Do women have to go too far to get the attention of men?

[Fritos2]

That’s very sweet, but have you asked any of those modestly dressed women out in the last 90 days?

There is only one girl I currently know who, I think, fits what I hope to find in a woman. Originally I only saw her as a friend but have come to believe she may be more than that. Not asking someone out in the last 3 months doesn’t prove my ideal impossible; nor does it mean I am a scared little bunny, as you had said most single male posters on here seem to be (whether you included me or not doesn’t really matter). I am in no hurry to date or marry as I have a lot of other important decisions to currently worry about.

 

[Xantippe]

So is it wrong for a virgin to want to find a virgin to marry? Or even for a non-virgin to want to marry a virgin if they have committed themselves to chastity? Some of these comments make it sound like I should have wanted my wife to have had sex with at least a dozen other men before we started dating, or that I should have had sex with at least a dozen other women first.

I think these comments are coming from a position of defensiveness. Yes, you have lost something when you have had premarital sex, something you can never get back. No, you aren’t worthless.

Are we supposed to just gloss over it as if nothing had happened? Is it really of no consequence at all? Is it not better to be virgins when you marry? That’s my bottom line question. The way some people are talking it doesn’t seem like they think that.

Personally I do think it makes a difference. It isn’t the end of the world or anything, so don’t act like I am saying it is the end all be all. At a certain age it becomes impractical to look for a virgin, probably around 25.

We were both virgins. I don’t pass judgement on anyone else, but when I was looking that was definitely a criteria. Perhaps it wasn’t a critical one, I don’t remember, but it wasn’t a minor issue either. I know it is rare that two virgins get married these days, but that is still the ideal, and in my opinion, to be preferred. I see no reason why a girl who is a virgin shouldn’t look for a man who is one as well. She might have trouble finding one or find a man she likes who isn’t, and that’s fine, it isn’t as if pre-marital sex makes one a leper or anything, but don’t act as if it is of no consequence. Perhaps it is a defect on my part, but I wouldn’t want to marry a woman who had slept with someone else.

My comments are directed towards young people on their first marriage and in no way include widows or divorced people. I see sex within marriage as nothing to worry about, I just wouldn’t count that as being the same as premarital sex. Also, there’s a difference to me I think with someone who just had a weak night and someone who has had sex with their last 10 boyfriends.

To clarify, it is perfectly fine to prefer a virgin spouse. It is not, however, acceptable to talk about chaste, faithful fellow Christians as being “used cars,” “high mileage,” licked Snickers bars, overhandled roses, etc. You won’t find that sort of insulting language in the New Testament, and yet there were certainly many 1st century Christians (especially gentile converts) with extensive and unsavory sexual pasts.

That kind of language does not glorify God or help the fallen person get on their feet. Part of the problem with the analogy is that it’s one-way–there’s no point in the “used car” repenting and changing its ways, because no matter what it does, it can’t turn back the odometer or reverse the effects of tens or hundreds of thousands of miles of use. So, you might ask, what is the whole point of this Christianity thing if it has no comfort or mercy to offer sinners, if there is no redemption, no hope of turning away from sin and walking away? Yuck.

I think the purity

 

[Xantippe]

There is only one girl I currently know who, I think, fits what I hope to find in a woman. Originally I only saw her as a friend but have come to believe she may be more than that. Not asking someone out in the last 3 months doesn’t prove my ideal impossible; nor does it mean I am a scared little bunny, as you had said most single male posters on here seem to be (whether you included me or not doesn’t really matter). I am in no hurry to date or marry as I have a lot of other important decisions to currently worry about.

The girl you like might give up hope in finding somebody decent if nobody shows any romantic interest in her.

She might even despair and fall into sin because you don’t make a move.

 

[CatholicGuy31]

I can tell you, as a 21 yr old single male, that she doesn’t need to wear or do particular things (immoral) in order to attract my attention. In fact, were she to wear excessively provocative clothing I would take that as a turnoff and become much less interested. To me, a woman who is wearing modest clothing, is confident in herself and loves who she is (in a faith driven manner, not prideful), and is intelligent forcing me to always become a better person is what would interest me. One of the most important qualities I look for (besides faith) is that a woman is passionate/driven enough to ‘force’ me into becoming better; that she have a standard that I must try to achieve and even feel compelled to surpass.

Thank you for posting. I think it is really a blessing that you have realized this at such a young age. I feel exactly the same way, although it took me a bit longer than 21 to realize this (particularly the part about being driven to be a better Catholic).

I wish you every success in finding your future wife.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

For those who have fallen into sexual sin, there is reconciliation and repentance. That can take care of the spiritual side if one is repentant enough, but one must still take on the temporal consequences of that sin which could be physical or mental or both. Won’t go further with this topic as this isn’t the thread for it, just wanted to remind the “holier than thou” types that there is a place in the Church for rest of us.

For the OP’s niece, I’ll offer one bit of advice that has been offered more indirectly than I’ll say it here and one more bit of advice I haven’t seen offered by anyone else:

First, she has to get out of the house, period. Phrased another way, the Lord isn’t in the business of delivering good spouses to them who stay home and do nothing but pray or complain. What to do to outside has been discussed already, some things fit the niece, some don’t. But she isn’t allowed to say “nothing fits at all”. Because if she does say that, then I can only conclude she’s not serious about finding a husband. The point is to get out the door. Try different things. Goes for the guys too, btw…

Second, she should widen her age filter to include men 3 to 8 years older than her. The idea behind this is that chances are good that there will be more of them who are ready for marriage than she can find at or close to her own age.

 

[Xantippe]

Second, she should widen her age filter to include men 3 to 8 years older than her. The idea behind this is that chances are good that there will be more of them who are ready for marriage than she can find at or close to her own age.

Yes, very much so. Even just going up 2 years (to 24) might yield very good results. I think I’d even go up to 32, but probably not further than that.

Also, being willing to accept a man with a bit of a past will also yield more candidates (but obviously, one needs some discretion here).

If she is socially active, goes to grad school, is not restrictive about age and past sexual activity (but with some discretion), and dips into a little online dating on a well-chosen site, I think there’s no reason to despair before 30 and maybe not even then. It’s definitely too early to panic.

 

[Naskor]

So what happened at the small, wonderful, Catholic college? How did men treat her there? If it was a bad experience, I am wondering if it was so great after all. I agree with a previous poster that at your general secular college (one of which I went to) the dating scene was nonexistent. I have heard, though, that at some Catholic colleges students take dating quite seriously.

If she was at one that was not so great, I agree that she will probably be pleasantly surprised at dating after the college years. For everyone I know, that is exactly what happened.

Well I didn’t go to a Catholic college, but the university I went to had a newman center and there was no dating amongst it’s students. Most (in not all) of the single catholic men I’ve encountered wanted to be “friends first”. However, most of the girls tried being “the new girl”. The two different approaches were not reconcilable. Men didn’t want to date someone who wasn’t a friend but the girls though they were offended when a friend suddenly made a move. They felt that the men were deceiving them by doing it that way. The result was no one got any dates and none of the jaded students created or supported events for single catholic to meet up. It’s very sad.

In fact from what my mom says, it sounds like the newman center was a “no-date” zone back when my mom went to that same university!

 

[Xantippe]

Well I didn’t go to a Catholic college, but the university I went to had a newman center and there was no dating amongst it’s students. Most (in not all) of the single catholic men I’ve encountered wanted to be “friends first”. However, most of the girls tried being “the new girl”. The two different approaches were not reconcilable. Men didn’t want to date someone who wasn’t a friend but the girls though they were offended when a friend suddenly made a move. They felt that the men were deceiving them by doing it that way. The result was no one got any dates and none of the jaded students created or supported events for single catholic to meet up. It’s very sad.

In fact from what my mom says, it sounds like the newman center was a “no-date” zone back when my mom went to that same university!

Gah. Isn’t it funny that it’s the guys who want to be “friends first”? I know a professor involved with our local Newman Center, and I think I remember him saying something to the effect that our local Newman Center guys are not incredibly manly.

On the other hand, I understand not wanting to turn the Catholic Student center into a meat market.

I was in a big Evangelical student fellowship during college and there also wasn’t any dating there among the students (one set of missionaries eventually got married, though).

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Well, speaking as a man who hadn’t had a girlfriend by the time he graduated college, I can definitely say that the odds of the girl in the original post finding a boyfriend now are dramatically decreased now that she’s not going to be surrounded by single, career-oriented men her own age. Graduate schools are usually far smaller (and far busier) than colleges. If she hasn’t been in a serious relationship by now, she probably doesn’t have the skillset, social contacts, or personality traits that would facilitate one developing in the future, whether she’s open to premarital sex or not. I’m sorry that’s the way things turned out for her, but that’s just the way it is.

God doesn’t want us to be happy in this life. He wants us to constantly suffer so that we can be happy in the next one.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, speaking as a man who hadn’t had a girlfriend by the time he graduated college, I can definitely say that the odds of the girl in the original post finding a boyfriend now are dramatically decreased now that she’s not going to be surrounded by single, career-oriented men her own age.

**Yeah, people who don’t get engaged in college are destined to die alone.

(Actually only 28% of married graduates are married to people who went to the same college.)

usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/15/college-marriage-facebook/2989039/**

Graduate schools are usually far smaller (and far busier) than colleges. If she hasn’t been in a serious relationship by now, she probably doesn’t have the skillset, social contacts, or personality traits that would facilitate one developing in the future, whether she’s open to premarital sex or not. I’m sorry that’s the way things turned out for her, but that’s just the way it is.

Yeah, cause nobody ever learns any skills, makes any friends, or develops as a person after college. They’re frozen in time exactly as who they were spring of senior year.

God doesn’t want us to be happy in this life. He wants us to constantly suffer so that we can be happy in the next one.

**It’s time to order an old maid starter kit of cats and cat paraphernalia for the OP’s niece.

Holy cow!!!
**

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Well, speaking as a man who hadn’t had a girlfriend by the time he graduated college, I can definitely say that the odds of the girl in the original post finding a boyfriend now are dramatically decreased now that she’s not going to be surrounded by single, career-oriented men her own age. Graduate schools are usually far smaller (and far busier) than colleges. If she hasn’t been in a serious relationship by now, she probably doesn’t have the skillset, social contacts, or personality traits that would facilitate one developing in the future, whether she’s open to premarital sex or not. I’m sorry that’s the way things turned out for her, but that’s just the way it is.

God doesn’t want us to be happy in this life. He wants us to constantly suffer so that we can be happy in the next one.

Wow, it’s still very possible to meet someone in grad school. You are still taking classes with humans after all. Don’t discount online dating as a possibility as we’ll or perhaps some nice young man at church. Plenty of men aren’t in relationships when they leave college and do eventually end up married. You seem depressed…perhaps, a little counseling?

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s another thought for the OP’s niece:

As time has passed, I’m getting more and more leery of marriage right out of college. I think there are certain inherent problems in marrying somebody before you figure out that they are 1) unemployable 2) can’t get up before 10 AM and 3) a slob who doesn’t understand that somebody needs to wash those dishes/take the trash out/etc. and 4) would not be able to feed themselves adequately without a dining hall at hand In the college setting, these are not things that you would necessarily notice about somebody. It’s an unreal environment where other people are doing all of the hard work. A lot of college relationships do not, for a variety of reasons, survive the transition to real life.

Hence, there is a silver lining to not dating seriously during college. It’s much easier to get a read on somebody’s adequacy as a spouse after undergraduate. They’re working a real job (hopefully) rather than just talking about what they’re going to do, they have a home of their own (however humble), and you can see what kind of pet owner they are, whether their level of cleanliness is compatible with yours, and many other helpful things. Also, it’s a much more what-you-see-is-what-you-get situation toward the middle 20s.

 

[KatieM2]

Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I think she’s part right - she’s out of the running for the vast majority of young men in our world today. But she’s also near the head of the queue for the small number of men who share her faith, moral code and perspective of life.

Does she attend church regularly? Has she met any men there? How about faith-based dating sites? There are men who value premarital chastity as much as she does, and they will respect and admire her, and will be grateful for the chance to make her acquaintance.

 

[Estevao]

They might get too uppity?

No uppity is good, I need challenges to exercise my headship. It’s the wenches I want to avoid.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I can’t believe that this is even a question-OF COURSE women get passed up for more sexually available women all the time. Even in the world of secular dating, it is not uncommon for a man to lose interest in the woman he was chatting up when another woman who is willing to be more sexually flirtatious or open shows up.

And I’m positive that the niece is correct in that she is “losing” men to more available women. Let’s face it, when premarital sex was not the norm, or at least not publicly, a woman who wouldn’t have sex was less likely to get passed up for someone who would simply because there were fewer that would. And even if some of the women who were refusing sex were actually morally ok with it and were just saying no to protect their reputations, it was still one less woman to “compete” with. It even works the other way around. When I was dating, I would have said no to men who were not ok with premarital sex. But if the majority of men would have refused to engage in it, I probably would have had to settle for waiting until marriage. But does she really want someone who sees themselves as forced to settle for her?

But in the end, who cares if she’s missing out on these men? When I “lost out” on men to someone in a shorter skirt who threw a lot of innuendo into conversations, I was grateful. Some other woman was taking out the trash for me. If he is willing to pass up a conversation or a connection with you to take a chance on someone else because of sex, he’s not worth it. And if she wants to wait until marriage for sex and he doesn’t, how much are they really going to have in common when it comes to beliefs and values? Is that really a good start to a relationship or even marriage?

 

[SusanneT]

Hi forum! You guys have helped me in the past, and I periodically browse this site even though I haven’t posted in years. This is not a problem so much as a discussion that I had with a niece of mine that I would like some more Catholic thoughts on.

My 22 year old niece will be graduating from a small, wonderful, Catholic college in December, and from there, she’s on to graduate school . She is bright, funny, and very pretty. She was raised Catholic and has been very true to her faith all of her life. However, she has never had a boyfriend.

Her theory is that she “can’t compete” in the dating world because she won’t engage in any premarital sexual activity. From her point of view, all of the eligible men pass her over for women who will do more for them. I told her that this is not the case-that those men would not be a good match for her anyway and that they are doing her a favor by weeding themselves out. But she is still convinced that if “everyone else” would stop dressing immodestly and having sex, it would be easier for her to get attention.

I know that she is frustrated with her situation, and I know that she feels like no one will ever want to be with her. But this just isn’t true! I’m afraid that these thoughts will end up leading her to do things with men that she knows are wrong out of desperation. Is there anything I can say to her to make her understand that the men she thinks are “passing her over” wouldn’t have much in common with her anyway?

All I can say is that I think all of us felt like that at some point but when we did meet the right man who shared our beliefs and valued us for having held firm to our principles we did at last realise how important it was and were grateful to God for having given us the strength to resist earlier temptation.

 

[hwriggles4]

Gah. Isn’t it funny that it’s the guys who want to be “friends first”? I know a professor involved with our local Newman Center, and I think I remember him saying something to the effect that our local Newman Center guys are not incredibly manly.

On the other hand, I understand not wanting to turn the Catholic Student center into a meat market.

Being “friends first” is OK. I do know a few couples who were friends in college and married each other a few years later. It’s a good way to stay in touch.

One good priest I know encourages “friendship dating”, where you get to know someone for about three months before making a commitment. During those three months, you can go on coffee dates, lunch with friends, picnics, etc.

I was glad to hear about the number of marriages at Ave Maria University, but I’ve heard at places like Steubenville there isn’t much dating/courtship happening. That may have to do with the majors being offered, and the amount of people discerning priesthood or religious life. I’ve heard that there are twice as many women at Steubenville as men, so not every woman will be engaged to a classmate there.

I have a relative who went to the University of Dallas, and there were plenty of engagements at graduation. When I visit there today, I often see groups of students walking across the freeway to attend the 9:00 a.m. Mass at Cistercian, and many of them are opposite-sex couples holding hands, so that tells me that some dating and courtship is happening there. I do know that the University of Dallas does have more women than men, and some of the men (some, not all) who attend classes there are undergraduate and pre-theology seminarians.

I don’t know what the atmosphere is like at Christendom College, but I do know that Christendom is a solid university. Dating is allowed at Christendom (I do know years ago dating was NOT ALLOWED at Magdalen in New Hampshire, but that has changed with the new president) and every Sunday they have a Traditional Latin Mass, and a dress code on campus is enforced.

I have found (sadly) that some of the “Catholic Singles Groups” become no-dating zones, which is one reason I dropped out of one many years ago. I do find the Young Adult Groups to be a little more true to the magesterium, where the “Catholic Singles Groups” tend to be just people who get together for things like dancing, happy hour, and parties. A group needs to have some “meat and potatoes”, if you know what I mean.

 

[hwriggles4]

Tiny Tina:

Yes, I think your niece will have better luck if she goes to a place like a Catholic Student Center for Mass. I don’t know what her college major is, but Engineering often has more men, and the Engineers tend to be more conservative, so some of them may go to a Catholic Student Center.

If she’s in a graduate business program, some of the men there will probably pursue her.

Ask your niece to look up a Catholic Young Adult Group in the area. At 22, she should be a good “fit”. Some groups are set at 18 to 30, which will keep some of the older “socially awkward men” at bay.

Hope this helps.

 

[Xantippe]

Being “friends first” is OK. I do know a few couples who were friends in college and married each other a few years later. It’s a good way to stay in touch.

It’s an OK approach, but it’s not the only one that works, and “friends first” won’t work for everybody.

 

[Naskor]

Being “friends first” is OK. I do know a few couples who were friends in college and married each other a few years later. It’s a good way to stay in touch.

One good priest I know encourages “friendship dating”, where you get to know someone for about three months before making a commitment. During those three months, you can go on coffee dates, lunch with friends, picnics, etc.

All my friends who are still in solid relationships started off as nothing more than friends. Yet all my friends who are still single at our age, had a hard and fast rule of not dating within their social circles during their prime dating years.

I have found (sadly) that some of the “Catholic Singles Groups” become no-dating zones, which is one reason I dropped out of one many years ago. I do find the Young Adult Groups to be a little more true to the magesterium, where the “Catholic Singles Groups” tend to be just people who get together for things like dancing, happy hour, and parties. A group needs to have some “meat and potatoes”, if you know what I mean.

I’ve noticed this for my area too. If a singles group is ran by other singles it just becomes an acquaintance acquiring alliance. Tons of parties of and events but at the same time it’s consider tactless to ask out a women you meet at such events.