who have a high (but balanced) sense of self-esteem don’t concern themselves to the same extent about the things you mention, and I think young women are more vulnerable to low self-esteem as the consequence of the things I mention, and it is so much harder when you are young. When you get older you don’t care as much. If we look to others to make us happy we will be disappointed.

It is actually better to be alone than have false friends - or boyfriends. Learn to like your own company and be happy to be alone. There is nothing wrong in being alone and it has advantages. Your not at anyone’s beck and call and you don’t have to dance on anyone else’s strings. I do not mean isolate oneself, I mean you play the hand you are dealt. If you choose to live your live a certain way there are consequences, but being true to yourself always pays off in the long run. I would describe myself as a free spirit and sometimes I have paid the price for that. I have not always been happy about it but we are who we are. We will never be happy trying to be a person others want us to be if it is not us.

I hope this helps but I feel it is not a good answer in that we only appreciate these things when we are older.
 
A guy not willing to wait, is not worth waiting for. Sounds like if you niece is not careful… she is really going to have a wonderful life! I am happy for you both!🙂
 
Fritos2 said:
I glanced most of the other comments so forgive me if I be redundant.

I can tell you, as a 21 yr old single male, that she doesn’t need to wear or do particular things (immoral) in order to attract my attention. In fact, were she to wear excessively provocative clothing I would take that as a turnoff and become much less interested. To me, a woman who is wearing modest clothing, is confident in herself and loves who she is (in a faith driven manner, not prideful), and is intelligent forcing me to always become a better person is what would interest me. One of the most important qualities I look for (besides faith) is that a woman is passionate/driven enough to ‘force’ me into becoming better; that she have a standard that I must try to achieve and even feel compelled to surpass.

To sum up, she should absolutely wait for the right man! Trust in the Lord. If she lives every day in complete trust the Lord’s will for her will prevail; it may mean not becoming married, or even dating, until she is 30, but it is the way (the only way) that she will be most at peace.

Also, being single doesn’t have to be a bad thing!
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That’s very sweet, but have you asked any of those modestly dressed women out in the last 90 days?
 
On the contrary, I personally would love to meet a young Catholic woman my own age - I am 23 - who would refuse to have sex until marriage.

We do exist - few as we are. But it’s better not to want such a man as would demand her virginity.

Has she ever tried sites like ChristianMingle or CatholicMatch?
Xantippe said:
That’s very sweet, but have you asked any of those modestly dressed women out in the last 90 days?
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See, that’s half the trouble. I have as much trouble finding a decent woman as the OP’s daughter has finding a decent man. Or if you can, how do you know whether they are good Catholics or not? Another part of the problem is money and transportation. Kinda difficult to see that nice Orthodox girl in Missouri when you live in Omaha and almost never drive, much less interstate, and only have a part-time job.

So some of my problems might be on my end. Maybe she is being limited by something, too.
 
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